UK Shipbuilding

[Scimitar54]

So what is that:-
25 x Large / Support Ships.
25 x Escort Ships
50 x Minor Vessels
In other words100 x ships over a 25 year cycle.

Much too simplistic to me. IMHO I can see the following problems:-
Are either the numbers of each vessel type, or the total number actually required, or realistic?
A total lack of flexibility in what each yard is able to construct. (For example, if this strategy was followed some10-15 years ago, there would not now be any QEC Carriers).

Just for the record, as a guiding principle I would rather see 2 x Yards building Escorts (at the rate of 1 every 2 years) than 1 x yard building them at a rate of 1 per year. This would give us the capability to “double” the production of Escorts, should the need arise (in this ever more dangerous world). I would also take the same approach with both Large / Support and Minor Vessels.

[new guy]

So what is that:-
25 x Large / Support Ships.
25 x Escort Ships
50 x Minor Vessels
In other words100 x ships over a 25 year cycle.

Much too simplistic to me. IMHO I can see the following problems:-
Are either the numbers of each vessel type, or the total number actually required, or realistic?
A total lack of flexibility in what each yard is able to construct. (For example, if this strategy was followed some10-15 years ago, there would not now be any QEC Carriers).

Just for the record, as a guiding principle I would rather see 2 x Yards building Escorts (at the rate of 1 every 2 years) than 1 x yard building them at a rate of 1 per year. This would give us the capability to “double” the production of Escorts, should the need arise (in this ever more dangerous world). I would also take the same approach with both Large / Support and Minor Vessels.

yes, simplified for discussion.
QEC falls into the large category as does the amphibs.
As does OPV, MRSS, MCMV, Survey vessel e.c.t fall into minor vessels.
I spoke to others here and I too went for a 2 yard escort production, but many believed it unsuitable.

[Caribbean]

1 Escort @ £900m every 18 months approx £600m pa (£c.£33.3m/month)
1 large ship @ £600m every 24 months approx. £300m pa (c. £25m/month)
1 minor vessel @ £150m every 6 months approx. £300m pa (would also allow for 1 tier 2 escort at £450m every 18 months). c. £25m/month

Edit:

Over a 24-year cycle that would be

16 Tier 1 escorts
12 Large ships
8 Tier 2 escorts & 24 minor vessels

Which seems quite close to what is planned, though some of the large ships are civilian conversions for specialist jobs

[wargame_insomniac]

£1.2bn, across 3 yards.
Babcock for smaller stuff,
H&W for the large things,
Glasgow for the fighty things.

How would you split it?

1 ship per yard per year?
£400m each?
e.c.t.

what is that, 1 large ship / support ship, 1 escort ship, 2 minor vessels per year.

Making the assumption that you split it roughly 20%, 40%, 40%, and assuming that Tier One escort costs just rougly £800m to £1,000m, Tier Two escort costs roughly £400m to £500m, Tier Three patrol vessels costs roughly £200m to £250m, and that large support ship costs roughly £400m to £500m.

Then over a 30 years shipbuilding plan:

• With 40% of £1.2bn Budget, BAE Govan could make fifteen Tier One warfighting escorts, finishing one every two years e.g. 6*Destroyers followed by 9*ASW Frigates.

• With 20% of £1.2bn Budget, Babcock Rosyth could make a mixture of ten Tier Two global patrol escorts, finishing one every two years e.g. GP Frigates / Light Frigates, and Ten Tier Three patrol vessels / MCMV / MROSS, finishing one every year.

• With 40% of £1.2bn Budget, H&W Belfast could spend roughly 66% to 75% of time working for RN / RFA, and the balance on commercial work. That would allow them to make 10-12 support ships of the likes of the 3-4*tankers, 3*FSS, 2-3*LPD's, and 2-3 LSS (Logistics Support Ships i.e. Waves replacement e.g. BMT Ellida).

• H&W Appledore is a smaller yard and should be able to mainly survive on the myriad of larger boats and smaller ships that the commercial sector will need. But Appledore would be able to sub-contract and build modules for her Belfast sister company (it seems their specialism is doing the bow sections like they did on both carriers and will do on the forthcoming 3*FSS). If possible it makes sense to spread some of the work to them, especially if it avoids any of the other shipbuilders being unduly stretched.

Now I kept the above assumptions very rough and very simplified. If you want to rework these to to decimal places then please go for it. I presume that the carriers would have more than 30 year working life, but when they come to be replaced thn no doublt it will require another combined effort from all of the main UK shipyards pitching in to sub-contract and build modules. But so long as H&W Belfast and especially H&W Appledore get some commercial work, there should be enough work over a 30 year shipbuilding plan for all the above, provided that ships are ordered regularly enough to ensure that production drumbeat is maintained.

Where it falls down if some ships are pushed beyond the useful working life, requiring ever more expenive refits and maintenance, becuase of excessive delays in ordering new ships, also risking construction experiencing feast and famine rather the rythmic drumbeat of orders. Which has happened a lot in the past few years....

I ahev also avoided BAE Barrow because they will be doing their own thing, finishing off the Dreadnought Class SSBN bfore moving onto AUKUS SSN, with some componenents for Aussie build boats and then building ones for RN (hopefully more than 7*RN SSN).

[new guy]

Yes, I also left Barrow because it will be doing it's own thing, a.k.a all the subs.
As for appledore I would turn it into a Tier 3 (MCMV, MROSS, GPV, OPV, e.c.t) maintenance place as babcock does more and more construction and submarine deconstruction. This has been demonstrated with the MCMV's to Lithuania.

[wargame_insomniac]

Yes, I also left Barrow because it will be doing it's own thing, a.k.a all the subs.
As for appledore I would turn it into a Tier 3 (MCMV, MROSS, GPV, OPV, e.c.t) maintenance place as babcock does more and more construction and submarine deconstruction. This has been demonstrated with the MCMV's to Lithuania.

I agree that maller ships such as OPV / MCMV / MROSS etc would fit in better with Appledore than Babcock. But I felt thatwould have left Babcock lacking work and that they deserve to at least be able to quote for work such as the Tier 3 vessels, given the investment they made in the covered shipyard.

[new guy]

Yes, I also left Barrow because it will be doing it's own thing, a.k.a all the subs.
As for appledore I would turn it into a Tier 3 (MCMV, MROSS, GPV, OPV, e.c.t) maintenance place as babcock does more and more construction and submarine deconstruction. This has been demonstrated with the MCMV's to Lithuania.

I agree that maller ships such as OPV / MCMV / MROSS etc would fit in better with Appledore than Babcock. But I felt thatwould have left Babcock lacking work and that they deserve to at least be able to quote for work such as the Tier 3 vessels, given the investment they made in the covered shipyard.

I said maintenance base, not manufacturing. My plan is all smaller / tier 3 vessels at babcock.

[Jackstar]

Appledore Shipyard looks to hire 100 new workers.
https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-ne ... 00-8883493

[GarethDavies1]

Any concerns regarding shipbuilding with the last steel blast furnaces in UK likely to be shut down over the next year?

[SW1]

Any concerns regarding shipbuilding with the last steel blast furnaces in UK likely to be shut down over the next year?

We can’t make virgin steel anymore so wondered how that would affect in particular submarine construction and to an extent armoured vehicles too. Maybe we are just going to import it. 2000 jobs going too thanks to net zero madness.

[new guy]

Any concerns regarding shipbuilding with the last steel blast furnaces in UK likely to be shut down over the next year?

We can’t make virgin steel anymore so wondered how that would affect in particular submarine construction and to an extent armoured vehicles too. Maybe we are just going to import it. 2000 jobs going too thanks to net zero madness.

Totally net zero's fault, give the government is pumping offshore licences all over the place.

[tomuk]

Any concerns regarding shipbuilding with the last steel blast furnaces in UK likely to be shut down over the next year?

We can’t make virgin steel anymore so wondered how that would affect in particular submarine construction and to an extent armoured vehicles too. Maybe we are just going to import it. 2000 jobs going too thanks to net zero madness.

We import the steel already for armoured vehicles and ships and submarines. The current UK steelworks don't produce the required types.

[SW1]

Any concerns regarding shipbuilding with the last steel blast furnaces in UK likely to be shut down over the next year?

We can’t make virgin steel anymore so wondered how that would affect in particular submarine construction and to an extent armoured vehicles too. Maybe we are just going to import it. 2000 jobs going too thanks to net zero madness.

We import the steel already for armoured vehicles and ships and submarines. The current UK steelworks don't produce the required types.

We import all steel for those or just some at present? And out of interest where from?


And would it not be more beneficial for the economy to produce the required steels

[tomuk]

Any concerns regarding shipbuilding with the last steel blast furnaces in UK likely to be shut down over the next year?

We can’t make virgin steel anymore so wondered how that would affect in particular submarine construction and to an extent armoured vehicles too. Maybe we are just going to import it. 2000 jobs going too thanks to net zero madness.

We import the steel already for armoured vehicles and ships and submarines. The current UK steelworks don't produce the required types.

We import all steel for those or just some at present? And out of interest where from?


And would it not be more beneficial for the economy to produce the required steels

On T26 35% of the steel by weight is British, the other 65% is Swedish.

[SW1]

[new guy]

Idk, The austal 60 is probably like £50-100m.

[Tempest414]

Any concerns regarding shipbuilding with the last steel blast furnaces in UK likely to be shut down over the next year?

We can’t make virgin steel anymore so wondered how that would affect in particular submarine construction and to an extent armoured vehicles too. Maybe we are just going to import it. 2000 jobs going too thanks to net zero madness.

We import the steel already for armoured vehicles and ships and submarines. The current UK steelworks don't produce the required types.

We import all steel for those or just some at present? And out of interest where from?


And would it not be more beneficial for the economy to produce the required steels

On T26 35% of the steel by weight is British, the other 65% is Swedish.

We should be aiming for 50% of all ship building steel from the UK across all projects

[new guy]

?
No text?

[Tempest414]

?
No text?

Odd but what I said was we should be looking to have 50% UK steel in all UK ship building projects

Edit sorry my text got mixed up in tomuk's post

[wargame_insomniac]

This would be perfect for H&W Appledore and would increase the portfolio of UK ship designs that we could offer to potential export customers.

[new guy]

Good to have UK sovereign production of great design, but we ain't exporting to nobody when they could order strait from the source, the Aussie or Asian austal yards.

[new guy]

Also patrol 40, under £25m, or patrol 60, around £50m.

[Poiuytrewq]

More bad news for Cammell Laird.

[Poiuytrewq]

Keeping busy.

[Jackstar]