Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
Mercator
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by Mercator »

Boeing hopes for Wedgetail renaissance
https://www.australiandefence.com.au/ne ... enaissance

On the opening day of the Singapore Airshow on Tuesday, Boeing Senior Director of India, Asia and Pacific International Sales Randy Rotte said the company was looking towards a surge on sales for its E-7 Airborne Warning & Control (AEW&C) platform following the recent decision in the UK to order it and burgeoning interest in the US.

Rotte added that a US purchase of the aircraft would potentially allow the aircraft to be sold via the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) mechanism, rather than a Direct Commercial Sale (DCS), which he said has already seen renewed interest from potential customers.

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

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Well the 707 line was kept going long after airliner production was halted, so maintaining the 737 line for both E-7 and P-8 production would not be a unique situation. A USAF purchase would allow the RAF to purchase additional E-7s under FMS and probably at a reduced price, though additional P-8 would be my priority. NATO is also looking at the replacement of its E-3 fleet and has been looking at using the latest generation of Airbus 320 as the base, but if the USAF place a large order the European option maybe seen as too expensive. Airbus shot itself in the foot not pushing ahead with specialist military versions of the A320 like an MPA, decades ago when the idea first arose.
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

Tit bit from the equipment report

Following the 2021 Integrated Review, negotiations with Boeing continue to formalise the Programme schedule. The first aircraft to be modified arrived in the UK in January 2021 and STS Aviation was accredited by the Military Airworthiness Authority. The latest increment of the Ground Support Segment contract was let in December 2020 which includes provision of mission support equipment, the Air System Document Set and other technical activities. The arrival of the second aircraft arrived for conversion in autumn 2021. The delivery team continue to work with Boeing to resolve several issues with the Wedgetail configuration relating to obsolescence certification and interoperability, and it is the current intent to include resolution of these issues along with the schedule discussions in an omnibus contract amendment.

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

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The ongoing war may hopefully cause the RAF and MoD to revisit the E-7 programme and extend it to cover seven airframes instead of the current three. Seven was the number we needed to meet our commitments even when partnered with NATO's joint AWACS force. With just three we cannot do this and we cannot rely on NATO's aircraft to fill the holes as they are going to be busier then ever meeting their own tasks.
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

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I don't think anyone here would argue with 7 AWACS but its just feels more likely we would go back to the original 5 as we have not had the same reaction of some countries. Part of me thinks any large increase isn't going to happen and it will be a reversal of cuts instead.

Part of me always wondered if it would be the USAF decision on the aircraft that would determine if we got more, putting a couple of orders on top of the American bulk buy might save a few bob.
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

Pretty sure half the 7a/c e3 fleet was the U.K. contribution to the NATO e3 fleet so we didn’t have to pay money to it, hence why the sentry fleet was reduced to 4. NATO was the primary tasking authority not the raf. Wonder if e3 will be likewise or will it be on top off a payment to nato e3 fleet


On a potential US buy of wedgetail there is about as much chance of them buying the version were going to buy as I have going to the moon.

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

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SW1 wrote: 14 Mar 2022, 23:01On a potential US buy of wedgetail there is about as much chance of them buying the version were going to buy as I have going to the moon.
I think that's true, to an extent. Principal differences that I foresee are ESM and possibly the operating system. However, the proposed operating system (that the US will likely adopt) has already had a test flight in an existing Australian E-7A, so I don't think it's a huge mod, and Australia will probably incorporate it eventually and develop the conversion. ESM will probably be different, but it may be that the UK fit will be the same as the Australian version (it would be a gutsy move on the part of the UK to go their own way for so few airframes). It would not be difficult to mod the ESM system later, however. And again, Australia will probably develop a mod to incorporate the US system if there are benefits in doing so down the track.

Now it's true that the US could go wild and adopt a whole range of other differences to the Australian baseline, but you'd have to think that in the interests of deploying this capability quickly and reliably, both Boeing and the USAF will restrain themselves a bit more than usual. No one wants to repeat the tanker drama, I'd assume. Also, at the end of the day the E-7A is a mod to a baseline 737. Provided the US stick to the same 737, I don't see any particular difficulty in adopting the US mod at a later time, particularly when quite a lot is still bound to be the same. If they stick to the same radar hardware, it becomes even easier. So, from my perspective, I'm not too concerned that Australia and the UK will end up straying too far from the US versions. I think with a little bit of will and a modest amount of cash, five or six years down the track all the versions could merge.
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by Mercator »

See discussion of the new Open Mission System here:
https://www.defenceconnect.com.au/key-e ... nvironment

It may already be incorporated into the existing Australian systems upgrade – I honestly don't know. If it has been, it might have made it into the UK baseline as well. This may be what they are talking about above in that equipment report when they talk about "obsolescence certification and interoperability". Who knows?

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by Timmymagic »

Lord Jim wrote: 14 Mar 2022, 21:54 The ongoing war may hopefully cause the RAF and MoD to revisit the E-7 programme and extend it to cover seven airframes instead of the current three. Seven was the number we needed to meet our commitments even when partnered with NATO's joint AWACS force. With just three we cannot do this and we cannot rely on NATO's aircraft to fill the holes as they are going to be busier then ever meeting their own tasks.
If reports are accurate on the huge improvement that E-7's radar is over the existing E-3 fleet are true (and thats not including the new radar upgrade for E-7) E-7 is going to be a very in demand asset..

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by Jdam »

Seems this on gabs Twitter.



Do we know if this will be converted by STS?
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Jdam wrote: 19 Mar 2022, 17:12 Seems this on gabs Twitter.



Do we know if this will be converted by STS?
I know the 2021 defence white paper reduced the RAF order of Wedgetail from five to three aircraft. Do we know if this conversion from commercial airliner is one of those three? Or is this a quiet increase to the order following recent events? Hopefully the latter.....

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

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wargame_insomniac wrote: 19 Mar 2022, 19:44
Jdam wrote: 19 Mar 2022, 17:12 Seems this on gabs Twitter.



Do we know if this will be converted by STS?
I know the 2021 defence white paper reduced the RAF order of Wedgetail from five to three aircraft. Do we know if this conversion from commercial airliner is one of those three? Or is this a quiet increase to the order following recent events? Hopefully the latter.....
Two of the airframes are converted from aircraft outfitted as passenger airliners, with at least one formerly registered to Chinese airline Deer Jet. Not sure if either were ever in revenue service.

The other three were to have been factory fresh 737-NGs. Now only one, with the reduction to three airframes.
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

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[US] Air Force Mag: Fast Tracking the Wedgetail

https://www.airforcemag.com/article/str ... wedgetail/

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

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3 consortiums looking at NATO awac replacement program

https://www.nspa.nato.int/news/2022/nsp ... nd-control

* The Boeing ABILITI Consortium includes the following companies – ESG (DEU), Indra (ESP), Inmarsat (UK), Leonardo (ITA), Lufthansa Technik (DEU), Mott MacDonald (UK) and Thales (FRA).

* The Airbus and Northrop Grumman ASPAARO Consortium includes the following companies BAE Systems (UK), MDA Systems (CAN), Lockheed Martin (USA), Kongsberg Defence and Aerospace (NOR), GMV Aerospace (ESP), Exence S.A. (POL), and IBM (USA).

* General Atomics is not in a consortium but will include subcontractors namely; ViaSat (USA), Leidos (USA), Raytheon (USA), Rohde & Schwarz (DEU), Saab Sensis (USA), Sener Aerospatiale (ESP) and Leonardo (UK).

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

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Let Us Retire 50-Year Old Radar Planes, Air Force Asks Congress
https://www.defenseone.com/policy/2022/ ... ss/363679/

“We're going to be making that decision [of which aircraft to buy] sometime, I think, within the next several months,” Air Force Secretary Frank Kendall said Friday during a roundtable with reporters before the Pentagon’s budget request was sent to Congress on Monday. “We've got to take a look at requirements and do some market research...The leading candidate, quite obviously, is the E-7, but we want to do our due diligence.”

The Air Force asked lawmakers for permission to retire 15 E-3s, nearly half of its fleet. Replacing the E-3s will also require Congressional approval. In their 2023 budget request, Air Force officials are asking for $227 million to start retiring and replacing the Sentry, more commonly known as the airborne warning and control system, or AWACS, and easily recognized by the giant dorsal disc of its radar antenna. The Air Force began flying the E-3 in the 1970s, but it is based on the Boeing 707 airliner, a plane that first flew in the 1950s. Gen. Mark Kelly, the head of the Air Combat Command, recently quipped that the plane has difficulty flying “1/8 of a mile away from a [maintenance] depo—and that's with the finest sustainment enterprise on the planet.”

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

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Mercator wrote: 31 Mar 2022, 02:21 Let Us Retire 50-Year Old Radar Planes, Air Force Asks Congress
https://www.defenseone.com/policy/2022/ ... ss/363679/

“We're going to be making that decision [of which aircraft to buy] sometime, I think, within the next several months,” Air Force Secretary Frank Kendall said Friday during a roundtable with reporters before the Pentagon’s budget request was sent to Congress on Monday. “We've got to take a look at requirements and do some market research...The leading candidate, quite obviously, is the E-7, but we want to do our due diligence.”

The Air Force asked lawmakers for permission to retire 15 E-3s, nearly half of its fleet. Replacing the E-3s will also require Congressional approval. In their 2023 budget request, Air Force officials are asking for $227 million to start retiring and replacing the Sentry, more commonly known as the airborne warning and control system, or AWACS, and easily recognized by the giant dorsal disc of its radar antenna. The Air Force began flying the E-3 in the 1970s, but it is based on the Boeing 707 airliner, a plane that first flew in the 1950s. Gen. Mark Kelly, the head of the Air Combat Command, recently quipped that the plane has difficulty flying “1/8 of a mile away from a [maintenance] depo—and that's with the finest sustainment enterprise on the planet.”
I would like to see the RAAF attach itself to a US order of another 6 airframes with our last being accepted in 2012, as by the time we get the next lot the current airframes will be 15/20 years old
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

If the USAF adopt the E-7, the Airbus planned AEW&C platform is dead. NATO will not buy the latter as most nations besides France and possible Germany will see it as reinventing the wheel and more expensive and alternatives are already out there if people want to spend more and not buy the E-7.

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

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Yes, but if Russia is a mess by the time they get around to selecting its replacement (which could easily be five years down the track), they could choose a cheaper Swedish option, or heck, just get out of the business of AWACs altogether – at least at the NATO level. The more Russia remains a moderate threat, the more likely the E-7A will become. It's funny, but I'm kinda hoping the requirement fizzles out now.

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

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Lord Jim wrote: 31 Mar 2022, 23:49 If the USAF adopt the E-7, the Airbus planned AEW&C platform is dead. NATO will not buy the latter as most nations besides France and possible Germany will see it as reinventing the wheel and more expensive and alternatives are already out there if people want to spend more and not buy the E-7.
Also - the other advantage of buying a system that the Americans are buying in mass is good long term support, maintenance and upgrades. We learnt that lesson with the Apaches and the version that the British Army is now getting are pretty vanilla variants that the Americans also operate - so they are no longer gold plated and therefore will have a lower overall cost of ownership.

We should specialise in selective areas where we can generate and edge and generate the associated combat mass to go along with it.

Alot of EU origin systems do not achieve combat mass, esp German and French systems because the host manufacturing nations do not buy enough of the systems to build a support system that will lower total cost of ownership. They are trophy projects for national pride with a side view of exports.

This is why I think the UK should look to the USA for systems/platforms it does not want to make itself with a view of getting better and cheaper solutions that those from the EU.

For areas, where we want to maintain our own edge, eg Tempest - we will have more resources available as we can look to lower overall cost by not getting involved in EU projects which for the most part - tend to go nowhere fast...

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

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What are the chances of the USAF buying the standard E-7A version everyone else has, buying an off the shelf option doesn't scream USAF.
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

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Jdam wrote: 02 Apr 2022, 11:43 What are the chances of the USAF buying the standard E-7A version everyone else has, buying an off the shelf option doesn't scream USAF.
Absolutely zero. How will the military industrial complex make any money 8-) I'm sure Northrop will want to mod the radar. Boeing will have an issue keeping the 737NG line open so suggest a E7/P8 hybrid. And the USAF will come up with all sorts of additional requirements.
This new version will soon become the standard simply due to numbers leaving the RAAF, RAF and other users a difficult decision as to stick with their E7A or move to the US version.

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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

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tomuk wrote: 02 Apr 2022, 16:29
Jdam wrote: 02 Apr 2022, 11:43 What are the chances of the USAF buying the standard E-7A version everyone else has, buying an off the shelf option doesn't scream USAF.
Absolutely zero. How will the military industrial complex make any money 8-) I'm sure Northrop will want to mod the radar. Boeing will have an issue keeping the 737NG line open so suggest a E7/P8 hybrid. And the USAF will come up with all sorts of additional requirements.
This new version will soon become the standard simply due to numbers leaving the RAAF, RAF and other users a difficult decision as to stick with their E7A or move to the US version.
I think that's unlikely. I think 1) the USAF is serious when they say they need these right fuckin' now. A change of hardware, especially in the radar, will introduce years into the program. Even the ESM system, if they change it, will require quite a serious test program. At least that, though, I've seen done in less than a year (and it's a known quantity – Big Safari literally runs these mod programs continuously). 2) I think in light of the continuing KC-46 drama, there's very little appetite for risk within Boeing, let alone within the USAF. They won't go crazy on unique mods.

There are things they can and will change from what exists on the existing E-7A *currently*. But everything apart from an ESM change has most probably already been trialed to some degree. That's the operating system, the operator stations (mostly displays) and even some radar software mods. Have a look at some of the articles I've dumped in the thread above – they've been testing these things already. I'd be very surprised if most of these aren't included in the Australian upgrade and there is probably a very good chance they are included in the UK baseline. If not, it's just an upgrade. Only a different ESM would be something out of the blue for the type, and even then, I doubt it would be a brand-new system. It would most probably be something that already exists on Poseidon or has a previous life within Big Safari. It would be the sort of mod they could reasonably pursue at lowish risk. As for every other country that operates the E-7A, these are simply upgrades to the baseline 737 they already own. If the US and NATO consolidate on a particular baseline, there are real savings to upgrading to the same standard and I don't know why you would not. Especially early in the life of your aircraft.
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

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Boeing didn't knock this up out of nowhere in October last year. Bits of this are bound to be on the cards in the Australian upgrade that, in all likelihood, funded most of it. Even if the software is converging on a direction the US is pursuing across other programs, that's probably a feature, not a bug, to Australian capability managers.


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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

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I could quite easily imagine them getting bog standard E-7A's, but with a plan in place to upgrade to a 'B' version as soon as possible.
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Re: Boeing E-7 Wedgetail (RAF)

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