HMS Devonshire: The Royal Navy in the South China Sea

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indeid
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HMS Devonshire: The Royal Navy in the South China Sea

Post by indeid »

NOTE: This topic was split from an already existing topic. Although the original post was made just to highlight a fictional Type 23 frigate's role in a James Bond movie, this topic can be used for more generalised discussions on the Royal Navy's real-world activities in the South China Sea.
Remember the HMS Devonshire.........
http://jamesbond.wikia.com/wiki/HMS_Devonshire

abc123
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by abc123 »

indeid wrote:Remember the HMS Devonshire.........
http://jamesbond.wikia.com/wiki/HMS_Devonshire
IMHO, unnecessary provacation. :thumbdown:
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

Little J
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Little J »

A wiki about a bond film is provocative?

abc123
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by abc123 »

Little J wrote:A wiki about a bond film is provocative?
Nope. RN FONOPs in South China Sea IMHO are. And really, when was the last time China forbid some ships sailing there? Better to send them south of Cyprus, there's real work there to be done.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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shark bait
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by shark bait »

Ensuring routes remain accessible where most of our consumer good travel through is "real work".
@LandSharkUK

abc123
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by abc123 »

shark bait wrote:Ensuring routes remain accessible where most of our consumer good travel through is "real work".
And Chinese goods don't travel trough SCS? I say again- when did China forbid some ship to sail in SCS?
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

Sunk at Narvik
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Sunk at Narvik »

I'll put my tinfoil hat on and speculate that China's moves to militerise the SCS whilst at the same time opening up the "silk road" route to the west overland are part of a cunning plan to neutralise the effects of western sea power.

benny14
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by benny14 »

Sunk at Narvik wrote:I'll put my tinfoil hat on and speculate that China's moves to militerise the SCS whilst at the same time opening up the "silk road" route to the west overland are part of a cunning plan to neutralise the effects of western sea power.
Nothing tin foil hatty about that. That is literally what they are doing. They are building warships at an incredible rate, massively beefing up their marine corp, building bases on artificial islands in the SCS which can host air defense systems and fighter jets, they are opening up bases in the gulf to expand their military reach and they are globally conducting exercises with Russia, including the Baltic. Their plan is to dominate the area and increase their reach, taking them from a regional power to a more global one so that they cannot be so easily blockaded. They are doing all this and no body can do a dam thing about it. They will soon reach a point where even the US wont be able to confidently take them on. The US really does need Europe to pull its weight, because they are going to have to constantly be shifting their forces to the Pacific to keep the balance.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Caribbean »

One of the arguments for other powers to keep giving aid to India, so that they can divert spending to their own military, as a counter to China. Then it doesn't look as if we are giving military aid
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by dmereifield »

Caribbean wrote:One of the arguments for other powers to keep giving aid to India, so that they can divert spending to their own military, as a counter to China. Then it doesn't look as if we are giving military aid
Valid point. Shame it doesn't also lead to greater purchase of UK built military equipment for the Indian armed forces....

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shark bait
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by shark bait »

abc123 wrote:when did China forbid some ship to sail in SCS?
Nothing high profile, and we are not going to allow them to set a precedence that may lead to that in the future.

There are reports of someone, most likely the Chinese, using hybrid tactics to deny fishing vessels access to the area, we need to make sure those practices don't continue. It's quite clear they are trying to establish total control of the region, something the rest of us should not accept.
@LandSharkUK

abc123
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by abc123 »

shark bait wrote:
abc123 wrote:when did China forbid some ship to sail in SCS?
Nothing high profile, and we are not going to allow them to set a precedence that may lead to that in the future.

There are reports of someone, most likely the Chinese, using hybrid tactics to deny fishing vessels access to the area, we need to make sure those practices don't continue. It's quite clear they are trying to establish total control of the region, something the rest of us should not accept.
And UK and Iceland for example had no fishing disputes? So China should send their frigates in Iceland-Faroerne gap because of that?
Or Vietnam/Phillipines etc. have stronger claim for that area than Chinese? Or would they allowed Chinese fishermen to fish in these waters?
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

abc123
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by abc123 »

dmereifield wrote:
Caribbean wrote:One of the arguments for other powers to keep giving aid to India, so that they can divert spending to their own military, as a counter to China. Then it doesn't look as if we are giving military aid
Valid point. Shame it doesn't also lead to greater purchase of UK built military equipment for the Indian armed forces....
And what UK has to gain by propping India against China? Neither country loves you, but Chinese at least have the money to help you, while Indians don't do anything worthy of some special support. And the fact that you have ruled India 70 years ago, I seriously doubt that you will get any more brownie points from them on account of that... Plus the fact that country that has nuclear and space program needs no foreign aid.
And you wonder why France has things going better than you? At least, they have their OWN foreign policy, instead of just doing everything Washington does, without even thinking is that good/necesarry for the UK... If someone want's to curry favour with Washington, they will go there, not in London.

Because, I don't see that the Americans have done soething like saying- yeah, you Brits have bought 9 Poseidons from us, back then the course was say 1,6 dollars per pound, now it's 1,3, so, because you are such good friends with us, go everywhere we go, support us at every opportunity etc., you give us the same amount of pounds as before- and we will give you the planes- because we are such good friends & cousins and have such a special relationship- and it's good for us that you have these planes too, NATO and stuff...
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Tempest414
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

that was a good rant feel better :lol:

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Caribbean »

abc123 wrote:So China should send their frigates in Iceland-Faroerne gap because of that?
Not if they are going to do this
https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/searc ... ction=view
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

abc123
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by abc123 »

Tempest414 wrote:that was a good rant feel better :lol:
Yeah, a bit better. :lolno: Rant mode off. :angel:
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

abc123
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by abc123 »

Caribbean wrote:
abc123 wrote:So China should send their frigates in Iceland-Faroerne gap because of that?
Not if they are going to do this
https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/searc ... ction=view

Portugal and Spain also have a maritime dispute- over Savage Islands- why not send Chinese ships there? Croatia and Slovenia too- why not there too? Greece and Turkey too- why not there? Not to mention Cyprus or other such places, of no concern whatsoever for China, same like SCS for UK.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

Caribbean
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Caribbean »

abc123 wrote:Portugal and Spain also have a maritime dispute- over Savage Islands- why not send Chinese ships there? Croatia and Slovenia too- why not there too? Greece and Turkey too- why not there? Not to mention Cyprus or other such places, of no concern whatsoever for China, same like SCS for UK.
China is at liberty to do so. As long as their warships stay in international waters, they will be ignored (well officially ignored). Why is China getting worked up about foreign warships passing through International waters? Does that give you a clue as to why these are different issues?
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

abc123
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by abc123 »

Caribbean wrote:
abc123 wrote:Portugal and Spain also have a maritime dispute- over Savage Islands- why not send Chinese ships there? Croatia and Slovenia too- why not there too? Greece and Turkey too- why not there? Not to mention Cyprus or other such places, of no concern whatsoever for China, same like SCS for UK.
China is at liberty to do so. As long as their warships stay in international waters, they will be ignored (well officially ignored). Why is China getting worked up about foreign warships passing through International waters? Does that give you a clue as to why these are different issues?
China has no problems with foreign warships passing trough international waters. On the other hand, passing within 12 nm from Chinese held islands- that's a normal thing to be excited. And I don't see any difference between Chinese or Vietnamese or Phillipine claims in SCS, the fairest solution would be to divide that area between them, but this way or another, UK has no interest there and should not meddle there. And safe and reliable passage trough SCS is good for everybody, especially for China.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

Caribbean
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Caribbean »

abc123 wrote:the fairest solution would be to divide that area between them
It was - and according to the tenets of international law (UNCLOS) that China recognises. They also claim full sovereign authority (meaning that other states need their consent to move ANYWHERE in the SCS, not just within 12nm of the disputed islands). They have annexed islands that are not theirs (sometimes by force, as the video I linked shows) that are as much as 1000km from their own shores and less than 100km from the shores of other islands (in fact the Chinese claim virtually up to the Malaysian shoreline at some points - possibly the Philipines as well)
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

abc123
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by abc123 »

Caribbean wrote:
abc123 wrote:the fairest solution would be to divide that area between them
It was - and according to the tenets of international law (UNCLOS) that China recognises. They also claim full sovereign authority (meaning that other states need their consent to move ANYWHERE in the SCS, not just within 12nm of the disputed islands). They have annexed islands that are not theirs (sometimes by force, as the video I linked shows) that are as much as 1000km from their own shores and less than 100km from the shores of other islands (in fact the Chinese claim virtually up to the Malaysian shoreline at some points - possibly the Philipines as well)
Of course that any country starts with widest possible claims, if you claim a lot- you will not get little. Chinese claim is as valid as, say Vietnamese that claims not quite up to middle point of the sea. And if international law is the norm, then only China ( Taiwan ) can really claim territorial waters there ( they only have the real island- Itu Aba ). Anyway, IMHO the best solution would be uti posseditis principle, where every current island/reef belonging to either country get's recognised as island and with 12 nm territorial sea. The rest should be international waters and that's it. And there's enough international waters there for anybody's traffic.

Something like this:

[img]http://www.dumpt.com/img/viewer.php?file=rzhi4izzh138n9amugm8.png[/img]
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

R686
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by R686 »

abc123 wrote:
dmereifield wrote:
Caribbean wrote:One of the arguments for other powers to keep giving aid to India, so that they can divert spending to their own military, as a counter to China. Then it doesn't look as if we are giving military aid
Valid point. Shame it doesn't also lead to greater purchase of UK built military equipment for the Indian armed forces....
And what UK has to gain by propping India against China? Neither country loves you, but Chinese at least have the money to help you, while Indians don't do anything worthy of some special support. And the fact that you have ruled India 70 years ago, I seriously doubt that you will get any more brownie points from them on account of that... Plus the fact that country that has nuclear and space program needs no foreign aid.
And you wonder why France has things going better than you? At least, they have their OWN foreign policy, instead of just doing everything Washington does, without even thinking is that good/necesarry for the UK... If someone want's to curry favour with Washington, they will go there, not in London.

Because, I don't see that the Americans have done soething like saying- yeah, you Brits have bought 9 Poseidons from us, back then the course was say 1,6 dollars per pound, now it's 1,3, so, because you are such good friends with us, go everywhere we go, support us at every opportunity etc., you give us the same amount of pounds as before- and we will give you the planes- because we are such good friends & cousins and have such a special relationship- and it's good for us that you have these planes too, NATO and stuff...
Wow shades of Nevile Chamberlian and a large dose of sea blindness

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »


Valid point. Shame it doesn't also lead to greater purchase of UK built military equipment for the Indian armed forces
Not a valid point. And, yes, a shame: shaking the tree, and then again... just in case something did not fall off it (in the previous negotiation... that suddenly became, for no clear reason, null and void).
R686 wrote: Wow shades of Nevile Chamberlian
Not so; it is Radio Maskwu speaking ( I personally prefer Radio Yerevan :D but I am afraid only abc will get the joke... and he might not be old enough, to get it :wave: ).
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
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abc123
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by abc123 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote: Radio Yerevan :D
You don't have to be a Russian to know about Radio Erevan. Decent general knowledge and knowledge of history will do. :wave:
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

abc123
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by abc123 »

R686 wrote: a large dose of sea blindness
Say that to HMG for last 20 years. I'm not the one who retired the carriers, reduced SSN fleet to 6, made destroyers with faulty engines etc. :P
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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