UK Defence Forum

matt00773 wrote: ↑30 Aug 2022, 13:48 I'm not so pessimistic on Sweden dropping out of the Tempest programme.

They can't drop out of something they've never signed up to.
They're not in Tempest. UK and Italy are, with Japan on the way.
Sweden/Saab are in the wider UK FCAS programme that is looking at technology and systems for future manned combat aircraft, some of which could be in Tempest.

I understand Gripen has about 20% UK content as is, put a RR engine in there and it's probably as British as Eurofighter

SD67 wrote: ↑01 Sep 2022, 13:00 I understand Gripen has about 20% UK content as is, put a RR engine in there and it's probably as British as Eurofighter

According to Saab, even higher!

Thirty-five percent of our Gripen fighter jet is sourced from UK companies* providing an economic benefit of £2-3bn and 5,000-6,000 jobs over the next 10 years.

https://www.saab.com/markets/united-kingdom

*Yes of course some of that work might be conducted abroad but it compares very favourably to the sub-15% UK-related workshare in F-35 and 37.5 in Typhoon. Although Gripen numbers are much smaller than either programme.

If you think of the systems on land sea and air that have come out of Sweden I think we would be in a much better position had we embraced more of them. Erieye, giraffe, gripen, cv90, bv series, sep, cb90, nlaw ect ect.

But it's so cold - who'd want to work there after they'd left the service/MOD

(excuse cynicism)

More on UK/Japan collaboration :-

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20220904_07/

So according to official reports we're collaborating on the engine, radar, missiles and fuselage. Not much else is there?

SD67 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2022, 09:00 So according to official reports we're collaborating on the engine, radar, missiles and fuselage. Not much else is there?

Interesting, we appear to be crossing the threshold of systems and engines, edging towards full co-shared design.

I wonder which airframe design will win out, perhaps an amalgamation of features, both rather ugly if I'm honest, the duck billed Tempest has a face only a mother could love!

It's exactly what happened with Thypoon, that's a mash up of a British Aerospace and German design, though British technology made it a viable design.

Two critical technology enablers with Thypoon are British, used a British engine demonstrator as the core of EJ200 and Blue Vixen Radar as the basis of ECR90.

We can all watch the rapidly evolving Tempest with great interest, to see what comes out of world leading joint UK/ Japanese high end technology.

All good stuff tbh v pleased,but I'm still hoping to hear whats happening across the channel with the European offering also

inch wrote: ↑05 Sep 2022, 11:14 All good stuff tbh v pleased,but I'm still hoping to hear whats happening across the channel with the European offering also

Hoping to hear what tho Inch? it going ahead or it dieing an ugly death?

When they talk about fuselage it will likely be the centre section and engine inlets both inextricably linked to the engine choice.

It maybe an overall shared aircraft design maybe not.

Not sure it will die ugly death,think possibly Ukraine invasion might jolt governments of France and Germany to push company's to make it happen ultimately,think this is just the pre positioning and trying to get the v most till the very last minute think that's how it will play out in the end no matter the hard words now so to speak,also hoping Germany keeps with France because I do not want Germany to get involved in tempest in any form ,so I'm not wishing SCAF program ill will tbh ,so sooner I hear they agreement the better in my book if you see my motivation

inch wrote: ↑05 Sep 2022, 13:46 Not sure it will die ugly death,think possibly Ukraine invasion might jolt governments of France and Germany to push company's to make it happen ultimately,think this is just the pre positioning and trying to get the v most till the very last minute think that's how it will play out in the end no matter the hard words now so to speak,also hoping Germany keeps with France because I do not want Germany to get involved in tempest in any form ,so I'm not wishing SCAF program ill will tbh ,so sooner I hear they agreement the better in my book if you see my motivation

Interesting observation Inch, SCAF had certainly come flying off the tracks due to typical euro squabbling!

The war in Ukraine 'might' get it back on track, or throw the Germans fully into F35 and kill it stone dead.

I don't see the Germans coming on board with Tempest (thank god) as it's likely to be significantly larger
and more complex combat aircraft than they would like.

I can see SCAF becoming a purely French project with lowered specifications, perhaps ending up being little more than a modernised Rafael derivative?

I put (rhetorical) money on this a year ago

- Germany ends up pushing to the right and drip feeding in some F35s
- France ends up going alone and evolving a "stealthy looking Rafale" for the late 2040s, then marketing the hell out of it
- UK builds Tempest with Japan (but they may officially not be the same aircraft)

As said before if your right and France does go it alone think they will do just fine for tech and after sales, especially after Ukraine war think countries buying Russian offerings will turn to France especially the rafale customers now , France will build a great plane again but also affordable to France and existing Rafale customers ,the tempest fighter will be alot more expensive I'm thinking in a sales battle ,plus if customers want to build carriers the French offering will fit the bill , plus I'm not sure about this but think France would export the IP tech alot easier than possibly UK/Japan tech I'm guessing

mrclark303 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2022, 09:53 Interesting, we appear to be crossing the threshold of systems and engines, edging towards full co-shared design.

I wonder which airframe design will win out, perhaps an amalgamation of features, both rather ugly if I'm honest, the duck billed Tempest has a face only a mother could love!

It's exactly what happened with Thypoon, that's a mash up of a British Aerospace and German design, though British technology made it a viable design.

Two critical technology enablers with Thypoon are British, used a British engine demonstrator as the core of EJ200 and Blue Vixen Radar as the basis of ECR90.

Two of the biggest German influences on the design of ACA, from the BAE P.110, was a preference for a single (larger) tail and moving the air intakes from the side to underneath:



Will be interesting to see what subtle UK/Japan/Italy(?) design cues end up being prioritised. Some of the early Tempest concepts were fairly radical by non-US standards.

Looking at the top views of different fighters I do like how wide and big the bae tempest design is compared to the others,just right for a big radar with lots of next gen tech I'm hoping , think France might do a larger radar housing aswell next time I'm thinking

inch wrote: ↑05 Sep 2022, 16:53 Looking at the top views of different fighters I do like how wide and big the bae tempest design is compared to the others,just right for a big radar with lots of next gen tech I'm hoping , think France might do a larger radar housing aswell next time I'm thinking

I agree, the current design appears to approximate the F22 in size and that's a good idea.

The previous international programs resulted in airframes limited in size, mainly due to German insistence.

The Tornado IDS was hamstrung by its size, limiting it's range and potential multi roll capability and export potential.

The UK wanted Typhoon to be a larger design, the Germans far smaller, luckily we stuck to our guns and ended up with a useful sized fighter, that said, had it been a UK only programme, it would likely have been a larger design with greater internal fuel capacity.

Tempest is a large design, quite rightly too......

I wouldn't say typhoon is much bigger than tornado. They are both a similar size.

topman wrote: ↑05 Sep 2022, 21:38 I wouldn't say typhoon is much bigger than tornado. They are both a similar size.

Evening Topman, yep of comparable like by like size.

But they are radically different aircraft, Tornado was originally envisioned as a multi role aircraft, but German insistence on an aircraft as small as possible effectively constrained the design to a low level, comparatively short range, low level specialist.

The engine ended up being a specialised and rather underpowered low level optimised turbofan and the radar virtually AG dedicated, with only simple AA modes available. You would be in deep sh*t indeed if you found yourself actually forced to use it in AA mode.

Basically a NATO central front dedicated strike platform..

Net result, it was only Cold War orders that saved it's bacon!

The multi role Tornado offered to Japan in the late 1980's, based on a strengthened F3 airframe with GE engines (I think) and Blue Vixen Radar would have been the aircraft the MRCA should have been from the very start, a European Strike Eagle of sorts.

It could have potentially sold very well and it would have been a fantastic aircraft for the RAF, alas it was not to be....

The Germans insisted on a an smaller design for what turned into Eurofighter, but the UK stuck to it's guns and insisted on an airframe capable of no holds barred air superiority, with excess power, good internal fuel and a fuselage long enough for four underslung AMRAAM.

If the Germans had their way, Typhoon would probably have looked more like a slightly larger, twin engine Gripen and sales probably dismal....

Large is always expensive in aircraft.

Tornado was designed as a low level interdictor strike aircraft. It was hugely versatile.

If you want to design a aircraft with sales opportunities your really in the gripen/f16/mirage2000 size capability and there’s nothing wrong with that, at one time Lockheed we’re convinced the RAF we’re buying f16 instead of the f3.

I recollect the alternative was the F-15, it had the range and was all weather.

SW1 wrote: ↑06 Sep 2022, 07:52 Large is always expensive in aircraft.

Tornado was designed as a low level interdictor strike aircraft. It was hugely versatile.

If you want to design a aircraft with sales opportunities your really in the gripen/f16/mirage2000 size capability and there’s nothing wrong with that, at one time Lockheed we’re convinced the RAF we’re buying f16 instead of the f3.

Ah yes, I remember that, it was a close run thing, upgrade the Tornado F3 or buy a batch of F16 as a stop gap prior to Eurofighter.

Strong lobbying from BAE Systems made sure it didn't happen.

My point re Tornado, is it was originally envisioned as a MRCA, the UK was able to bring it's cancelled AFVGA and short lived UK VG aircraft technology to the table.

Both projects and the cancelled TSR2, provided a great deal of enabling technology (crucially, materials not to use) and thousands of hours of VG wing glove and mechanical research.

Unfortunately, the UK economic position meant the Germans got their way with Tornado and MRCA only surviving in name alone.

I agree, it was a superb low level strike asset, but very narrowly focused on a European Central front role. Had it been a slightly larger, genuinely multi role machine, it could well have appealed to the many Phantom operators and sold in the thousands.

It was only the large cold war partner orders, with the Saudi top up that pushed the buy towards 1000 units.

mrclark303 wrote: ↑06 Sep 2022, 00:03

topman wrote: ↑05 Sep 2022, 21:38 I wouldn't say typhoon is much bigger than tornado. They are both a similar size.

The UK stuck to it's guns and insisted on an airframe capable of no holds barred air superiority, with excess power, good internal fuel and a fuselage long enough for four underslung AMRAAM.

I think of Typhoon as a kind of grandson of Lightning, it’s just that we never met the Dad in the middle.
Similar wingspan, sweep angle, power, big central intake feeding two engines. They’ve filled in the delta and solved the range issue

So the very big shout out and the morels of the storys above is never ever have anything to do with Germany for military aircraft , a total dead loss if we want to be truthful about it ,they have zero to offer except Hassel and negative outcomes on progress