Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
GarethDavies1
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by GarethDavies1 »

Plenty of opportunities for pilots in China

Dahedd
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by Dahedd »

Murmurs from a friend at Lossie & from a work colleague whose "friend" works at Boeing that the other 2 will be ordered making it 5


Take it with a super large pinch of salt mind you.

Jdam
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by Jdam »

Hear of any time frames for these orders?

wargame_insomniac
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Let's hope so - three is just not enough for consistent coverage.

Jdam
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by Jdam »



Getting there.

bobp
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by bobp »

The sensible thing to do woukd be to order two more whilst the production line is open.
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GarethDavies1
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by GarethDavies1 »

ISD 2035 most probably following unforseen delay

tomuk
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by tomuk »

bobp wrote: 04 Nov 2022, 16:39 The sensible thing to do woukd be to order two more whilst the production line is open.
With what magic beans?

Jdam
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by Jdam »



Engines and most of the tail on the 1st aircraft with a lot of the modification along the top of the aircraft in place.

Looks like the 2nd aircraft also has the bracket for the radar installed. :thumbup:
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tomuk
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by tomuk »

Jdam wrote: 02 Dec 2022, 19:06

Looks like the 2nd aircraft also has the bracket for the radar installed. :thumbup:
Its not a bracket added to the fuselage they actually remove the whole upper fuselage section and replace it with a custom one shipped in from the states.

Image

SW1
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

It’s a series of fuselage frames with lug attachments (brkts if you like) at the top to attach the radar and fairing mounts, the new crown panel nests round that.

https://breakingdefense.com/2022/12/uk- ... -programs/

Elsewhere, an average supplier lead time increase of 244 days for E-7 parts has led Boeing to delay a first aircraft delivery to RAF Lossiemouth, Scotland, until 2024. The new schedule change comes after the RAF admitted in October 2022 that an original target of initial operating capability for the new early warning aircraft of 2023 had been delayed until 2024, without further elaboration.

As for the financial burden, in the hearing Keeling said that she was “not able to discuss” costs for the E-7 program as the MoD has still to sign off on the full business case, a key document that covers items like costs and schedule, expected to be approved in 2023.

“We were certainly set some cost savings to keep the program and that is what we are committed to delivering,” she explained.

Under the original order for five aircraft in 2019, Boeing and the UK agreed to a $1.98 billion deal, but there remains disquiet over E-7 project management issues. “It has sort of come to light that the budget for three aircraft is going to be not that dissimilar to the budget for five because of the gross underestimate of costs made by the MoD,”

dmereifield
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by dmereifield »

SW1 wrote: 02 Dec 2022, 21:44 It’s a series of fuselage frames with lug attachments (brkts if you like) at the top to attach the radar and fairing mounts, the new crown panel nests round that.

https://breakingdefense.com/2022/12/uk- ... -programs/

Elsewhere, an average supplier lead time increase of 244 days for E-7 parts has led Boeing to delay a first aircraft delivery to RAF Lossiemouth, Scotland, until 2024. The new schedule change comes after the RAF admitted in October 2022 that an original target of initial operating capability for the new early warning aircraft of 2023 had been delayed until 2024, without further elaboration.

As for the financial burden, in the hearing Keeling said that she was “not able to discuss” costs for the E-7 program as the MoD has still to sign off on the full business case, a key document that covers items like costs and schedule, expected to be approved in 2023.

“We were certainly set some cost savings to keep the program and that is what we are committed to delivering,” she explained.

Under the original order for five aircraft in 2019, Boeing and the UK agreed to a $1.98 billion deal, but there remains disquiet over E-7 project management issues. “It has sort of come to light that the budget for three aircraft is going to be not that dissimilar to the budget for five because of the gross underestimate of costs made by the MoD,”
FFS so we could end up with just 3?

SW1
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

dmereifield wrote: 03 Dec 2022, 08:43
SW1 wrote: 02 Dec 2022, 21:44 It’s a series of fuselage frames with lug attachments (brkts if you like) at the top to attach the radar and fairing mounts, the new crown panel nests round that.

https://breakingdefense.com/2022/12/uk- ... -programs/

Elsewhere, an average supplier lead time increase of 244 days for E-7 parts has led Boeing to delay a first aircraft delivery to RAF Lossiemouth, Scotland, until 2024. The new schedule change comes after the RAF admitted in October 2022 that an original target of initial operating capability for the new early warning aircraft of 2023 had been delayed until 2024, without further elaboration.

As for the financial burden, in the hearing Keeling said that she was “not able to discuss” costs for the E-7 program as the MoD has still to sign off on the full business case, a key document that covers items like costs and schedule, expected to be approved in 2023.

“We were certainly set some cost savings to keep the program and that is what we are committed to delivering,” she explained.

Under the original order for five aircraft in 2019, Boeing and the UK agreed to a $1.98 billion deal, but there remains disquiet over E-7 project management issues. “It has sort of come to light that the budget for three aircraft is going to be not that dissimilar to the budget for five because of the gross underestimate of costs made by the MoD,”
FFS so we could end up with just 3?
Unless something else goes to free up more money. It all goes back to the decision to buy 9 p8 at like with the wedgetail the budget or crews simply weren’t there and sentinel and the aew force are being cut to compensate.
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tomuk
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by tomuk »

dmereifield wrote: 03 Dec 2022, 08:43
SW1 wrote: 02 Dec 2022, 21:44 It’s a series of fuselage frames with lug attachments (brkts if you like) at the top to attach the radar and fairing mounts, the new crown panel nests round that.

https://breakingdefense.com/2022/12/uk- ... -programs/

Elsewhere, an average supplier lead time increase of 244 days for E-7 parts has led Boeing to delay a first aircraft delivery to RAF Lossiemouth, Scotland, until 2024. The new schedule change comes after the RAF admitted in October 2022 that an original target of initial operating capability for the new early warning aircraft of 2023 had been delayed until 2024, without further elaboration.

As for the financial burden, in the hearing Keeling said that she was “not able to discuss” costs for the E-7 program as the MoD has still to sign off on the full business case, a key document that covers items like costs and schedule, expected to be approved in 2023.

“We were certainly set some cost savings to keep the program and that is what we are committed to delivering,” she explained.

Under the original order for five aircraft in 2019, Boeing and the UK agreed to a $1.98 billion deal, but there remains disquiet over E-7 project management issues. “It has sort of come to light that the budget for three aircraft is going to be not that dissimilar to the budget for five because of the gross underestimate of costs made by the MoD,”
FFS so we could end up with just 3?
As it currently stands there isn't even a business case to buy three. The whole procurement seems in a mess. What MOD thought they were getting and what Boeing thought they were supplying when it was agreed to buy five with the money allocated for E3 upgrade seems to be the root of it. Hence the cut to three, the bare minimum. But it looks like three is still too expensive. The NAO report on this one is going to be interesting.

SouthernOne
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by SouthernOne »

SW1 wrote: 03 Dec 2022, 08:56
dmereifield wrote: 03 Dec 2022, 08:43
SW1 wrote: 02 Dec 2022, 21:44 It’s a series of fuselage frames with lug attachments (brkts if you like) at the top to attach the radar and fairing mounts, the new crown panel nests round that.

https://breakingdefense.com/2022/12/uk- ... -programs/

Elsewhere, an average supplier lead time increase of 244 days for E-7 parts has led Boeing to delay a first aircraft delivery to RAF Lossiemouth, Scotland, until 2024. The new schedule change comes after the RAF admitted in October 2022 that an original target of initial operating capability for the new early warning aircraft of 2023 had been delayed until 2024, without further elaboration.

As for the financial burden, in the hearing Keeling said that she was “not able to discuss” costs for the E-7 program as the MoD has still to sign off on the full business case, a key document that covers items like costs and schedule, expected to be approved in 2023.

“We were certainly set some cost savings to keep the program and that is what we are committed to delivering,” she explained.

Under the original order for five aircraft in 2019, Boeing and the UK agreed to a $1.98 billion deal, but there remains disquiet over E-7 project management issues. “It has sort of come to light that the budget for three aircraft is going to be not that dissimilar to the budget for five because of the gross underestimate of costs made by the MoD,”
FFS so we could end up with just 3?
Unless something else goes to free up more money. It all goes back to the decision to buy 9 p8 at like with the wedgetail the budget or crews simply weren’t there and sentinel and the aew force are being cut to compensate.
At least with the USAF program for 20+ aircraft commencing, there should be the option of buying two or three additional aircraft off the Boeing production line in the future. It will take time to deliver the USAF fleet, so that option will be there for some time.

tomuk
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by tomuk »

SouthernOne wrote: 03 Dec 2022, 21:54
SW1 wrote: 03 Dec 2022, 08:56
dmereifield wrote: 03 Dec 2022, 08:43
SW1 wrote: 02 Dec 2022, 21:44 It’s a series of fuselage frames with lug attachments (brkts if you like) at the top to attach the radar and fairing mounts, the new crown panel nests round that.

https://breakingdefense.com/2022/12/uk- ... -programs/

Elsewhere, an average supplier lead time increase of 244 days for E-7 parts has led Boeing to delay a first aircraft delivery to RAF Lossiemouth, Scotland, until 2024. The new schedule change comes after the RAF admitted in October 2022 that an original target of initial operating capability for the new early warning aircraft of 2023 had been delayed until 2024, without further elaboration.

As for the financial burden, in the hearing Keeling said that she was “not able to discuss” costs for the E-7 program as the MoD has still to sign off on the full business case, a key document that covers items like costs and schedule, expected to be approved in 2023.

“We were certainly set some cost savings to keep the program and that is what we are committed to delivering,” she explained.

Under the original order for five aircraft in 2019, Boeing and the UK agreed to a $1.98 billion deal, but there remains disquiet over E-7 project management issues. “It has sort of come to light that the budget for three aircraft is going to be not that dissimilar to the budget for five because of the gross underestimate of costs made by the MoD,”
FFS so we could end up with just 3?
Unless something else goes to free up more money. It all goes back to the decision to buy 9 p8 at like with the wedgetail the budget or crews simply weren’t there and sentinel and the aew force are being cut to compensate.
At least with the USAF program for 20+ aircraft commencing, there should be the option of buying two or three additional aircraft off the Boeing production line in the future. It will take time to deliver the USAF fleet, so that option will be there for some time.
As the nice lady from Boeing with her odd Aussie accent said at the recent Defence Committee meeting the only 'production line' currently is the one in the UK.

The US programme is for one rapid prototype for delivery in FY27 and a second to follow that. Also the US Air Force seem to be focusing on battlespace management and moving target indication contrary the AWACS focus of the current E7s. Whose to say in 2030 the by then production E7, if it goes into production, is anything like the UK version.

US Air Force press release:
A contract award is planned in fiscal year 2023.

The FY23 President’s Budget request includes $227 million in Research, Development, Test and Evaluation funds starting in FY23. These funds support the acquisition of a rapid prototype aircraft planned to deliver in FY27.

The notional schedule plans for a second rapid prototype aircraft funded in FY24, and a production decision in FY25 to continue fielding aircraft.
https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display ... apability/

Little J
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by Little J »

tomuk wrote: 03 Dec 2022, 22:48 ... Also the US Air Force seem to be focusing on battlespace management and moving target indication contrary the AWACS focus of the current E7s. Whose to say in 2030 the by then production E7, if it goes into production, is anything like the UK version.
And who is to say that by then we haven't changed what we want the aircraft to do at that time...?

tomuk
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by tomuk »

Little J wrote: 04 Dec 2022, 11:46
tomuk wrote: 03 Dec 2022, 22:48 ... Also the US Air Force seem to be focusing on battlespace management and moving target indication contrary the AWACS focus of the current E7s. Whose to say in 2030 the by then production E7, if it goes into production, is anything like the UK version.
And who is to say that by then we haven't changed what we want the aircraft to do at that time...?
I don't see our requirement for AWACS capability going away. If MTI was important to us why did we bin sentinel?

SouthernOne
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by SouthernOne »

tomuk wrote: 04 Dec 2022, 22:20
Little J wrote: 04 Dec 2022, 11:46
tomuk wrote: 03 Dec 2022, 22:48 ... Also the US Air Force seem to be focusing on battlespace management and moving target indication contrary the AWACS focus of the current E7s. Whose to say in 2030 the by then production E7, if it goes into production, is anything like the UK version.
And who is to say that by then we haven't changed what we want the aircraft to do at that time...?
I don't see our requirement for AWACS capability going away. If MTI was important to us why did we bin sentinel?
The USAF is buying the E-7 to replace the E-3, so the focus remains on airborne targets and the aerial battle space. Sentinel dealt with surveillance of the ground battle space, much like the USAF E-8 JSTARS platform. Like the RAF with Sentinel, the USAF is retiring its E-8 JSTARS without replacement, as it's no longer viewed as a survivable platform or mode of operation.

Publicly announced changes that the USAF will be making to the E-7 seem pretty minor, with some already in development for the RAAF upgrade program ie an open architecture battle space management systems that has already been flight tested on a RAAF plane.

tomuk
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by tomuk »

SouthernOne wrote: 05 Dec 2022, 00:56
tomuk wrote: 04 Dec 2022, 22:20
Little J wrote: 04 Dec 2022, 11:46
tomuk wrote: 03 Dec 2022, 22:48 ... Also the US Air Force seem to be focusing on battlespace management and moving target indication contrary the AWACS focus of the current E7s. Whose to say in 2030 the by then production E7, if it goes into production, is anything like the UK version.
And who is to say that by then we haven't changed what we want the aircraft to do at that time...?
I don't see our requirement for AWACS capability going away. If MTI was important to us why did we bin sentinel?
The USAF is buying the E-7 to replace the E-3, so the focus remains on airborne targets and the aerial battle space. Sentinel dealt with surveillance of the ground battle space, much like the USAF E-8 JSTARS platform. Like the RAF with Sentinel, the USAF is retiring its E-8 JSTARS without replacement, as it's no longer viewed as a survivable platform or mode of operation.

Publicly announced changes that the USAF will be making to the E-7 seem pretty minor, with some already in development for the RAAF upgrade program ie an open architecture battle space management systems that has already been flight tested on a RAAF plane.
Have you read the USAF press release I quote:
The Boeing E-7 is the only platform capable of meeting the requirements for the Defense Department’s tactical battle management, command and control and moving target indication capabilities within the timeframe needed to replace the aging E-3.

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by SouthernOne »

tomuk wrote: 05 Dec 2022, 04:33
SouthernOne wrote: 05 Dec 2022, 00:56
tomuk wrote: 04 Dec 2022, 22:20
Little J wrote: 04 Dec 2022, 11:46
tomuk wrote: 03 Dec 2022, 22:48 ... Also the US Air Force seem to be focusing on battlespace management and moving target indication contrary the AWACS focus of the current E7s. Whose to say in 2030 the by then production E7, if it goes into production, is anything like the UK version.
And who is to say that by then we haven't changed what we want the aircraft to do at that time...?
I don't see our requirement for AWACS capability going away. If MTI was important to us why did we bin sentinel?
The USAF is buying the E-7 to replace the E-3, so the focus remains on airborne targets and the aerial battle space. Sentinel dealt with surveillance of the ground battle space, much like the USAF E-8 JSTARS platform. Like the RAF with Sentinel, the USAF is retiring its E-8 JSTARS without replacement, as it's no longer viewed as a survivable platform or mode of operation.

Publicly announced changes that the USAF will be making to the E-7 seem pretty minor, with some already in development for the RAAF upgrade program ie an open architecture battle space management systems that has already been flight tested on a RAAF plane.
Have you read the USAF press release I quote:
The Boeing E-7 is the only platform capable of meeting the requirements for the Defense Department’s tactical battle management, command and control and moving target indication capabilities within the timeframe needed to replace the aging E-3.
Not sure what significance you're attaching to that terminology, as aircraft in flight are definitely "moving targets" that can't be tracked with current satellite technology. The trigger for USAF procurement of the E-7 seems to be have been the assessment that anticipated space based (satellite) systems will not be capable of detecting and tracking in flight aircraft for the foreseeable future.

Perhaps the RAF use different terminology to RAAF and USAF?

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by Mercator »

No, I just think there's confusion between AMTI and GMTI.

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by tomuk »

Mercator wrote: 05 Dec 2022, 08:20 No, I just think there's confusion between AMTI and GMTI.
AMTI isn't a really a thing airborne radars have been pulse doppler for years. Using MTI in the press release purely about detecting aircaft is very unusual.

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by Mercator »

tomuk wrote: 05 Dec 2022, 20:21 AMTI isn't a really a thing airborne radars have been pulse doppler for years.
Exactly. So the aircraft has that, at least. And when you consider the maritime surveillance modes the aircraft has, I wouldn't be surprised if there are surface modes using MTI capabilities. So just casually mentioning that the aircraft is capable of using MTI modes is not incorrect, yet I don't think it's trying to replace the E-8 JSTARS either. They would say so, explicitly, if that was the case. They have not. At best, IMHO, the USAF is looking to introduce some improved modes. Who knows? There's a lot software can do to tweak the performance of the radar.

Just my reading of the whole situation.

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