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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Posted: 18 Mar 2023, 18:43
by dmereifield
We need the current government to sign up to some Gordon Brown style Carrier contracts to be sure of that....

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Posted: 18 Mar 2023, 19:37
by mrclark303
dmereifield wrote: 18 Mar 2023, 18:43 We need the current government to sign up to some Gordon Brown style Carrier contracts to be sure of that....
I hope they do.....

The looming UK general election must be a slight concern to the Japanese government, in this critical moment when the embryonic corporate structure of Tempest is being formed.

I am sure they wil pressure the UK government to sign up and equally pressure the Labour party to confirm their commitment to it.....

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Posted: 18 Mar 2023, 19:51
by Meriv9
TSR2 is the Uk version of Canadian Avro C-105 Drama?

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Posted: 18 Mar 2023, 20:10
by mrclark303
mrclark303 wrote: 18 Mar 2023, 19:37
dmereifield wrote: 18 Mar 2023, 18:43 We need the current government to sign up to some Gordon Brown style Carrier contracts to be sure of that....
I hope they do.....

The looming UK general election must be a slight concern to the Japanese government, in this critical moment when the embryonic corporate structure of Tempest is being formed.

I am sure they wil pressure the UK government to sign up and equally pressure the Labour party to confirm their commitment to it.....
Just to add, I expect the programme to move quickly when it's underway, certainly much faster than Typhoon, a programme where the partners still moan and argue about upgrades ....

.

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Posted: 18 Mar 2023, 20:57
by SD67
Meriv9 wrote: 18 Mar 2023, 19:51 TSR2 is the Uk version of Canadian Avro C-105 Drama?
Much worse

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Posted: 19 Mar 2023, 00:37
by Spitfire9
mrclark303 wrote: 18 Mar 2023, 19:37
dmereifield wrote: 18 Mar 2023, 18:43 We need the current government to sign up to some Gordon Brown style Carrier contracts to be sure of that....
I hope they do.....

The looming UK general election must be a slight concern to the Japanese government, in this critical moment when the embryonic corporate structure of Tempest is being formed.

I am sure they wil pressure the UK government to sign up and equally pressure the Labour party to confirm their commitment to it.....
I hope we don't have a trade agreement with Japan. They can let us know that if we back out of this co-operative agreement there won't be a co-operative trade agreement for a long time.

PS The geniuses who told us that getting out of the EU was a brilliant idea, an EU all of whose members were nasty johnny foreigners except for us, told us that the UK would enjoy great trade advantages once we left. The reality was the opposite and we desperately need trade agreements with major economies.

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Posted: 19 Mar 2023, 00:48
by mrclark303
SD67 wrote: 18 Mar 2023, 20:57
Meriv9 wrote: 18 Mar 2023, 19:51 TSR2 is the Uk version of Canadian Avro C-105 Drama?
Much worse
TSR2 was mentioned, so here we go.....

There's an interesting synergy between the TSR2 and Arrow,both world leading programmes, both killed by government inability to see the huge strides and opportunities the programmes offered.

In many ways, Arrow was worse, because it had gone a great deal further than TSR2 ever managed and was at the cusp of proving a remarkable aircraft....

A terrible shame for both Canada and the UK....

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Posted: 19 Mar 2023, 00:58
by mrclark303
Spitfire9 wrote: 19 Mar 2023, 00:37
mrclark303 wrote: 18 Mar 2023, 19:37
dmereifield wrote: 18 Mar 2023, 18:43 We need the current government to sign up to some Gordon Brown style Carrier contracts to be sure of that....
I hope they do.....

The looming UK general election must be a slight concern to the Japanese government, in this critical moment when the embryonic corporate structure of Tempest is being formed.

I am sure they wil pressure the UK government to sign up and equally pressure the Labour party to confirm their commitment to it.....
I hope we don't have a trade agreement with Japan. They can let us know that if we back out of this co-operative agreement there won't be a co-operative trade agreement for a long time.

PS The geniuses who told us that getting out of the EU was a brilliant idea, an EU all of whose members were nasty johnny foreigners except for us, told us that the UK would enjoy great trade advantages once we left. The reality was the opposite and we desperately need trade agreements with major economies.
I totally disagree, the UK will prosper as an independent country.

Covid hit the pause button, but we are getting there steadily now.

Leaving the EU was about more than the economy anyway, it was about leaving an organisation hell bent on blurring sovereignty and creating a United States of Europe...

If that's what the Europeans want, good luck to them, I'm glad we're out of that particular mad house....

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Posted: 19 Mar 2023, 08:37
by dmereifield
Spitfire9 wrote: 19 Mar 2023, 00:37
mrclark303 wrote: 18 Mar 2023, 19:37
dmereifield wrote: 18 Mar 2023, 18:43 We need the current government to sign up to some Gordon Brown style Carrier contracts to be sure of that....
I hope they do.....

The looming UK general election must be a slight concern to the Japanese government, in this critical moment when the embryonic corporate structure of Tempest is being formed.

I am sure they wil pressure the UK government to sign up and equally pressure the Labour party to confirm their commitment to it.....
I hope we don't have a trade agreement with Japan. They can let us know that if we back out of this co-operative agreement there won't be a co-operative trade agreement for a long time.

PS The geniuses who told us that getting out of the EU was a brilliant idea, an EU all of whose members were nasty johnny foreigners except for us, told us that the UK would enjoy great trade advantages once we left. The reality was the opposite and we desperately need trade agreements with major economies.
Despite being told by the anti Brexit crowd that no countries would want to sign FTAs with the UK without the EUs economic clout, post Brexit, Japan and many other countries have signed FTAs with the UK

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Posted: 19 Mar 2023, 09:44
by SD67
Interesting one for historians

Personally I think if there were no Brexit we’d be looking at a maybe 20% share in FCAS, maybe even alignment of SSNs with France ie adopting LEU. I don’t think 5 eyes would last long term given the EUs defence ambitions.

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Posted: 19 Mar 2023, 09:50
by inch
Spitfire9 wrote: 19 Mar 2023, 00:37
mrclark303 wrote: 18 Mar 2023, 19:37
dmereifield wrote: 18 Mar 2023, 18:43 We need the current government to sign up to some Gordon Brown style Carrier contracts to be sure of that....
I hope they do.....

The looming UK general election must be a slight concern to the Japanese government, in this critical moment when the embryonic corporate structure of Tempest is being formed.

I am sure they wil pressure the UK government to sign up and equally pressure the Labour party to confirm their commitment to it.....
I hope we don't have a trade agreement with Japan. They can let us know that if we back out of this co-operative agreement there won't be a co-operative trade agreement for a long time.

PS The geniuses who told us that getting out of the EU was a brilliant idea, an EU all of whose members were nasty johnny foreigners except for us, told us that the UK would enjoy great trade advantages once we left. The reality was the opposite and we desperately need trade agreements with major economies.
Thank god we are out ,it's just been proven how useless Europe are the last few years ,bunch of left wing pc ,bureaucratic, can't make their mind up ,rule for one organisation,we glad to be out of,hell half of them wouldn't even defend themselves,utter useless,god help the next lefty labour trying to sign UK up to euro con scheme ,just saying 🙂

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Posted: 19 Mar 2023, 09:54
by TheLoneRanger
SD67 wrote: 19 Mar 2023, 09:44 Interesting one for historians

Personally I think if there were no Brexit we’d be looking at a maybe 20% share in FCAS, maybe even alignment of SSNs with France ie adopting LEU. I don’t think 5 eyes would last long term given the EUs defence ambitions.
EU has nothing to do with 5-eyes .... so its future has nothing to do with the EU.

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Posted: 19 Mar 2023, 10:15
by SD67
TheLoneRanger wrote: 19 Mar 2023, 09:54
SD67 wrote: 19 Mar 2023, 09:44 Interesting one for historians

Personally I think if there were no Brexit we’d be looking at a maybe 20% share in FCAS, maybe even alignment of SSNs with France ie adopting LEU. I don’t think 5 eyes would last long term given the EUs defence ambitions.
EU has nothing to do with 5-eyes .... so its future has nothing to do with the EU.
IMHO The EU have serious ambitions in terms of defence and intelligence sharing. For example a new EU institution opened in just 2020 - Intelligence College of Europe. and the ability of the UK to straddle those two communities would be put under severe strain medium term.

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Posted: 19 Mar 2023, 11:06
by inch
SD67 wrote: 19 Mar 2023, 10:15
TheLoneRanger wrote: 19 Mar 2023, 09:54
SD67 wrote: 19 Mar 2023, 09:44 Interesting one for historians

Personally I think if there were no Brexit we’d be looking at a maybe 20% share in FCAS, maybe even alignment of SSNs with France ie adopting LEU. I don’t think 5 eyes would last long term given the EUs defence ambitions.
EU has nothing to do with 5-eyes .... so its future has nothing to do with the EU.
IMHO The EU have serious ambitions in terms of defence and intelligence sharing. For example a new EU institution opened in just 2020 - Intelligence College of Europe. and the ability of the UK to straddle those two communities would be put under severe strain medium term.
Let's just hope the EU institutions can weed out all the pro Russia leaning individuals, especially in a intelligence college,but I have my doubts,too many years riddled with that way of thinking, hence that's why UK intelligence is with USA is miles more effective that any EU intelligence instructions and the EU know that themselves,they are so behind the curve it's comical,they have admitted this , FRANCE and GERMANY,,

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Posted: 19 Mar 2023, 12:24
by wargame_insomniac
Can we keep the politics out of Tempest thread, and in, well, the politics threads.

Thanks

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Posted: 19 Mar 2023, 12:37
by SD67
" But Sir, He started it!"

:-)

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Posted: 19 Mar 2023, 13:30
by mrclark303
SD67 wrote: 19 Mar 2023, 12:37 " But Sir, He started it!"

:-)
No i'm Spartacus !

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Posted: 19 Mar 2023, 16:38
by ThreeHeadedLion
Gtal wrote: 05 Mar 2023, 23:49
ThreeHeadedLion wrote: 05 Mar 2023, 23:04 By the time GCAP moves to induction stage, India will have a defense budget of over $250 billion. Any one who is not clinically insane would want to be a part of that. Especially given the potential for a huge order to replace the Su30 and the Mig29 fleets.

The big challenge is making a sale off the shelf and not getting them involved in the development. Also, the antagonistic relations that exist between Italy-India and Sweden-India are a big drag on the hopes of making such a sale. It would have been ideal if this was just a clean development between UK and Japan with India being a committed off the shelf customer. As things stand they will probably end up buying the American export variant or maybe the FCAS if the French can minimise the project dependence on Germany.


That's a weird logic,
India wants freedom of action, which they don't get under US ITAR.
That is why they buy French and Russian stuff.

FCAS will be completely ITAR free and provide them operational independence.

It's just that they might not get to buy any more of them after they go on a vicious warcrime spree and/or perpetrate large scale crimes against humanity like the Saudis.
Dealing with germans is far worse than dealing with ITAR. Americans themselves carry out many operations that can be classed as war crimes so it is easier to have a reasonable discussion with the americans as to why a particular action was necessary.

Germans on the other hand have no experience of military operations but have tons of snooty attitude to offer. Not to mention very hypocritically so as well giving sanctimonious lectures to soft states while grabbing every last yuan they can from the organ trading regime in china.

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Posted: 19 Mar 2023, 19:01
by Meriv9
ThreeHeadedLion wrote: 19 Mar 2023, 16:38 The big challenge is making a sale off the shelf and not getting them involved in the development. Also, the antagonistic relations that exist between Italy-India and Sweden-India are a big drag on the hopes of making such a sale. It would have been ideal if this was just a clean development between UK and Japan with India being a committed off the shelf customer. As things stand they will probably end up buying the American export variant or maybe the FCAS if the French can minimise the project dependence on Germany.
Don't worry the Italin-India strain was exacerbated probably by the elections coming back then, probably because of the Italian connection in the Gandi family.

Things are back to normal

Image

Back in business even with people accused of mass massacre/genocide that 15 years ago were banned from the western world.

Pecunia non Olet...(money doesn't stink)

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Posted: 23 Mar 2023, 10:03
by Spitfire9
Meriv9 wrote: 19 Mar 2023, 19:01
ThreeHeadedLion wrote: 19 Mar 2023, 16:38 The big challenge is making a sale off the shelf and not getting them involved in the development. Also, the antagonistic relations that exist between Italy-India and Sweden-India are a big drag on the hopes of making such a sale. It would have been ideal if this was just a clean development between UK and Japan with India being a committed off the shelf customer. As things stand they will probably end up buying the American export variant or maybe the FCAS if the French can minimise the project dependence on Germany.
Don't worry the Italin-India strain was exacerbated probably by the elections coming back then, probably because of the Italian connection in the Gandi family.

Things are back to normal

Image

Back in business even with people accused of mass massacre/genocide that 15 years ago were banned from the western world.

Pecunia non Olet...(money doesn't stink)
Any chance of finding a photo of a Brit shaking hands with a Saudi? Money earned helping SA commit war crimes in Yemen doesn't seem to stink either.

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Posted: 23 Mar 2023, 11:08
by Spitfire9
By the way, India's parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence yesterday said:
"The government should consider buying state-of-the-art fifth generation fighter aircraft over the counter..."

In 1983 India set out to design a light combat aircraft intended to start replacing hundreds of MiG-21 in service with the Indian Air Force from the mid-1990's. 40 years later 32 have been delivered. These Tejas fighters (now designated Mk1) do not meet the original IAF performance requirements. A revised design featuring 43 improvements will start being delivered from 2024 - at which point there will only be 1 or 2 squadrons of Mig-21 left in service. So much for LCA replacing hundreds of MiG-21.

The IAF is severely under strength. 42 squadrons of fighter being seen as necessary to cope with concurrent hostilities with both China and Pakistan. Current strength is around 30 and will fall further in this decade. Apart from the light fighter Tejas Mk1A, no other Indian-produced fighters can realistically be expected to enter IAF service this decade.

Indigenous fighter projects at the moment

Tejas Mk1/Mk1A - 25+ years behind schedule
Tejas Mk2 - 10/15 years behind schedule
AMCA - 14+ years after inception, still to be officially launched

It is not surprising that IAF does not trust the government-owned MIC to supply the equipment needed within reasonable time to maintain its fighting ability. Equally the Standing Committee on Defence must be concerned about the weakness of the IAF.

I can see more Rafale being ordered if Dassault can supply, being somewhat swamped with orders. If Dassault cannot supply soon enough, F-35 could be ordered and AMCA sidelined/abandoned. I think this is a good time to offer India some involvement with GCAP. Nothing of significance since India has shown itself incapable of organising the production of fighter aircraft. Token involvement in GCAP might result in India ordering 100-200 over the years. Otherwise FCAS would get the sales.

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Posted: 23 Mar 2023, 17:31
by motiv
Would India be allowed the F35?

Wouldn't the TF-X be a better solution for them?

I presume GCAP would also have "export" versions, which are a little less state of the heart. I can't imagine India is particularly secure if you need to keep your radar absorbing features safe.

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Posted: 23 Mar 2023, 17:38
by Meriv9
For now India is just buying the Rafale-M
https://www.newindianexpress.com/nation ... 58326.html

Filling French treasury and giving them the (wrong) idea that they can go alone.

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Posted: 23 Mar 2023, 18:55
by Spitfire9
motiv wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 17:31 Would India be allowed the F35?

Wouldn't the TF-X be a better solution for them?

I presume GCAP would also have "export" versions, which are a little less state of the heart. I can't imagine India is particularly secure if you need to keep your radar absorbing features safe.
Yes, not certain India would get F-35A. TF-X is not 5G yet.

I'm not sure that India would worry too much if they did not get full spec GCAP radar, providing they could install their own AESA at a later point. I think that India will be buying medium fighters (Rafale/F-35A) and possibly a 6G fighter to help plug the massive hole in fighter capability they are facing in the next dozen years: 2 squadrons MiG-21, 3 squadrons MiG-29, 6 squadrons Jaguar, 3 squadrons Mirage 2000 being retired. 4 squadrons of Tejas Mk1A to be delivered by 2030. No other aircraft ordered at this point. Their 12 squadrons of Su-30 would start being retired in the 2030's.

If India has to import because of untenable delays in their 5G- AMCA, one of the 2 European 6G consortia is likely to be in for a big, big boost. Why should GCAP not foster a relationship with India? It should be remembered that India is the world's biggest arms importer.

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Posted: 23 Mar 2023, 18:57
by Spitfire9
Meriv9 wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 17:38 For now India is just buying the Rafale-M
https://www.newindianexpress.com/nation ... 58326.html

Filling French treasury and giving them the (wrong) idea that they can go alone.
How do you mean 'giving them the (wrong) idea that they can go alone.'