UK Satellite Navigation System

Contains threads on equipment developed by the UK defence and aerospace industry, but not in service with the British Armed Forces.
matt00773
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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

Post by matt00773 »

Australia showing interest in the UK satellite proposition:

http://www.australiandefence.com.au/new ... eplacement

Australia has recently started their own space agency and are looking into developing many space capabilities.

https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/the-new-space-race/

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Quoting facility did not work for this one:
"
The US may not forbid the UK to use GPS, but there is the possibility that GPS has been compromised."

There's always GLOSSNAS to fall back upon :D

It is not about forbidding; the new GPS will have two separate signals (M for military)
- M is not only more difficult to disturb, it also provides more accuracy (remember: getting Tomahawks to fly through Saddam's window)
- but it also needs a dedicated receiver as it is coded, to be of no use for the OpFor. Those receivers are a huge investment - because so many will be needed - for the US military, but puts them in the position of " for connosseirs only"
- it also gives the option to "blur" the accuracy of the other signal, so it would be of no use for weapons guidance (but supertankers could still avoid hitting rocks)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

Post by abc123 »

I ask you again, can you imagine the world where UK and Australia are blocked by the US from using the GPS same as their armed forces?

I can't.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

Post by Caribbean »

abc123 wrote:I ask you again, can you imagine the world where UK and Australia are blocked by the US from using the GPS same as their armed forces?
GPS compromise is the more likely scenario, as in signal spoofing (which is known to have been used by the Iranians) etc. The US may also decide, for it's own reasons, to switch the signal off, without warning (for instance, to disable an enemy attack that it believes is relying on GPS for guidance and positioning). Having alternative technologies available to use simultaneously also makes the job of the "hacker" considerably more difficult, since they can be used to verify each other. Galileo would have been fine, but becomes effectively useless if the UK is to be prohibited from using the PRS service, since PRS is reserved to members of the EU and the open service can be switched off during times of crisis.

As I say, I believe that this is primarily part of a UK bargaining position with the EU. I muttered a few days ago about how it could be "inconvenient" if certain IP was to be UK owned - and yesterday the Government issued notice to all the involved UK companies warning them that transfer of IP, hardware and services etc to European bodies might result in the withdrawal of their security clearances (and thus exclusion from future Government contracts). This applies to Airbus, whose UK subsidiary operate the ground control service for Galileo in Portsmouth, and SSTL, who have built quite a few of the satellites, as well as many others involved in building components and designing the technology behind Galileo.

One hopes that the EU will see sense, since the UK is quite capable of both going it alone and, by simply by accepting what the EU is threatening to impose on the UK, capable of potentially setting back the Galileo project by many years and many billions of Euros. Frankly, not a clever bargaining ploy by the EU.
ArmChairCivvy wrote:Quoting facility did not work for this one:
"
The US may not forbid the UK to use GPS, but there is the possibility that GPS has been compromised."

There's always GLOSSNAS to fall back upon :D

It is not about forbidding; the new GPS will have two separate signals (M for military)
- M is not only more difficult to disturb, it also provides more accuracy (remember: getting Tomahawks to fly through Saddam's window)
- but it also needs a dedicated receiver as it is coded, to be of no use for the OpFor. Those receivers are a huge investment - because so many will be needed - for the US military, but puts them in the position of " for connosseirs only"
- it also gives the option to "blur" the accuracy of the other signal, so it would be of no use for weapons guidance (but supertankers could still avoid hitting rocks)
Wasn't "selective availability" (the "blurred" civilian signal) switched off in Clinton's time. The newest generation of GPS satellites are alleged to not even be capable of implementing "selective availability". If that is correct, then US control is simply "signal on" or "signal off". Though, to be fair, I find it hard to believe that the US hasn't reserved a more granular level of control to itself.
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

abc123
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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

Post by abc123 »

Caribbean wrote: Frankly, not a clever bargaining ploy by the EU.

Wasn't "selective availability" (the "blurred" civilian signal) switched off in Clinton's time. The newest generation of GPS satellites are alleged to not even be capable of implementing "selective availability". If that is correct, then US control is simply "signal on" or "signal off". Though, to be fair, I find it hard to believe that the US hasn't reserved a more granular level of control to itself.

Agreed on both points.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Pumping for information ;)
" If that is correct, then US control is simply "signal on" or "signal off". Though, to be fair, I find it hard to believe that the US hasn't reserved a more granular level of control to itself."
Why do you think the coded and not-coded signals have been implemented in parallel?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

Post by Caribbean »

Ding, ding! Round 3

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5906949/b ... on-threat/

There's also an FT article, but all the google links I can find lead back to the paywall, so I can't access it.
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Why does "quote" NOT work on this thread??

Anyway... ding; dong: what is a better topic for the Putin-bots for sowing confusion and division?
- made my own stand clear earlier, no need to repeat

But for once , The Sun is informative:
"Ministers will hit back with a pledge to turn off key infrastructure for it on the Falklands, Ascension Island and Diego Garcia."

So, rather than directing any remarks to the wider EU/ Brexit liaison, the little bureaucrats that tried to cut the corners here, to make themselves look more important, are going to be lined up, against the wall... by a good number of member states
- not shot
- only mugshots to be taken... should they reoffend!
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

Post by SKB »

does work

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

Post by dmereifield »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-45314954

Seems like this is moving forward, an announcement due this week for £100 million for a feasibility study....

Is it merely a negotiating tactic to try to remain a full participant in Galileo?

How much would a rival system cost? I've seen £3 billion estimated...

Is it a worthwhile endeavour and value for money (at ca. £3 billion)?

It would certainly be a shot in the arm for the UK aerospace industry...one would hope that the money doesn't come from the already stretched defence budget

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

Post by serge750 »

Well if we the UK do proceed with our own system, would that not help with getting our planned "space ports" up & running?

Still hoping for Skylon/hotal space plane soon..... :clap:

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

Post by bobp »

Any government investment in research is welcome, especially in making satellites resistant to jamming. The UK is a world leader in small satellite construction, do we need another GPS system, most definitely, but can we afford it is another question.

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

Post by Cooper »

bobp wrote:do we need another GPS system, most definitely, but can we afford it is another question.
Why do people look at this as a one way street when it comes to the cost of a sovereign GPS network?

The potential revenues that can be earned from such a system is huge.

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

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I was just watching live the parliamentary debate on the future relationship with the EU and was surprised the PM state that the UK was not getting the access to Galileo it needed and would go it alone on a rival system. I have to say I wasn't following this development and assumed that access would be given as part of the future arrangement. Lots of opportunities though and overall this could be a good thing.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... de-juncker

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

Post by matt00773 »

For some reason the news of UK's exit from the Galileo programme hasn't been picked up by the media - perhaps not important enough? As there's no credible news report for this yet, I've managed to trawl through the parliamentary session video and transcribed the relevant statements on Galileo below:

https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/9 ... n=16:19:10

16:19:10

Responding to a question on NATO and security:

PM: "...we have had to take some decisions, a key decision, about some future capabilities, as she will be aware, in relation to Galileo, where what was being offered from the EU would not have given us sufficient ability to be part and participate in that particular system, and that's why we decided to take our own decision and to go it alone on that particular area."

https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/9 ... n=17:06:20

17:06:20

Question from Labour member: "Earlier this afternoon the PM admitted to this house that she had failed to negotiate Britain's continued involvement in the Galileo satellite project. Can she tell the house how much it will cost this country to develop an alternative because of her failure."

PM: "Can I say to the honourable gentlemen that in any negotiation there are two sides to that negotiation - now there are reasons why the EU did not want the UK to be able to be part of Galileo on the basis on which we felt it was right for us to participate. Now at that point there's a decision to be taken. I suggest to the honourable gentleman that the real failure would have been to have said that we would have remained in Galileo on the basis that did not permit us to have guarantees in relation to our security. Better for us to say we will do it ourselves and ensure that security."

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

Post by NickC »

In a hot war, China/Russia, would expect all the large GPS satellites to be quickly converted into space debris.

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

Post by Qwerty »

In a hot war with either Russia or China, there wouldn’t be anyone left to use it

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

Post by RetroSicotte »

That reply from May is about the most "keep talking without making any counterpoints until you sound official enough" answer I've seen in a while.

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

Post by Timmymagic »

It's an easy assumption to make that GPS, Galileo and the proposed UK system would be 'space dust' in a hot war. But....how many low earth interceptors could the Russian's actually field. The cost and launch requirements would be crippling. No way the Russians for example could take out all, or even a majority of the GPS, Galileo, UK GNSS and all the other interesting low earth orbit targets. They couldn't afford all of the missiles necessary....

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

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Well I think that this conversation of knocking out satellites is all well and good but I think the news here is important and that is that the UK will develop its own navigation satellite system. The question is will the UK truly go it alone or join up with other like-mined countries wishing to pursue the same thing - Japan, Australia, Canada, India etc. How much will it all cost?

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

Post by dmereifield »

matt00773 wrote:Well I think that this conversation of knocking out satellites is all well and good but I think the news here is important and that is that the UK will develop its own navigation satellite system. The question is will the UK truly go it alone or join up with other like-mined countries wishing to pursue the same thing - Japan, Australia, Canada, India etc. How much will it all cost?
I remain doubtful of any programme materialising until it is announced and a budget has been made available....

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Just posturing
"I remain doubtful of any programme materialising".

Something that this gvmnt does a lot of.

We need a new low-orbit system anyway, and that can be started under the "same heading". And there is a commercial reward for doing that:
" The U.K. currently produces about 44 percent of the world's small satellites and has extensive facilities to operate those satellites once active. But Britain lacks any spaceports or launchpads to put the satellites in orbit." And currently we are focused on the payloads, not the launch vehicles.
- interestingly, if you think of all those 'maps' which show the world lit-up according to where either economic activity or commercial flights are taking place, being that much North of the Equator that we are (Scotland, should any launches misfire ;) and come tumbling back down, so that they will hit just sea and nothing else) is ideal for reaching the right low orbit
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

Post by dmereifield »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Just posturing
"I remain doubtful of any programme materialising".

Something that this gvmnt does a lot of.

We need a new low-orbit system anyway, and that can be started under the "same heading". And there is a commercial reward for doing that:
" The U.K. currently produces about 44 percent of the world's small satellites and has extensive facilities to operate those satellites once active. But Britain lacks any spaceports or launchpads to put the satellites in orbit." And currently we are focused on the payloads, not the launch vehicles.
- interestingly, if you think of all those 'maps' which show the world lit-up according to where either economic activity or commercial flights are taking place, being that much North of the Equator that we are (Scotland, should any launches misfire ;) and come tumbling back down, so that they will hit just sea and nothing else) is ideal for reaching the right low orbit
Well let's hope this I'm useless government (Or the next one, which could come rather soon) gets on with it

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Talking about MoD's satellites (GPS services so far have been separated from these) specifically, only one of the main contenders have their production here (which clinched the deal, and in these new but still evolving circumstances seems to have been a decision with foresight):
"

Boeing, Lockheed Martin and Thales Alenia Space have been lobbying hard to challenge the dominance of Airbus here, and all three companies were pitching for a competition on Skynet 6A.

The three companies, along with Airbus, responded to an MoD capability questionnaire last year, and British officials have visited satellite facilities in the U.S. and Europe to assess security, the ability to meet sovereignty and U.K. industrial base requirements as well as other issues ahead of making the decision in favor of Airbus."
- 6A is just an interim solution, so the latter steps can be expanded or otherwise modified
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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