Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
Timmymagic
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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GarethDavies1 wrote: 14 Aug 2022, 20:09 I think 911 destroyed 98SDR
Agreed.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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true I missed that

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Jensy
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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An interesting Twitter thread, touching on Sweden's perspective of Tempest and where they see themselves in connection to the project:


"We are not out of the programme, but there has been a hibernation period for Sweden while we set how the UK, Italy, and Japan set up the programe. I am not sure how this will play out".
Not exactly surprising considering the difference in size and role between Gripen NG and what Tempest is shaping up to be.

Not sure where else they could go, considering SCAF is of a similar size plus nuke and carrier capable. Going it alone is unlikely considering the lacklustre export sales of Gripen. Also both of their neighbours buying F-35.

Back in June Saab announced this:
https://www.saab.com/newsroom/press-rel ... evelopment

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

Here's one for you folks,which program will be the most tech advanced in people's opinion the French/German / Spanish FCAS program or the UK/Japan/Italy .. Sweden? Tempest program ? Guess both will be cutting edge and each Will have it's good points and bad points compared with each other jet ,also maybe different missions involved ie carrier strike and maybe selling to differing customers after sales ,keep it fun thanks:-)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Jensy wrote: 26 Aug 2022, 17:00 An interesting Twitter thread, touching on Sweden's perspective of Tempest and where they see themselves in connection to the project:


"We are not out of the programme, but there has been a hibernation period for Sweden while we set how the UK, Italy, and Japan set up the programe. I am not sure how this will play out".
Not exactly surprising considering the difference in size and role between Gripen NG and what Tempest is shaping up to be.

Not sure where else they could go, considering SCAF is of a similar size plus nuke and carrier capable. Going it alone is unlikely considering the lacklustre export sales of Gripen. Also both of their neighbours buying F-35.

Back in June Saab announced this:
https://www.saab.com/newsroom/press-rel ... evelopment
Is the low level of SAAB involvement due to the fact that the other countries have goverment backing with money and the involvement of SAAB is purely on commerical grounds - ie no funding by the Swedish goverment ? Meanining SAAB has to "self finance" versus get paid by the Tempest partners to "do things" and they are struggling with self-financing or the Tempest partners are not willing to finance core IP development for SAAB to own when they easily finance it for their own industries to do ?
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Well you haven’t put any money in Sweden what do you expect? The Swedes right now have effectively observer status.

The main gate is in 2024/5 at that stage maybe SAAB becomes a research partner while UK/Japan/Italy proceed to build

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Hopefully the Swedish government will throw SAAB a bone and become a true partner in the program , would be great to have Sweden fully involved in program and having top notch long range strike 6th gen aircraft that is definitely going to give Russia a real tangible threat to worry about across the boltic , come on Sweden you can do it :-)
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mrclark303
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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inch wrote: 27 Aug 2022, 16:06 Hopefully the Swedish government will throw SAAB a bone and become a true partner in the program , would be great to have Sweden fully involved in program and having top notch long range strike 6th gen aircraft that is definitely going to give Russia a real tangible threat to worry about across the boltic , come on Sweden you can do it :-)
I agree, there is an opportunity here for Sweden to perhaps fully commit and design a smaller single engine aircraft as part of the wider Tempest family, using the engine, avionics and build approach of the parent programme.

SAAB could take partnership airframe design lead and manufacture of a light single engine Tempest variant that would potentially hit a wider market.

Unfortunately, I can see Sweden backing out as the project accelerates and partners are required to show the colour of their money......

That aside, Gripen E (and it's excellent pilots) is still far ahead of anything it's likely to meet from a hostile Russia over the cold waters of the Baltic for many years to come.

It's got an excellent avionics and weapons package and very small visual and head on radar signature.
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Jensy
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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mrclark303 wrote: 28 Aug 2022, 12:35 I agree, there is an opportunity here for Sweden to perhaps fully commit and design a smaller single engine aircraft as part of the wider Tempest family, using the engine, avionics and build approach of the parent programme.

SAAB could take partnership airframe design lead and manufacture of a light single engine Tempest variant that would potentially hit a wider market.
Not a million miles away from the early history of Gripen. When BAE was a major partner on the programme, they saw it is a good product to sit between Hawk and Typhoon.

Sadly sales have never quite lived up to that hope.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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But if it was a Gripen+, with some elements of wider Tempest family, it might provide a more capable aircraft to fill a niche but still far cheaper than full Tempest.

But agree - there does seem to be higher risk of Sweden dropping out, specially if still being financed by SAAB rather Swedeish Goverment as mentioned earlier.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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With Gripen and globaleye Sweden have a capability that is at least two generations ahead of there principle opposition and a historic doctrine for dispersed operations across their country. The same would be said for for our fast jet fleet with the exception we may need to resource and practice dispersed austere operations a bit more like we have in past but given what we have witness from our principle adversary and tactics to counter them its hard to see the rationale for launching into a new fighter as a priority no matter how exciting that maybe.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Jensy wrote: 28 Aug 2022, 16:46
mrclark303 wrote: 28 Aug 2022, 12:35 I agree, there is an opportunity here for Sweden to perhaps fully commit and design a smaller single engine aircraft as part of the wider Tempest family, using the engine, avionics and build approach of the parent programme.

SAAB could take partnership airframe design lead and manufacture of a light single engine Tempest variant that would potentially hit a wider market.
Not a million miles away from the early history of Gripen. When BAE was a major partner on the programme, they saw it is a good product to sit between Hawk and Typhoon.

Sadly sales have never quite lived up to that hope.
Sales have been disappointing, but I don't think that's a reflection on what is an excellent aircraft.

It has always been known that combat aircraft programmes have four forces to contend with..

Thrust, Drag, lift and politics!

The Gripen gets stymied by the Americans all the time as counties make the political choice to join the F35 and F16 club.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Which means that to win orders Gripen needs to sell to “countries the US is not that keen on selling to”. But they canot really as the engine is ITAR restricted.
But put a “Tempest - lite” engine in there and the picture changes
I still think the Middle eastern market is up for grabs. Only UAE have been allowed to buy F35s
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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I think the radar is itar restricted too but maybe not in the new one as they learned that lesson the hard way

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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This why Tempest has to be ITAR free !!!!! If it is not - then the Americans have a veto on the sale of the Tempest which then allows them to pimp their wares to them.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Think Japan and UK will know this and hopefully not let that situation arise
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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I have always been concerned about our willingness to sell our top tier aircraft to the Gulf States. Iran is the lesson in point and Saudi could change to a Theocracy very easily. IF Saudi goes other states will be in danger of following. Remember the majority of ISIS's funding came from Saudi nationals though not the Government.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SW1 wrote: 29 Aug 2022, 10:01 I think the radar is itar restricted too but maybe not in the new one as they learned that lesson the hard way
The radar is ITAR free. Its essentially made by Leonardo UK in Edinburgh. Basically a smaller derivatice of Captor-E.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Timmymagic wrote: 29 Aug 2022, 23:04
SW1 wrote: 29 Aug 2022, 10:01 I think the radar is itar restricted too but maybe not in the new one as they learned that lesson the hard way
The radar is ITAR free. Its essentially made by Leonardo UK in Edinburgh. Basically a smaller derivatice of Captor-E.
I thought Gripen E 's new radar was a purely Swedish effort

Previous generations (Typhoon and Gripen) shared a common ancestor radar in the excellent Blue Vixen Radar.

This was the starting point for the ECR 90 and it's Swedish derivatives l believe.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SD67 wrote: 29 Aug 2022, 09:59 Which means that to win orders Gripen needs to sell to “countries the US is not that keen on selling to”. But they canot really as the engine is ITAR restricted.
But put a “Tempest - lite” engine in there and the picture changes
I still think the Middle eastern market is up for grabs. Only UAE have been allowed to buy F35s
No doubt about it. There is a real opportunity to corner the market here for a heavy and light Tempest option.

SAAB is in an excellent position to design and build a tough ( son of Gripen) single engine airframe for the partnership, leveraging in on the new automated techniques and materials, engine and avionics. They would make great partners....

I can see them dropping out unfortunately, as the Swedish government probably won't come up with the money, I think that's a real shame and a lost opportunity.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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I'm not so pessimistic on Sweden dropping out of the Tempest programme. They will certainly be aware of the need to progress aviation technology as well as the immediate threat of Russia - they did just join NATO after all. I think the best way to credibly maintain their military aviation capability is to join with international partners - this has been the UK's approach and has been successful. I don't see SAAB being very successful by themselves - they've done well up to now - as technology has progressed beyond what a single small country can fund. I'm sure the Swedish government are aware of this and I'm sure Tempest will be their strategy. I expect there will be some funding announcements before too long.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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That’s not how Saab or Sweden have worked. They focus on certain tech areas important to them as a whole and then buy in other systems
from elsewhere and integrate it into an airframe that suits there needs. Therefore not developing everything new. They have particularly focused on avionics and the flight control software in this development.

To a certain extent we have followed the approach with type 31. It a gd way to develop new equipment and get value in your budget.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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matt00773 wrote: 30 Aug 2022, 13:48 I'm not so pessimistic on Sweden dropping out of the Tempest programme. They will certainly be aware of the need to progress aviation technology as well as the immediate threat of Russia - they did just join NATO after all. I think the best way to credibly maintain their military aviation capability is to join with international partners - this has been the UK's approach and has been successful. I don't see SAAB being very successful by themselves - they've done well up to now - as technology has progressed beyond what a single small country can fund. I'm sure the Swedish government are aware of this and I'm sure Tempest will be their strategy. I expect there will be some funding announcements before too long.
I hope so Matt, all will become apparent over the next few years. The world situation has put a rocket under Tempest and accelerated the whole programme.

Money will have to be forthcoming from all partners within this timeframe, or those that don't cough up, will be brushed aside.

Best case for Sweden if they don't commit, will be observer status and scraps off the table for SAAB in years to come....

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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mrclark303 wrote: 29 Aug 2022, 23:13 I thought Gripen E 's new radar was a purely Swedish effort
Here you go...

https://electronics.leonardo.com/en/products/raven-1

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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