Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
SW1
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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mrclark303 wrote: 12 Sep 2022, 20:28
SW1 wrote: 12 Sep 2022, 18:54 Yeah they won’t compromise the design by placing niche and largely irrelevant requirements on the design.

The operations the aircraft will be required to do will largely dictate size and features on the a/c. Twin engines and large radar seem to feature so far. G rating at set altitude at given distance from base will largely dictate size. CAP duration 100nm may also drive fuel req depending on aar trade offs.

I’d be less keen on large internal fuel and payload bays, instead I would design in conformal tanks from the beginning that could be configured for other things or removed altogether for those less interested in range.
I'm guessing something along F22 lines in size, long range is going to be vital to the British and Japanese.

Designing an airframe large enough to retain the extensive avionics, the now vital high power generation ancillary equipment, fuel and large mixed AA/AG weapon loads internally, plus a possible direct energy weapon, in a stealthy package, dictates a large airframe by necessity.
I think f22 is too large for us. What is defined as long range and at what profiles. Typhoon sitting at 40K ft plus can take a gd payload a long way. At 200 ft not so much.

Why all internal particularly a large air to ground load? Why all the sensors on a single platform, the very nature of a teaming system would be to move away from such things.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SW1 wrote: 12 Sep 2022, 20:56
mrclark303 wrote: 12 Sep 2022, 20:28
SW1 wrote: 12 Sep 2022, 18:54 Yeah they won’t compromise the design by placing niche and largely irrelevant requirements on the design.

The operations the aircraft will be required to do will largely dictate size and features on the a/c. Twin engines and large radar seem to feature so far. G rating at set altitude at given distance from base will largely dictate size. CAP duration 100nm may also drive fuel req depending on aar trade offs.

I’d be less keen on large internal fuel and payload bays, instead I would design in conformal tanks from the beginning that could be configured for other things or removed altogether for those less interested in range.
I'm guessing something along F22 lines in size, long range is going to be vital to the British and Japanese.

Designing an airframe large enough to retain the extensive avionics, the now vital high power generation ancillary equipment, fuel and large mixed AA/AG weapon loads internally, plus a possible direct energy weapon, in a stealthy package, dictates a large airframe by necessity.
I think f22 is too large for us. What is defined as long range and at what profiles. Typhoon sitting at 40K ft plus can take a gd payload a long way. At 200 ft not so much.

Why all internal particularly a large air to ground load? Why all the sensors on a single platform, the very nature of a teaming system would be to move away from such things.
Evening SW1, it's just my take on the direction of travel.

I feel the manned Tempest platform is going to be a leap forward, the manufacturing advances should bring down price, survivability and range will become extremely important, a stealthy design with flexible and large internal carriage abilities.

The systems and weapons needed to operate in the potentially very hostile skys of the late 2030's will mean some very high technology implementation and a need for full air dominance, not simple parity.

It points again towards a large airframe.

The teaming idea seems to have been dialed down somewhat, fully capable UCAV's becoming somewhat less sophisticated and expendable Loyal Wingmen.

So the mailed fist is very much back with the piloted platform at the moment. All our eggs will be in one basket, it will need to cover many roles, again points to a high end, large combat aircraft...

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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mrclark303 wrote: 12 Sep 2022, 22:15
SW1 wrote: 12 Sep 2022, 20:56
mrclark303 wrote: 12 Sep 2022, 20:28
SW1 wrote: 12 Sep 2022, 18:54 Yeah they won’t compromise the design by placing niche and largely irrelevant requirements on the design.

The operations the aircraft will be required to do will largely dictate size and features on the a/c. Twin engines and large radar seem to feature so far. G rating at set altitude at given distance from base will largely dictate size. CAP duration 100nm may also drive fuel req depending on aar trade offs.

I’d be less keen on large internal fuel and payload bays, instead I would design in conformal tanks from the beginning that could be configured for other things or removed altogether for those less interested in range.
I'm guessing something along F22 lines in size, long range is going to be vital to the British and Japanese.

Designing an airframe large enough to retain the extensive avionics, the now vital high power generation ancillary equipment, fuel and large mixed AA/AG weapon loads internally, plus a possible direct energy weapon, in a stealthy package, dictates a large airframe by necessity.
I think f22 is too large for us. What is defined as long range and at what profiles. Typhoon sitting at 40K ft plus can take a gd payload a long way. At 200 ft not so much.

Why all internal particularly a large air to ground load? Why all the sensors on a single platform, the very nature of a teaming system would be to move away from such things.
Evening SW1, it's just my take on the direction of travel.

I feel the manned Tempest platform is going to be a leap forward, the manufacturing advances should bring down price, survivability and range will become extremely important, a stealthy design with flexible and large internal carriage abilities.

The systems and weapons needed to operate in the potentially very hostile skys of the late 2030's will mean some very high technology implementation and a need for full air dominance, not simple parity.

It points again towards a large airframe.

The teaming idea seems to have been dialed down somewhat, fully capable UCAV's becoming somewhat less sophisticated and expendable Loyal Wingmen.

So the mailed fist is very much back with the piloted platform at the moment. All our eggs will be in one basket, it will need to cover many roles, again points to a high end, large combat aircraft...
Manufacturing advances don’t necessarily bring down price that much without rate. They usually give you big weight for size benefits but mostly cost more.

I think what the last few months has shown, is we need to be very careful about over exaggerating the opposition and what we need to do to counter them and to start overly ambitious programs. I wouldn’t necessarily agree about the dialling back of the teaming idea it may only appear that way at the minute.

The question of when should a manned aircraft penetrate a hostile air defence system and to do what is one that when answered changes things a lot.

I haven’t seen anything at present that would suggest we need to go large. I don’t think such performance metrics are what is driving the current wish for a new a/c design. The fuel efficiency of a new power plant may have a big bearing especially if top speeds are dialled back.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SW1 wrote: 12 Sep 2022, 22:37
mrclark303 wrote: 12 Sep 2022, 22:15
SW1 wrote: 12 Sep 2022, 20:56
mrclark303 wrote: 12 Sep 2022, 20:28
SW1 wrote: 12 Sep 2022, 18:54 Yeah they won’t compromise the design by placing niche and largely irrelevant requirements on the design.

The operations the aircraft will be required to do will largely dictate size and features on the a/c. Twin engines and large radar seem to feature so far. G rating at set altitude at given distance from base will largely dictate size. CAP duration 100nm may also drive fuel req depending on aar trade offs.

I’d be less keen on large internal fuel and payload bays, instead I would design in conformal tanks from the beginning that could be configured for other things or removed altogether for those less interested in range.
I'm guessing something along F22 lines in size, long range is going to be vital to the British and Japanese.

Designing an airframe large enough to retain the extensive avionics, the now vital high power generation ancillary equipment, fuel and large mixed AA/AG weapon loads internally, plus a possible direct energy weapon, in a stealthy package, dictates a large airframe by necessity.
I think f22 is too large for us. What is defined as long range and at what profiles. Typhoon sitting at 40K ft plus can take a gd payload a long way. At 200 ft not so much.

Why all internal particularly a large air to ground load? Why all the sensors on a single platform, the very nature of a teaming system would be to move away from such things.
Evening SW1, it's just my take on the direction of travel.

I feel the manned Tempest platform is going to be a leap forward, the manufacturing advances should bring down price, survivability and range will become extremely important, a stealthy design with flexible and large internal carriage abilities.

The systems and weapons needed to operate in the potentially very hostile skys of the late 2030's will mean some very high technology implementation and a need for full air dominance, not simple parity.

It points again towards a large airframe.

The teaming idea seems to have been dialed down somewhat, fully capable UCAV's becoming somewhat less sophisticated and expendable Loyal Wingmen.

So the mailed fist is very much back with the piloted platform at the moment. All our eggs will be in one basket, it will need to cover many roles, again points to a high end, large combat aircraft...
Manufacturing advances don’t necessarily bring down price that much without rate. They usually give you big weight for size benefits but mostly cost more.

I think what the last few months has shown, is we need to be very careful about over exaggerating the opposition and what we need to do to counter them and to start overly ambitious programs. I wouldn’t necessarily agree about the dialling back of the teaming idea it may only appear that way at the minute.

The question of when should a manned aircraft penetrate a hostile air defence system and to do what is one that when answered changes things a lot.

I haven’t seen anything at present that would suggest we need to go large. I don’t think such performance metrics are what is driving the current wish for a new a/c design. The fuel efficiency of a new power plant may have a big bearing especially if top speeds are dialled back.
Morning SW1, it will be very interesting to see which way things go won't it.

A smaller, less capable platform and a higher end UCAV, or a larger, more capable platform and a smaller less capable and expendable Loyal Wingman.

I personally think that without the Germans constantly paring specifications and size back, as they always did, it will be a larger ( possibly optionally manned) platform.

One things for sure, with a tight deadline set for a technology demonstrator, all will become apparent fairly soon.

It will be interesting to see if there is the same parity between the Technology demonstrator and the finished product, as there was between EAP and Eurofighter.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

Guessing two big engines and a big power hungry radar means it's going to be big. Add to that non-involvement of France means no carrier compatibility issues, plus no dumbing down from Germany.

It'll be interesting to see what lifespan it is rated to - the F15EX seems to have a much greater lifespan than anything else. I know apples and oranges, but could there be a benefit to building growth margins in

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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You need to slightly careful about comparing a/c lives as fatigue scatter factors have tended to be different which may artificially enhance some a/c claimed lives as some are factored others aren’t.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SD67 wrote: 13 Sep 2022, 11:02 It'll be interesting to see what lifespan it is rated to - the F15EX seems to have a much greater lifespan than anything else
All military Jets developed in the Cold War are having lifespans far in excess of what they were expected to be simply because there has been no major peer to peer war, thankfully, to 'fast forward' development of newer warplanes.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... hter-jets/
Italy Air Force chief heads to Japan to talk next-gen fighter jets

The head of the Italian Air Force will travel to Japan next month to hold talks with his Japanese counterpart about collaboration on sixth-generation fighter technology.

General Luca Goretti said the visit would be a chance to explore what ambitions Rome and Tokyo share for next-generation fighters and what technologies can and cannot be shared by the nations.

“In October I have been invited to Japan by the head of the Japanese air force to discuss common programs — it will be the opportunity to share our vision and common point of view,” said Goretti in an interview with Defense News.

Italy partners with the U.K. on the Tempest fighter program while Japan is pursuing its F-X program to build a replacement for the Mitsubishi F-2.

At this summer’s Farnborough Airshow, the U.K. said it would undertake “joint concept analysis” with Japan and Italy on sixth-generation technology following the announcement of a flurry of deals between U.K. and Japanese firms on engines and sensors to get the ball rolling.

“The Japanese could take technology from Tempest to insert in their F-X program. We will understand better when we realize what industry can do,” said Goretti.

He also suggested Japan might get on board with Tempest, stating, “If a partner like Japan enters a program it could be an opportunity to better understand each other’s reality.”

Any cooperation would need to take into account Japan’s area of operations and how best to exchange technology, he said.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Is it me or are the Italians trying to merge tempest and FCAS ? Just can't for the life of me see the reason why ,why Italy when could be part of an UK/Japan/ Italy...Sweden ? Program why would they want Germany and France on board,I just do not get it at all ,are the head of the Italian airforce mad ? ,UK and JAPAN are never going to be subservient to the French ,it just isn't going to happen , wether Italy stops or sees it's future with Germany and France program I don't know ,but tempest is never going to merge with France and Germany
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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inch wrote: 23 Sep 2022, 16:03 Is it me or are the Italians trying to merge tempest and FCAS ? Just can't for the life of me see the reason why ,why Italy when could be part of an UK/Japan/ Italy...Sweden ? Program why would they want Germany and France on board,I just do not get it at all ,are the head of the Italian airforce mad ? ,UK and JAPAN are never going to be subservient to the French ,it just isn't going to happen , wether Italy stops or sees it's future with Germany and France program I don't know ,but tempest is never going to merge with France and Germany
What evidence is there that Italy are pushing for a merger?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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dmereifield wrote: 23 Sep 2022, 16:21
inch wrote: 23 Sep 2022, 16:03 Is it me or are the Italians trying to merge tempest and FCAS ? Just can't for the life of me see the reason why ,why Italy when could be part of an UK/Japan/ Italy...Sweden ? Program why would they want Germany and France on board,I just do not get it at all ,are the head of the Italian airforce mad ? ,UK and JAPAN are never going to be subservient to the French ,it just isn't going to happen , wether Italy stops or sees it's future with Germany and France program I don't know ,but tempest is never going to merge with France and Germany
What evidence is there that Italy are pushing for a merger?
It's just rhetoric but nearly every statement from Italian officials or industry talks of the inevitable merger of the two programmes.

In the above from General Luca Goretti, head of the Aeronautica Militare:
“The French and Germans have gone one way, but we cannot have two platforms doing the same thing in Europe. It may not be economically sustainable. It is logical to say it is very probable that when the nations have defined their requirements, we will see a convergence into a single platform,”
From last year, also Goretti: https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/ ... 021-11-23/

From 2019 (Alessandro Profumo, CEO, Leonardo): https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... an-effort/

Probably best not to read too deeply into the comments. I think FCAS and SCAF are about as far away from merging as they have been since the initial UK/FR split. Could well be diplomatic lip service to the SCAF partners; opportunistically keeping their options open or, as I suspect most likely, a bluff to ensure their workshare and potentially a final assembly line in Italy for a manned Tempest.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Thanks for the info. Hopefully just the views of one EUrophile officer
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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dmereifield wrote: 23 Sep 2022, 21:30 Thanks for the info. Hopefully just the views of one EUrophile officer
Absolutely, no chance whatsoever, if it happened it would simply ensure both programmes were doomed..
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

UK and Japan would go it alone and leave Italy out in the cold to try get on the French German program, like to see how that work share split would go lol , good luck Italy trying to snatch defeat out of a program you could already have victory in lol


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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

Agreed, we can easily do this as a 50/50 UK Japan venture. I guess it’s up to the incoming Italian government, they’re very dependent on Russian gas, this winter will be a test case

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SD67 wrote: 25 Sep 2022, 16:32 Agreed, we can easily do this as a 50/50 UK Japan venture. I guess it’s up to the incoming Italian government, they’re very dependent on Russian gas, this winter will be a test case
Completely agree but they also seem be very anti EU, but we really should be pushing to have Japan a full member of the program first and for most abd then maybe even look at attracting the like of Canada and Australia IMO

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Meriv9 »

new goverment isnt going to be that anti-EU

And on Russian here the facts.

In Western EU we are the most Anti-Russian

Image

And if we commit to something we follow the rules.

Image

And since im already here and normally the other stereotype about Italy is debt. Here the Global debt.

Image

You can imagine scenarios where we leave Team Tempest to go for France and Germany but i think they are really really unprobable.
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SD67
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Here's hoping so. I admit to being not an expert on Italian political coalition building and deal making, but then UK politics is not exactly an Island of stability at the moment.

Very interesting charts by the way, surprised to see France so red

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Military Aviation is our strongest area for defence exports by quite a Margine, and we have had quite some success in partnership with other European Countries with both Tornado and Typhoon. Team Tempest is the nearest thing we have to a national defence programme that we have given the number of companies already involved, and it appears to stand on firmer ground that the Franco/German alternative. The fact that countries outside of Europe may also become involved is to the programmes credit. Tempesst will end up being the only real competitor to the next generation US platform and as such has the prospect of reasonable export sales in the future. If the worst were to happen, at a bare minimum we should have the next generation of avionics and munitions taht could be used to keep Typhoon and possibly the F-35 with regard to the latter on point.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Starmer will use Tempest as a bargaining chip to suck up to the EU.

He will be promised more "good will" in return.

Whitehall will advise that this is a good deal.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Zero Gravitas wrote: 07 Nov 2022, 19:09 Starmer will use Tempest as a bargaining chip to suck up to the EU.

He will be promised more "good will" in return.

Whitehall will advise that this is a good deal.
Groan - i hope not true !!! The only was Tempest can progress is too keep the EU away from it. Period.

We have Japan onboaard soon, and we have Italy/Sweden as technology providers aswell - we can all the ingredients we need.

We are better off cancelling outright the Tempest programme and buying a COTS solution from the USA than to try and develop Tempest with the EU lot ....

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Timmymagic »

Some detail around Airbus' Loyal Wingman / Heavy Remote Carrier concept, clearly similar to the Ghost Bat with a modular nose and internal bay.

View:

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Ares »

Joint development of Next-generation fighter by Japan, Britain, and Italy, agreement to be reached next month, future export in mind

The government has decided to jointly develop a successor to the Air Self-Defense Force's F2 fighter with Britain and Italy. A formal agreement is expected next month. With an eye on exports after development, along with the revision of the three security-related documents, the government plans to review the operational guidelines for the "Three Principles on Transfer of Defense Equipment," which permit the export of weapons under certain conditions, with the aim of exporting them in the future.

The next-generation fighter will be deployed by around 2035, when the F2 will begin to be retired.

According to government officials, the aircraft will be developed by Japan's Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and British defense giant BAE Systems. Italy's leading aerospace and defense company, Leonardo, will also participate. Japan's IHI and Britain's major aircraft engine manufacturer Rolls-Royce will play a central role in engine development, with Italy's Avio, which also handles aircraft engines, expected to join.
https://news.yahoo.co.jp/articles/002d7 ... 9f1ae56964
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