UK Politics - General News & Discussion

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SKB
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Re: UK Politics - General News & Discussion

Post by SKB »

Boris Johnson has now been Prime Minister of the UK for exactly a year, after taking over from Theresa May on 24th July 2019.

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Re: UK Politics - General News & Discussion

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Breaking News of national importance: Argos is to stop printing paper catalogues!!! :shock: :mrgreen:

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Re: UK Politics - General News & Discussion

Post by dmereifield »

But what about all of those little pens?

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Re: UK Politics - General News & Discussion

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I dread to think of the cost that producing them in parchment will entail. :mrgreen:

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Re: UK Politics - General News & Discussion

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Could it be that a grouping within the Conservatives will table an amendment to the Internal Markets Bill which would give parliament, rather than ministers, the power to trigger any tearing up of the UK-EU Withdrawal Bill.

Sovereignty would go to where it belongs (the Parliament) and that would provide cover for the Gvmnt re: them arguing that international treaties are not to stand in the way of domestic legislation (Not meaning that I either think along those lines; just some 'idle' speculation.)
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Re: UK Politics - General News & Discussion

Post by dmereifield »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Could it be that a grouping within the Conservatives will table an amendment to the Internal Markets Bill which would give parliament, rather than ministers, the power to trigger any tearing up of the UK-EU Withdrawal Bill.

Sovereignty would go to where it belongs (the Parliament) and that would provide cover for the Gvmnt re: them arguing that international treaties are not to stand in the way of domestic legislation (Not meaning that I either think along those lines; just some 'idle' speculation.)
Looking that way

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Re: UK Politics - General News & Discussion

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Re: UK Politics - General News & Discussion

Post by Caribbean »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Could it be that a grouping within the Conservatives will table an amendment to the Internal Markets Bill which would give parliament, rather than ministers, the power to trigger any tearing up of the UK-EU Withdrawal Bill.

Sovereignty would go to where it belongs (the Parliament) and that would provide cover for the Gvmnt re: them arguing that international treaties are not to stand in the way of domestic legislation (Not meaning that I either think along those lines; just some 'idle' speculation.)
Personally, I would feel more comfortable with that arrangement. As I would with an amendment formally stating the conditions under which the intended legislation would be implemented (such as specific actions taken by the EU) or would not be implemented (such as in the event of an FTA that meets specific criteria). Subject to future amendment, of course, to counter unforseen events and actions.

It would make it more difficult for the "EU" to file a case with the ECJ, as: Parliament has formally stated it's future intent, but deferred implementation (and such implementation is conditional on the "EU" own actions) and; any adverse judgment made by the ECJ would very clearly be seen as an attempt to override the sovereingty of the British Parliament (which would totally destroy the "you already have sovereingty" argument, if an unelected body was to attempt to override or punish an elected legislature).

The fact is that the UK Government has to be in the position to be able to mitigate any unforseen negative consequences of the Withdrawal Agreement that might arise out of the failure of the two parties to agree an FTA (and no, I'm not going to get into an argument over whose fault that is- in this context it's actually a moot point). From what I've read of the proposed internal market legislation, it's focus can largely be summed up by "if something can legally be sold or done in one part of the UK, it can legally be sold or done in all parts of the UK, regardless of what third parties say".

One such would be the case mentioned in the press, whereby the EU (to be precise, the Commission) attempts to use "food standards" as a pretext to keep UK food out of NI. I'm sure that there are plenty of other examples that, when taken together, could be used to "virtually annexe" Northern Ireland and to exclude the rUK from the NI market. I suspect that much of the EU's confected anger is because their "cunning plan" has been thwarted.
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Re: UK Politics - General News & Discussion

Post by jedibeeftrix »

ArmChairCivvy wrote: Sovereignty would go to where it belongs (the Parliament) and that would provide cover for the Gvmnt
this goes to the heart of the UK's problem with the EU.

culturally and politically the EU has been considered and treated as a foriegn policy matter - which would under any other circumstances be considered a Gov't prerogrative.

and yet... the very nature of EU membership is deeply invasive into internal governence on matters of economic and social policy via regs... which should be a matter for parliament.

this conundrum is precisely why we are where we are - because there has never been a collective acceptance that EU membership should go so deeply into domestic political governance.

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Re: UK Politics - General News & Discussion

Post by SW1 »

https://news.sky.com/story/uk-strikes-a ... l-12068674

The UK has secured its first post-Brexit trade deal following an agreement with Japan.

The government estimates the agreement will boost trade with Japan by £15.2bn and UK businessess will enjoy tariff-free trade on 99% of exports to the country.

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Re: UK Politics - General News & Discussion

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

I had to have some salts to recover ... we all seemed to agree on something :o .

Just to keep the discussion live, I could easily transpose what the Brexit Charlatans have been up to onto this nice little piece - please disregard the 'national security' focus and insert the amoeba-like Brexit:

"COVID-19 has put on even starker display the national security dangers of a Trump-infected cognitive infrastructure. Too many Americans are unwilling to believe in science, facts, and journalism, but are eager to embrace conspiracy theories, junk science, and political leaders — a combination that has proven, quite literally, deadly in the face of the pandemic. On Wednesday, we learned that Trump made American gullibility his strategy for surviving (politically) the pandemic, as he admitted in March to downplaying its seriousness to the public."

The credit for putting it so succinctly goes to:
Joshua A. Geltzer
Institute for Constitutional Advocacy and Protection, Georgetown University
September 10, 2020
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
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Re: UK Politics - General News & Discussion

Post by G White »

SW1 wrote:https://news.sky.com/story/uk-strikes-a ... l-12068674

The UK has secured its first post-Brexit trade deal following an agreement with Japan.

The government estimates the agreement will boost trade with Japan by £15.2bn and UK businessess will enjoy tariff-free trade on 99% of exports to the country.
Which will give a massive 0.07% boost to the economy!

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Re: UK Politics - General News & Discussion

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SW1 wrote:https://news.sky.com/story/uk-strikes-a ... l-12068674

The UK has secured its first post-Brexit trade deal following an agreement with Japan.

The government estimates the agreement will boost trade with Japan by £15.2bn and UK businessess will enjoy tariff-free trade on 99% of exports to the country.
It can always be relatively easy to make agreements that have very little impact because, well, they have very little impact. No one is going to bother fighting over a better deal on an individual measure for tens of millions, but they're going to fight tooth and nail when it's tens of billions.

And of course, it's always worth remembering that this trade deal essentially replicates the the EU and Japan agreement that entered in to force last year, so it doesn't boost trade with Japan any more than remaining a member of the EEA would have.

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Re: UK Politics - General News & Discussion

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Would you have preferred that it wasn’t signed?

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Re: UK Politics - General News & Discussion

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SW1 wrote:Would you have preferred that it wasn’t signed?
I'd have preferred that it would be unnecessary.

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Re: UK Politics - General News & Discussion

Post by dmereifield »

We were told by the usual pro EU gang that:

Lacking the clout of the EU we'd not be able to make trade deals with the world's largest economies

It would take years to negotiate FTA's

We'd not be able to secure as favourable terms as those that the EU have secured

We'd have to concede to Japan's wish for auto tariffs to be removed more immediately

We'd have to concede and sign up to investor-state dispute settlement mechanism

Nobody would sign an agreement with the Pariah state that we've become since Tuesday and the IM bill etc

All of the above proved wrong. The UK and Japan (worlds 3rd largest economy) agree an FTA that goes further than the Japan-EU FTA in a whole range of areas, benefitting both the UK and Japan.

Notice how Japan didn't demand the right to set UK laws or fish in UK EEZ

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Re: UK Politics - General News & Discussion

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dmereifield wrote:We were told by the usual pro EU gang that:

Lacking the clout of the EU we'd not be able to make trade deals with the world's largest economies

It would take years to negotiate FTA's

We'd not be able to secure as favourable terms as those that the EU have secured

We'd have to concede to Japan's wish for auto tariffs to be removed more immediately

We'd have to concede and sign up to investor-state dispute settlement mechanism

Nobody would sign an agreement with the Pariah state that we've become since Tuesday and the IM bill etc

All of the above proved wrong. The UK and Japan (worlds 3rd largest economy) agree an FTA that goes further than the Japan-EU FTA in a whole range of areas, benefitting both the UK and Japan.

Notice how Japan didn't demand the right to set UK laws or fish in UK EEZ
Notice how the UK has got vital concessions on its cheese exports to Japans near non-existent market for British cheese in return for more rapidly lowering auto tariffs to zero than under the deal that they have with the EU. ;)

Seriously though, given how little this agreement is actually worth to either country and that it favours Japanese interests it's really unsurprising that we were able to reach it. Frankly, selling ARM to Softbank back in 2016 was probably worth more to the Japanese economy than this deal is. If the UK had been this willing to roll over in its negotiations with the EU then we'd have had a mutually beneficial agreement that secured tariff-free access with by far its largest trading partner long before now.

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Re: UK Politics - General News & Discussion

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Pseudo wrote:Frankly, selling ARM to Softbank back in 2016 was probably worth more to the Japanese economy than this deal is
BTW, I think Softbank overpaid (I was an ARM shareholder and I didn't even get a chance to vote on it, but getting paid three times what I paid for the shares made up for it, I guess.) Last I heard, here were rumours that Softbank was looking to offload ARM.
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Re: UK Politics - General News & Discussion

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Caribbean wrote:
Pseudo wrote:Frankly, selling ARM to Softbank back in 2016 was probably worth more to the Japanese economy than this deal is
BTW, I think Softbank overpaid (I was an ARM shareholder and I didn't even get a chance to vote on it, but getting paid three times what I paid for the shares made up for it, I guess.) Last I heard, here were rumours that Softbank was looking to offload ARM.
Nvidia are understandably chomping at the bit and a $10bn+ profit on its purchase four years ago would be more than the Anglo-Japanese trade agreement would be worth to the Japanese economy over the same period. Though I understand that Softbank are also considering floating ARM which could be even more lucrative.

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Re: UK Politics - General News & Discussion

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Pseudo wrote: replicates the the EU and Japan agreement that entered in to force last year, so it doesn't boost trade with Japan any more than remaining a member of the EEA would have.
+
Pseudo wrote:Frankly, selling ARM to Softbank back in 2016 was probably worth more to the Japanese economy than this deal is
The stupidos have not noticed how the China is sweeping up corporate control of the "next ARMs"
... or may be they have?? Let us know...
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: UK Politics - General News & Discussion

Post by dmereifield »

Pseudo wrote:
dmereifield wrote:We were told by the usual pro EU gang that:

Lacking the clout of the EU we'd not be able to make trade deals with the world's largest economies

It would take years to negotiate FTA's

We'd not be able to secure as favourable terms as those that the EU have secured

We'd have to concede to Japan's wish for auto tariffs to be removed more immediately

We'd have to concede and sign up to investor-state dispute settlement mechanism

Nobody would sign an agreement with the Pariah state that we've become since Tuesday and the IM bill etc

All of the above proved wrong. The UK and Japan (worlds 3rd largest economy) agree an FTA that goes further than the Japan-EU FTA in a whole range of areas, benefitting both the UK and Japan.

Notice how Japan didn't demand the right to set UK laws or fish in UK EEZ
Notice how the UK has got vital concessions on its cheese exports to Japans near non-existent market for British cheese in return for more rapidly lowering auto tariffs to zero than under the deal that they have with the EU. ;)

Seriously though, given how little this agreement is actually worth to either country and that it favours Japanese interests it's really unsurprising that we were able to reach it. Frankly, selling ARM to Softbank back in 2016 was probably worth more to the Japanese economy than this deal is. If the UK had been this willing to roll over in its negotiations with the EU then we'd have had a mutually beneficial agreement that secured tariff-free access with by far its largest trading partner long before now.
You forget that the FTA benefits the UK as well as Japan. It's not just the soft cheese; why wasn't soft cheese included in the EU deal French farmers will now want to know?. You overlook the fact that the UK didn't "roll over" on key aspects Japan originally asked for (and that we were told the UK would have to concede: immediate auto tariff removal (UK isn't phasing them out any faster than the EU) and ISDS), and Japan did make concessions on areas the UK pushed (extended RoO (a big win for UK, that the UK has also managed to insert into the UK-Chile FTA), agri, financial services etc). But of course, you'll still tell us that it's no good despite the fact that it's better than the EU managed.

As for the potential UK-EU FTA, it indeed would be easy to negotiate if the EU took reasonable positions as UK and Japan did in their negotiation. However, if one party makes impossible, colonial style, demands then it shouldn't be a surprise that it results in no FTA.

I'm still reasonably confident that the EU will move away from said positions, they've inferred that they will, but what they're angling for as a compromise is still impossible for any self respecting soverign democratic state to accept. So, they'll need to move quite a bit more if they want a deal.

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Re: UK Politics - General News & Discussion

Post by Pseudo »

dmereifield wrote:
Pseudo wrote:
dmereifield wrote:We were told by the usual pro EU gang that:

Lacking the clout of the EU we'd not be able to make trade deals with the world's largest economies

It would take years to negotiate FTA's

We'd not be able to secure as favourable terms as those that the EU have secured

We'd have to concede to Japan's wish for auto tariffs to be removed more immediately

We'd have to concede and sign up to investor-state dispute settlement mechanism

Nobody would sign an agreement with the Pariah state that we've become since Tuesday and the IM bill etc

All of the above proved wrong. The UK and Japan (worlds 3rd largest economy) agree an FTA that goes further than the Japan-EU FTA in a whole range of areas, benefitting both the UK and Japan.

Notice how Japan didn't demand the right to set UK laws or fish in UK EEZ
Notice how the UK has got vital concessions on its cheese exports to Japans near non-existent market for British cheese in return for more rapidly lowering auto tariffs to zero than under the deal that they have with the EU. ;)

Seriously though, given how little this agreement is actually worth to either country and that it favours Japanese interests it's really unsurprising that we were able to reach it. Frankly, selling ARM to Softbank back in 2016 was probably worth more to the Japanese economy than this deal is. If the UK had been this willing to roll over in its negotiations with the EU then we'd have had a mutually beneficial agreement that secured tariff-free access with by far its largest trading partner long before now.
You forget that the FTA benefits the UK as well as Japan. It's not just the soft cheese;
I don't forget about it, I just note that it benefits the Japanese more than the UK so in zero-sum terms it's a net benefit to the Japanese at the expense of the UK.
why wasn't soft cheese included in the EU deal French farmers will now want to know?. You overlook the fact that the UK didn't "roll over" on key aspects Japan originally asked for (and that we were told the UK would have to concede: immediate auto tariff removal (UK isn't phasing them out any faster than the EU) and ISDS),
I don't know if the Japanese even asked for immediate auto tariff removal but then I don't know who told you that auto tariff removal would have to be immediate in order to secure an agreement.
and Japan did make concessions on areas the UK pushed (extended RoO (a big win for UK, that the UK has also managed to insert into the UK-Chile FTA), agri, financial services etc). But of course, you'll still tell us that it's no good despite the fact that it's better than the EU managed.
As I noted, Japan did make concessions but those concessions are worth less to the British economy than the concessions made by the UK are worth to the Japanese economy.
As for the potential UK-EU FTA, it indeed would be easy to negotiate if the EU took reasonable positions as UK and Japan did in their negotiation. However, if one party makes impossible, colonial style, demands then it shouldn't be a surprise that it results in no FTA.
I'm sure that the EU would be happy to negotiate a deal with the UK that benefited them more than the UK.
I'm still reasonably confident that the EU will move away from said positions, they've inferred that they will, but what they're angling for as a compromise is still impossible for any self respecting soverign democratic state to accept. So, they'll need to move quite a bit more if they want a deal.
I hope you're right, but I fear that you're wrong because I don't think that the current government will move away from its position even though a scooter will always lose a game of chicken with a 20 tonne truck it appears the UK's scooter is optimistic that if can pop a wheelie just before impact it'll win.

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Re: UK Politics - General News & Discussion

Post by Caribbean »

Pseudo wrote:Though I understand that Softbank are also considering floating ARM which could be even more lucrative.
If Softbank are going to re-float ARM as a publicly-owned company, then I would buy back in (as I said, I had no option in the sale, it was forced on shareholders. I also used to have share in a Japanese property company that was "taken private" - you have no right to stop it, if a relevant Court rules that the takeover is legitimate).
If you believe that it should be a British company, then put your money where your mouth is and buy shares,
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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Re: UK Politics - General News & Discussion

Post by Pseudo »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Pseudo wrote: replicates the the EU and Japan agreement that entered in to force last year, so it doesn't boost trade with Japan any more than remaining a member of the EEA would have.
+
Pseudo wrote:Frankly, selling ARM to Softbank back in 2016 was probably worth more to the Japanese economy than this deal is
The stupidos have not noticed how the China is sweeping up corporate control of the "next ARMs"
... or may be they have?? Let us know...
And it appears that the current government wants to invest heavily in tech, which I suspect really means throwing money at whatever Cummings' mates dream up and watch it disappear.
Caribbean wrote:
Pseudo wrote:Though I understand that Softbank are also considering floating ARM which could be even more lucrative.
If you believe that it should be a British company, then put your money where your mouth is and buy shares,
I'm sorry, your logic doesn't follow. My buying shares would do as much to make ARM a British company as leaving the EU makes the UK any more of a sovereign state.

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Re: UK Politics - General News & Discussion

Post by Caribbean »

Pseudo wrote:I'm sorry, your logic doesn't follow. My buying shares would do as much to make ARM a British company as leaving the EU makes the UK any more of a sovereign state.
Once there are sufficient shareholders with a common purpose, they can control what a company does and where a company is based, because the shareowners own the company and appoint the Board of Directors - share ownership 101.
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

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