UK Satellite Navigation System

Contains threads on equipment developed by the UK defence and aerospace industry, but not in service with the British Armed Forces.
dmereifield
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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

Post by dmereifield »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Who else except you has said that? "So why is this rethink negative?"
So you don't think it's negative?

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

C'on
... the first law in economics is that "more is better"

The second law is that if it is about cost, the first law does not apply :) .

Trump is doing exactly the same:
1 Rah-rah about Huawei and 5G
2 Someone told him that the cupboard is bare (they had to tell him twice; 1.5 years ago he knocked the remedy down)
3 Now he is proposing it in his own name (the genius and all :lol: )
4 Namely (as per WSJ): buy Nokia, Ericson... or both
5 As you can't just say "don't do" when not having a clue about what to do instead
... especially if you are preaching to others (with the help of some thumb screws... to add credibility to 'the story')
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

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It's this part I love (BBC's wording):
"The prime minister has agreed to put up about £500m of taxpayer money for the purchase, as part of a larger private sector consortium bid, the BBC understands."

A bailing in... rather than the normal, miserable outs!

But rather than being a heroic achievement, it would be a feat of pulling back from the brink:
- who was contracted to build most of the nxt-gen Galileo satellites? The UK! - though through an Airbus subsidiary (not carrying their name)
- who blew that deal (won't mention any names)
- who is a major owner in the company that we are now trying to buy in? Airbus
- what is the UK condition for the deal? To bring satellite making from Florida to the UK

I even suspect I am seeing Rishi's hand in this (not an " F the Biz" man ;) )
- put in £ 500 mln; not 5 bln
... and on "the" deal:
get satellite industry's 'skin in the game' rather than always skinning the tax payer, through lacking strategic insight combining with nationalistic bravado/ bombast and simply abysmal prgrm/project mgt (which - the last of the list - we tend to discuss a lot on these pages)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

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ArmChairCivvy wrote:It's this part I love (BBC's wording):
"The prime minister has agreed to put up about £500m of taxpayer money for the purchase, as part of a larger private sector consortium bid, the BBC understands."

A bailing in... rather than the normal, miserable outs!

But rather than being a heroic achievement, it would be a feat of pulling back from the brink:
- who was contracted to build most of the nxt-gen Galileo satellites? The UK! - though through an Airbus subsidiary (not carrying their name)
- who blew that deal (won't mention any names)
- who is a major owner in the company that we are now trying to buy in? Airbus
- what is the UK condition for the deal? To bring satellite making from Florida to the UK

I even suspect I am seeing Rishi's hand in this (not an " F the Biz" man ;) )
- put in £ 500 mln; not 5 bln
... and on "the" deal:
get satellite industry's 'skin in the game' rather than always skinning the tax payer, through lacking strategic insight combining with nationalistic bravado/ bombast and simply abysmal prgrm/project mgt (which - the last of the list - we tend to discuss a lot on these pages)
All sounds positive to me

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

Post by SW1 »

I think it is a positive it’s a interesting technology, the idea that you potentially enhance coverage in certain areas of the world relatively quickly if you could build and perhaps store some of these mini satellites is interesting.

Also interesting is this

https://www.business-live.co.uk/technol ... 480934.amp

The European Space Agency (ESA) has picked Leicester to launch a branch of its Business Incubation Centre for space tech start-ups.

The agency is extending what has been called the biggest programme of its kind in the world to Space Park Leicester, the £100 million research and business facility being built in the shadow of the National Space Centre.

I do particularly dislike this narrative that surrounds all these decisions were it leads to brexit. We voted to leave a political arrangement we did not nor do we intend to leave “Europe“ its the region of the world that the landmass is in. We still will actively work and engage with multinational company’s that operate across Europe and the world, the more business friendly we become the better, especially in encouraging and investing in innovations and tech development the more companies will want to come here.

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

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Somewhat disappointingly, the UK seems to have purchased a minority stake (45%), with Indian Telecoms giant Bharti taking the majority....

According to the BBC article Jonas posted in the other thread.

Not clear what the terms are, or what the intention is for UK Government, but it's better than nothing I suppose...but why sign up as a minority stakeholder? Why not spend an extra 15- 20% and take the majority???

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

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I can see...
a 5-eyes review (a US one) coming

But already the previous Gvmnt was hot on 'programmers from Delhi'
- do we not have any?... a sidetrack, sorry
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

Post by Lord Jim »

Well it looks like the Government is doing an about face on the involvement of Huawei in our 5G network so maybe some bridges can be rebuilt or at least patched up with some of out allies. As for Europe, I see French Industry being very keen to cut us out of many things but then again I do get paranoid about Europe stitching up up due to BREXIT.

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

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https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-g ... te-network

According to HMG, they led the consortium and stumped up the same amount of cash as Bharti, so it would be even more disappointing if they end up with a minority stake.

"Government-led consortium’s ownership of OneWeb strengthens UK’s place on the world stagegovernment will provide $500 million to deliver first UK sovereign space capability, alongside $500 million from Bharti Global"

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Bharti will provide the company commercial and operational leadership, and bring OneWeb a revenue base... he-heh; what is a "revenue base"?

" it would be even more disappointing if they end up with a minority stake."
- weally? Some people can't see when we (potentially) get something for free... see upthread

If I was in the Gvmnt, I would ask the Biz Sec and the Chancellor, jointly, to announce the end to us subsidising the Indian space prgrm
... now that we are actually becoming (?) a player
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

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Forbes all at sea (of course they have covered all the bases):

"At a height of 1,200 kilometers, OneWeb’s satellites could conceivably be repurposed for a similar job, allowing the U.K. to have its replacement for Galileo that it desires, but there are significant challenges to doing so.

One industry executive told the Financial Times that it “would be like trying to build a hybrid of a Formula 1 racing car and a dump truck.” And Bleddyn Bowen, a space policy expert at the University of Leicester, told The Guardian the U.K. had “bought the wrong satellites.”"

~~~~~~~~~~~~
OK, let's get real:
- a massive "face saving" operation... is $500 mln vs. £ 5bn massive :lol:
"The proposed sovereign Global Navigation Satellite System (GNSS) etc, etc..."

Second, all these commentators have no idea what the satellites will be used for

Third, some ' recognised scientists' that might even be allowed to roam free in the UK have had/ expressed their doubts as for how good the "GPS" from LEOs actually would/could be
... may be that is not "the beef" though ?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

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ArmChairCivvy wrote:Forbes all at sea (of course they have covered all the bases):

"At a height of 1,200 kilometers, OneWeb’s satellites could conceivably be repurposed for a similar job, allowing the U.K. to have its replacement for Galileo that it desires, but there are significant challenges to doing so.

One industry executive told the Financial Times that it “would be like trying to build a hybrid of a Formula 1 racing car and a dump truck.” And Bleddyn Bowen, a space policy expert at the University of Leicester, told The Guardian the U.K. had “bought the wrong satellites.”"

~~~~~~~~~~~~
OK, let's get real:
- a massive "face saving" operation... is $500 mln vs. £ 5bn massive :lol:
"The proposed sovereign Global Navigation Satellite System (GNSS) etc, etc..."

Second, all these commentators have no idea what the satellites will be used for

Third, some ' recognised scientists' that might even be allowed to roam free in the UK have had/ expressed their doubts as for how good the "GPS" from LEOs actually would/could be
... may be that is not "the beef" though ?
It won't end at $500, according to reports it'll cost billions more to complete the network of satellites. So we can expect the Governmwnt to have to invest another €billion, at least.

I suppose if HMG can share in the future revenues that's useful, but will they be sufficient to make it "free"?

From what I've read the main issue that the apparent experts seem to suggest is that with LEOs there would need to be hundreds of satellites to provide sufficient accuracy. Well, there's supposed to be a network of ca. 600...so?

Are these satellites suitably sized so that they (some at least) could be launched from either the Scottish or Cornish space port?

Lastly, it would be really interesting is to find out what the terms of the agreement are. Will the military aspects be shared, or will that belong exclusively to HMG,.with suitable firewalls in place? How much of the work/tech/launches/IP will come to the UK vs staying in the US and/or relocating to India?

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

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According to Bloomberg:

"The U.K. government and Indian telecommunications tycoon Sunil Mittal won an auction for bankrupt satellite operator OneWeb, taking Britain a step closer to relaunching its post-Brexit space ambitions.

An arm of Mittal’s Bharti Enterprises Ltd.conglomerate and the U.K. will each commit $500 million in a deal expected to close by year end, the bidders said in statements on Friday. Each bidder will get a 45% stake in OneWeb with existing investors retaining 10%, a person familiar with the deal said."

So it would seem that the UK has an equal stake to Bharti, making both the largest share holders. Better than my original assumption that Bharti held a majority. Bloomberg also states that Airbus were among the original shareholders, presumably now holding a piece of the remaining 10% stake, which would be why Airbus provided a supportive statement on the deal preciously

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

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All good questions; an interesting story all in all.

" Airbus were among the original shareholders, presumably now holding a piece of the remaining 10% stake, which would be why Airbus provided a supportive statement on the deal preciously"
- guess who would make the satellites (if the move from Florida to the UK will be realised)?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

Post by Caribbean »

dmereifield wrote:Are these satellites suitably sized so that they (some at least) could be launched from either the Scottish or Cornish space port?
They are 150kg and a minimum folded volume of 48 x 52 x 52 cm, if that helps

Edit: and if I read it right, are normally deployed into a polar orbit
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

Post by dmereifield »

Caribbean wrote:
dmereifield wrote:Are these satellites suitably sized so that they (some at least) could be launched from either the Scottish or Cornish space port?
They are 150kg and a minimum folded volume of 48 x 52 x 52 cm, if that helps

Edit: and if I read it right, are normally deployed into a polar orbit
Thanks

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

Post by SKB »


(Scott Manley) 3rd July 2020
After declaring bankruptcy earlier this year satellite network Oneweb has been rescued with a surprise, Billion dollar investment by the UK government and Bharti Global.

More curiously, there are suggestions that the people behind the deal might be justifying the investment based on Oneweb being able to provide geolocation technology to replace Britain's lost secure access to Galileo.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-g ... te-network

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

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https://www.aerosociety.com/news/oneweb ... nvestment/

PAT NORRIS FRIN FRAeS (member of the RAeS Space Specialist Group Committee) looks at the UK proposal to invest in the OneWeb satellite constellation to create a LEO satellite navigation system. A potential chance to steal a technology lead or throwing good money after bad?

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

Post by bobp »

Whatever the outcome regarding Sat Navigation, having a stake in a global communications system cant be a bad thing, especially for areas with poor coverage such as the poles and desert regions.

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

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https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/0 ... avigation/

Now, research funded by the US Army has concluded that the growing mega-constellation could have a secondary purpose: doubling as a low-cost, highly accurate, and almost unjammable alternative to GPS. The new method would use existing Starlink satellites in low Earth orbit (LEO) to provide near-global navigation services.

In a non-peer-reviewed paper, Todd Humphreys and Peter Iannucci of the Radionavigation Laboratory at the University of Texas at Austin claim to have devised a system that uses the same satellites, piggybacking on traditional GPS signals, to deliver location precision up to 10 times as good as GPS, in a system much less prone to interference.

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

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https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/pres ... t-european

Airbus and OneWeb have signed a distribution partner agreement to provide low Earth orbit (LEO) satellite communication services for military and governmental use. As the leading provider of military satellite communication services in Europe, Airbus will offer new communication services utilising the OneWeb constellation to select European and UK armed forces, and civil protection and security forces, from the end of 2021.

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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

Post by Caribbean »

This network seems like it may be an effective way of neutralising the Russian ASAT developments - basically we can build satellites for less than they can build the ASATs and spread them over a greater volume, making them harder to hit.
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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Re: UK Satellite Navigation System

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https://www.aerosociety.com/news/how-in ... nnovation/

On 22 December, Inmarsat launched I-6 F1 - the first of two Inmarsat-6 (I-6) satellites from the JAXA Tanegashima Space Centre in Japan. The I-6 F1 was carried into orbit aboard an H-IIA Launch Vehicle No. 45 (HIIA F45).

A leading provider of global, mobile satellite communications for the past 40 years, Inmarsat owns and operates 14 geostationary satellites in geostationary orbit 35,786km (22,236 miles) above the Earth. The satellites provide a multi-layered, global spectrum portfolio, covering L-band, Ka-band and S-band. Services offered include safety and mission-critical mobile broadband communications using the Global Maritime Distress and Safety System (GMDSS) approved by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO).

The newly launched sixth-generation Inmarsat-6 (I-6) satellites which will provide yet more capabilities. Constructed in the UK by Airbus Defence and Space, the I-6 F1 was launched from the JAXA Tanegashima Space Centre in Japan aboard an H-IIA Launch Vehicle. The second I-6 will follow in 2022.

The I-6F1 is claimed to be the largest commercial communications satellite ever launched, weighing 5,470kg with fuel. Once the solar array is extended, it will measure 47m across.

Inmarsat believes that enhanced capabilities of the new satellites will both ‘future proof’ its existing ELERA and Global Xpress services, as well as providing a ‘springboard for innovation’ for new emerging technologies. These include continued maritime and aviation safety, mobile connectivity for military and first responder networks, ISR operations, inter space communications, autonomous transport, ocean monitoring and internet of things (IoT) innovation for agriculture, electrical utilities, mining, oil, gas transport and logistics applications.

In addition to launching new satellites, Inmarsat is also finding new uses for ones already in orbit. On 7 December the company announced that it was testing the ability of its Inmarsat-3 F5 satellite to deliver a UK-generated satellite navigation (satnav) signal, to replace the capabilities lost after Brexit when UK no longer has access to the European Geostationary Navigation Overlay Service (EGNOS) Safety of Life services and its involvement in the EU’s Galileo programme. Developed in partnership with the European Space Agency, Goonhilly Earth Station and GMVNSL, the UK Space Based Augmentation System (UKSBAS) test project repurposes a transponder from the I-3 F5, launched in 1998, to provide an overlay signal to augment the US Global Positioning System satellite navigation system. Following the trials, the first signal-in-space is scheduled to be generated by March 2022.
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