Jackal and Coyote MWMIK (Army)

[Poiuytrewq]

I think if 16AA and 9 of your ARU's had LRV 400 & 600 they would be in a great place

The LRV 400/600 is a great capability but it has limitations just like everything else.

How would the LRV perform against a peer force? How much appliqué armour can the suspension take?

How would it perform in the Artic and Sub Artic?

Everything has its place but what is the optimal mix?

HMT 400 with heavy appliqué armour and remote 30mm and javelin would be a big asset against a peer force. Flatbed configuration with rear weapons module could be transported individually by underslung Merlin or fully assembled by underslung Chinook.

HMT 600 again as a flatbed configuration with rear weapons modules for GMLRS, 105mm, 120mm mortar, Brimstone, CAMM, Starstreak plus 30mm or 40mm with Javelin etc.

So we could end up with 3rd division based around Ajax and Boxer and 1st division based around HMT 400 & 600 and LRV 400 & 600

Is it really beyond the Army to form 3 Divisions?

-Rapid Expeditionary Division
16AAB, 3 Cdo Bde, Rangers and form Gurkha Brigade
Based around LRV 400/600 and HMT 400/600

- 1st Divison
Fully wheeled mainly around Boxer and 155mm Archer.

-3rd Divison
Fully tracked around CH3, Ajax, tracked Boxer or CV90, M270 and a tracked AS90 replacement.

Commonality will save big bucks in the end.

Perhaps it’s time to put the RLC in charge of procurement?

Surely £12-£15bn for the Army per annum should enable a 3 Division structure.

[Tempest414]

I think if 16AA and 9 of your ARU's had LRV 400 & 600 they would be in a great place

The LRV 400/600 is a great capability but it has limitations just like everything else.

How would the LRV perform against a peer force? How much appliqué armour can the suspension take?

How would it perform in the Artic and Sub Artic?

Everything has its place but what is the optimal mix?

HMT 400 with heavy appliqué armour and remote 30mm and javelin would be a big asset against a peer force. Flatbed configuration with rear weapons module could be transported individually by underslung Merlin or fully assembled by underslung Chinook.

HMT 600 again as a flatbed configuration with rear weapons modules for GMLRS, 105mm, 120mm mortar, Brimstone, CAMM, Starstreak plus 30mm or 40mm with Javelin etc.

So we could end up with 3rd division based around Ajax and Boxer and 1st division based around HMT 400 & 600 and LRV 400 & 600

Is it really beyond the Army to form 3 Divisions?

-Rapid Expeditionary Division
16AAB, 3 Cdo Bde, Rangers and form Gurkha Brigade
Based around LRV 400/600 and HMT 400/600

- 1st Divison
Fully wheeled mainly around Boxer and 155mm Archer.

-3rd Divison
Fully tracked around CH3, Ajax, tracked Boxer or CV90, M270 and a tracked AS90 replacement.

Commonality will save big bucks in the end.

Perhaps it’s time to put the RLC in charge of procurement?

Surely £12-£15bn for the Army per annum should enable a 3 Division structure.

Moving over to the Future Army thread

[sol]

HMT400 fits in a Chinook - https://supacat.com/products/hmt/hmt400/

Yes it does (with new rollover bar probably not but it might be possible to temporary remove it I guess), yet The Parachute Regiment decided to switch from their Jackals back to LR WMIKs due their easier transportability. Just because something could be done it does not mean it is practical to do it.

[Poiuytrewq]

The Parachute Regiment decided to switch from their Jackals back to LR WMIKs due their easier transportability.

Fine against insurgents in a desert.

How would LR WMIKs perform against a peer opponent in the sub-artic?

[Repulse]

Horses for courses - my point was it already fits into a Chinook which I think is a really useful capability for a number of reasons - just one being OTH deployment from a LPD in a CSG.

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-l ... ect-convoy

[Tempest414]

Horses for courses - my point was it already fits into a Chinook which I think is a really useful capability for a number of reasons - just one being OTH deployment from a LPD in a CSG.

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-l ... ect-convoy

But why would they need a Jackal over say LRV 400 as the latter fits much better easier to get on off i.e on the move as soon as the ramp goes down were jackal needs a lot of faffing about to get it on and off lets face it a Chinook can't sit in a LZ for 15 mins while you faff about getting a Jackal off

[Tempest414]

The Parachute Regiment decided to switch from their Jackals back to LR WMIKs due their easier transportability.

Fine against insurgents in a desert.

How would LR WMIKs perform against a peer opponent in the sub-artic?

LR WMIK's will work in 90% of the combat zones the RRG needs to go and the RM have been operating LR's on Norway for decades

I would ask you how have Toyota Hilux's performed against superior forces all over the world

a LR WMTK's fitted with 12'7mm , 40mm GMG and Javelin or carrying a 81mm mortar team has a 2Km stand off range

[Poiuytrewq]

LR WMIK's will work in 90% of the combat zones the RRG needs to go and the RM have been operating LR's on Norway for decades

At what time if the year? During the Autumn, Winter and if it was a particularly wet spring they would be completely road based.

I would ask you how have Toyota Hilux's performed against superior forces all over the world

Depends on the terrain.

They work well in Africa and the Middle East but in the sub artic they are sub optimal.

a LR WMTK's fitted with 12'7mm , 40mm GMG and Javelin or carrying a 81mm mortar team has a 2Km stand off range

All good but the LRV and HMT just do it better. The addition of a third axle is a game changer. The off road performance is transformed especially with independent locking differentials.

The LandRover WMIK is last-generation, now it’s time for next-gen.

The third axle is the key requirement which the LR just doesn’t have.

[Tempest414]

LR WMIK's will work in 90% of the combat zones the RRG needs to go and the RM have been operating LR's on Norway for decades

At what time if the year? During the Autumn, Winter and if it was a particularly wet spring they would be completely road based.

I would ask you how have Toyota Hilux's performed against superior forces all over the world

Depends on the terrain.

They work well in Africa and the Middle East but in the sub artic they are sub optimal.

a LR WMTK's fitted with 12'7mm , 40mm GMG and Javelin or carrying a 81mm mortar team has a 2Km stand off range

All good but the LRV and HMT just do it better. The addition of a third axle is a game changer. The off road performance is transformed especially with independent locking differentials.

The LandRover WMIK is last-generation, now it’s time for next-gen.

The third axle is the key requirement which the LR just doesn’t have.

All year round we have all seen pictures of Land Army Rovers in the snow before and on ex in Norway

Yes the LRV 400/600 is the new gen of Land Rover based on a new Land Rover Discovery when it come to the weapons fit they are the same

Also Toyota Hilux's fitted with 12.7mm , 40mm GMG and rocket launchers are doing great work in Ukriane for the past year

[Repulse]

Horses for courses - my point was it already fits into a Chinook which I think is a really useful capability for a number of reasons - just one being OTH deployment from a LPD in a CSG.

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-l ... ect-convoy

But why would they need a Jackal over say LRV 400…

Because it is superior in a number of areas (armour and all terrain capabilities) as others have tried to explain to you.

The RM link I sent to you is a real life example where the RMs chose the Jackal - a force that could easily be lifted via a CSG + LPD group in one go.

[Tempest414]

Horses for courses - my point was it already fits into a Chinook which I think is a really useful capability for a number of reasons - just one being OTH deployment from a LPD in a CSG.

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-l ... ect-convoy

But why would they need a Jackal over say LRV 400…

Because it is superior in a number of areas (armour and all terrain capabilities) as others have tried to explain to you.

The RM link I sent to you is a real life example where the RMs chose the Jackal - a force that could easily be lifted via a CSG + LPD group in one go.

Yes Jackal can be moved by LPD and say 5 can be moved by LCU to the beach but it can also carry a CH2 but if you want to move 5 Jackals inside Chinooks you are looking as said 5 Chinooks be on the ground in a possible hot landing zone for no less than 15 mins I stood and watched both tests and by the way once you get it off you have to spend another 15 rigging it for combat

And as you were told 16AA handed back there Jackals for LR WMKI's due to the FACT Jackal did not work for Air Assault using Chinook

Now when it comes to moving kit and troops by Chinook I think 16AA and the Paras know a bit more than us Ah

And again as you were told just because something can be done dose not make it the best option

Also in the link you sent nowhere did it say the RM where air lilting Jackal anywhere at this time it was being used to escort fuel tankers for FRP a LRV 400 would have brought the same fire power and if they want a armoured vehicle that can be airlifted and go anywhere plus swim they already have Viking

[Tempest414]

So interesting that Supercat them self say that the latest HMT 400 can not fit in the latest Chinook

[Repulse]

Don’t be a dick - you seem to have a hard on for a particular vehicle when all that people are logically pointing out is that there are different vehicles with different capabilities. My scenario is as valid as anything you pull from your backside.

[Repulse]

So interesting that Supercat them self say that the latest HMT 400 can not fit in the latest Chinook

I didn’t hear the bit where he said it couldn’t - just that with additional armour on both the vehicle and helicopter range was compromised. Again horses for courses.

[Little J]

So, LRV (400 and/or 600) for Rapid deployment, with Jackal and Coyote getting to the front line ASAP... Job Jobbed

[Tempest414]

Don’t be a dick - you seem to have a hard on for a particular vehicle when all that people are logically pointing out is that there are different vehicles with different capabilities. My scenario is as valid as anything you pull from your backside.

Ho dear is someone upset that there fanboy wank wagon can't do what they hoped it would

All I have said is Jackal could be used by light mech units to be airlifted by C-17 and A400 but just because a Jackal was once fitted in a Chinook it is not practical day to day 16AA have said as much by handing back

and it is not what people are saying it is what you are saying dispite the what 16AA and supercat say

[jimthelad]

Jackal would be deployed by underslung load, not inside, the same is true for LR WMIK due to weapons mounts, and the need for the Helo to land and deploy a ramp.

Theatre entry was always supposed to be by RAF heavy transport (fixed wing) and medium Para sleds (or LAPES). Just saying.

[Repulse]

supercat say

But they didn’t did they - go back to your fantasy fleets ramblings it might calm you down

[Tempest414]

Jackal would be deployed by underslung load, not inside, the same is true for LR WMIK due to weapons mounts, and the need for the Helo to land and deploy a ramp.

Theatre entry was always supposed to be by RAF heavy transport (fixed wing) and medium Para sleds (or LAPES). Just saying.

Thank you that is what I have been saying

[Tempest414]

supercat say

But they didn’t did they - go back to your fantasy fleets ramblings it might calm you down

So at 3.44 in the video the interviewer said he understood that Jackal no longer fits in the back of a Chinook the rep goes on to say why without confirming. But it clear from your image that the Mk1 jackal was a tight fit in the HC4

It clear you don't like to be wrong as when someone point out something you don't like you get abusive

So yes Jackal can be underslung on Chinook but 16AA have looked at it and said no thank you we will go back to the lighter more pratical ( for them) LR MWIK now as these need replacing LRV-400/600 becomes a real option as it is British and based on a Land Rover Discovery with many common parts

As for your gib about fantasy fleets everything said on here even by you that has not happened or is not in the pipe line is Fantasy until it becomes reality

[Repulse]

Thanks for confirming that Supercat rep did not confirm which is what you stated.

It clear you don't like to be wrong as when someone point out something you don't like you get abusive

I suggest you go back over your posts and think about how we got to where we got in terms of tone.

[Tempest414]

Thanks for confirming that Supercat rep did not confirm which is what you stated.

It clear you don't like to be wrong as when someone point out something you don't like you get abusive

I suggest you go back over your posts and think about how we got to where we got in terms of tone.

And I would say back at you old boy

Now as said I did get to watch a Mk-1 Jackal being loaded into a Chinook and it was a faff and it had to be de-rigged to fit coming off was as hard now as said the Mk-2 is a bit bigger and some what heavier than the Mk-1. Also as said if the new roll over bar dose not come off then it will not fit as you will see looking at the picture you posted the jackal had the old roll over bar witch is a lot flatter and had about 10cm clearance the new bar stands somewhat higher

I would say we both have to try harder to not lock horns

[SW1]

[RunningStrong]

Surely this has to be considered part of MRV-P?

[Little J]

Was thinking (dangerous I know)...

Does anybody remember the AWD MTL 33 Multidrive artic from the late 80's / early 90's? It was a four wheeler tractor unit with a 4 wheel trailer, the trailer wheels where drive by a prop shaft from the tractor unit, making it all wheel drive.

If Supacat does an electric drive version of the HMT, they could also make an (electrically) driven trailer. Conversion from 4x4 to 6x6 would be easier, just "plug-in" the extra axle. Need a trailer? Plug that in too, instant extra mobility... Thoughts?