Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
Meriv9
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Meriv9 »

OK then the Bundeswehr's Federal Office for Equipment, Information Technology and In-Service Support [BAAINBw] Musn't have received the memo that the EMBT is as good as the FCAS

THis from french Media http://www.opex360.com/2021/06/06/aviat ... r-le-scaf/
What's more, Germany has questioned the division of labor as it had been envisaged. "You know that this is a project under French leadership, but it is still necessary for the German partners to be at a satisfactory level with their [French] counterparts. So we need to look very carefully at the issues of industrial property, task sharing and leadership sharing," German Chancellor Angela Merkel said at the end of a Franco-German defense council on February 5.

On this point, Mrs. Merkel was merely reporting the Bundestag's reservations about defending the interests of German industry in this project. Already, in February 2020, German MPs had their ears pulled back to vote for the launch of Phase 1A of the SCAF.



Finally, after a thinly veiled threat from Dassault Aviation to implement a "plan B" if it did not have all the levers it considered necessary to fulfill its role as prime contractor for the NGF while preserving its intellectual property, the industrialists finally came to an agreement. They then submitted a proposal to the three countries concerned.

On May 17, the latter announced the "finalization of discussions on the content of the next phase of the program". This, according to industry sources quoted by Challenges, was probably premature. "There is no agreement on the budget, nor on intellectual property," said one of them. It is a "communication posture" and a "mendacious statement", denounced another...

In any case, the agreement on Phase 1B still has to be validated by the Bundestag's Finance Committee, ideally by the end of June, i.e. before the end of the parliamentary session and the start of the campaign for the German federal elections next September.

In the meantime, the influential weekly Der Spiegel has had access to two confidential documents that are highly critical of the SCAF. The first, written by experts from the Bundeswehr's Federal Office for Equipment, Information Technology and In-Service Support [BAAINBw], says the Phase 1B agreement "needs to be renegotiated from a technical and economic point of view" because "in its current form" it is "not ready to be signed.



According to Der Spiegel, the BAAINBw believes that there is a "significant risk that critical technologies will not be sufficiently mature in time" and that "deadlines cannot be met".

In addition, the report argues that "innovative technological approaches" are "difficult to identify," meaning that there is also a risk that "critical technologies will not be considered at all or will be considered in later phases without being financially viable."

Finally, the BAAINBw experts argue that the "structures and rules" are not in line with "German interests" and that they "almost exclusively satisfy French positions. And they insist: "French domination is very much embedded in the program.

The other report mentioned by Der Spiegel and submitted last week comes from the German Ministry of Defense. And it comes to almost the same conclusion as the BAAINBw, stating that a "strong French position" would mean that the goal of "developing a sixth-generation fighter aircraft would be missed" and that the SCAF program would be reduced to a "Rafale Plus approach with German and Spanish budget funds. "

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
This one from a German one (NTv)
Germany, Spain and France want to bring the new European fighter jet into the air together. Internally, the Bundeswehr says: a project dominated by Paris that the other two are supposed to pay for. In addition, there are hardly any "innovative technological approaches".

The showcase project for a joint European fighter jet is met with reservations, according to "Spiegel". In a secret statement for the Defense Ministry, experts from the German Armed Forces procurement office in Koblenz come to the conclusion that the contract with France and Spain "has to be renegotiated from a technical and economic point of view," as the news magazine reports. In its current form, the experts consider the contract to be "not ready to be signed".

There is a "significant risk that critical technologies are not made mature enough, not in good time or not sufficiently" and that the deadlines cannot be met, "Spiegel" quotes from the paper. "Innovative technological approaches" are "hardly recognizable" anyway. This means that there is the risk that "essential technologies will either not be considered at all or only be considered in later phases and then not be financially viable".

"French Dominance"
After months of wrangling, Germany, France and Spain agreed in principle on how to proceed with the FCAS air combat system in mid-May. At the beginning of the week, Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Emmanuel Macron announced the agreement on the development of the new fighter jet, which will succeed the Eurofighter and the French Rafale from around 2040.

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In the opinion of the experts, "structures and rules" which "are not in the German interest and almost exclusively satisfy French positions" will be updated with the contract, "Spiegel" quotes from the report. This means that "French dominance is very firmly anchored in the program".

According to the magazine, a secret status report from the Federal Ministry of Defense from last week comes to a similar assessment. It said that the "strong French positioning" would mean that the goal of "developing a sixth generation fighter aircraft" would be missed and that the project would instead become a "Rafale Plus approach with German and Spanish budget funds"
Both of them from few days ago.

And don't you find it strange that even if it is German leading (thus the benefits will be mostly German) on the EMBT the Germans want to open to partnerships (ITA and UK) meanwhile the French oppose them? If it is a German project why the need to oppose ? (this was from Defensenews) as you said it is and exchange so there should be no opposition from them after all it is German side of the deal

Plus I hardly see the EMBT having a 100bln+ budget tlike the FCAS one. ( but on this one i could be completely wrong).

Defiance
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Defiance »

Meriv9 wrote: And don't you find it strange that even if it is German leading (thus the benefits will be mostly German) on the EMBT the Germans want to open to partnerships (ITA and UK) meanwhile the French oppose them?
Because France is capable of squeezing Germany (if she's alone) to get what they want. If Germany got some partners with some backbone behind them then the French don't quite so easily run the whole show without threatening to pull out (again).

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Meriv9 wrote: reduced to a "Rafale Plus approach with German and Spanish budget funds. "
Funnily enough, exactly what the chief of the French AF presented as their offer, to the Belgian parliament, before the choice (for F-35) was made.

What I find strange is that while the flying test bed is supposedly going to be Rafale-based, the other alternative does not get mentioned:
www.aerosociety.com › news › lout-of-the-black

08/11/2019 · Unveiled for the first time to aviation media this week in an anechoic test chamber at Airbus Defence and Space's facility in Manching, Germany, was a 12m wingspan diamond-shaped aircraft called LOUT (Low Observable UAV Technology) that has been developed as a classified national German as a Skunk Works-style secret project.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

A double; the network must have dropped for one second and the 'commit' confirmation did not (?) arrive back
... sorry
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Defiance
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Defiance »

ArmChairCivvy wrote: What I find strange is that while the flying test bed is supposedly going to be Rafale-based, the other alternative does not get mentioned:
http://www.aerosociety.com › news › lout-of-the-black

08/11/2019 · Unveiled for the first time to aviation media this week in an anechoic test chamber at Airbus Defence and Space's facility in Manching, Germany, was a 12m wingspan diamond-shaped aircraft called LOUT (Low Observable UAV Technology) that has been developed as a classified national German as a Skunk Works-style secret project.
Germany was seeking a demonstrator based on Typhoon technology to slide more work their way, but it appears they relented somewhat and allowed M88 to be used for the time being.

They'd like to use their LOUT knowledge in a prototype, but the question is will Dassault let them? I suspect we know the answer to that one.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Defiance wrote: They'd like to use their LOUT knowledge in a prototype, but the question is will Dassault let them? I suspect we know the answer to that one.
Dassault is, still, a state within a state... will be interesting to see how this one will play out.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

jonas
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by jonas »

Commons written answers 7th June 2021 :-

https://questions-statements.parliament ... 05-27/8734

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

That SNP question was a bit of a shot in own leg
... or is it that the Edinburgh region has not been converted to the Independence cause, yet?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Lord Jim
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Lord Jim »

I always though France sees Germany as a Bank they can use to finance their next generation air platform, and will given them input and manufacturing but only up to a point. The French want a platform to supplement and them replace Rafale in service with the Air Force and Naval Air Arm and they have a pretty set timeframe. They will not let Germany interfere with the key capability requirements they have to meet these goals even if the platform ends up costing more.

This seems very different from TEMPEST where the idea at present seems to be to develop cutting edge technology that will deliver a next generation platform that is affordable.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Defiance »

Lord Jim wrote:They will not let Germany interfere with the key capability requirements they have to meet these goals even if the platform ends up costing more.
They're gunna be pretty PO'd when Germany asks them they need it to be B-61 compatible with all the associated gubbins!

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Defiance wrote: They'd like to use their LOUT knowledge in a prototype, but the question is will Dassault let them? I suspect we know the answer to that one.
Dassault is, still, a state within a state... will be interesting to see how this one will play out.
Dassault is a family business, still I believe 47% owned by the family holding company. Spending your own money has a way of focussing the mind. I don't blame them frankly I wouldn't trust Germany on this, especially with the Greens almost certain to be in government next year

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

SD67 wrote:Dassault is a family business, still I believe 47% owned by the family holding company. Spending your own money has a way of focussing the mind.
Exactly as you say: These joint prgrms mint the coins
... and then they cut :lolno: them
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SW1 »

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/uk-to-h ... x-fighter/

Japanese media has reported that Japan has decided that it will develop the engine for the F-X fighter with help from Britain.

Rolls-Royce will partner with Japan’s IHI Corporation and both will also offer the engine for the export market.

inch
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

Good for tempest program if pans out true I quess , making it a little more viable to actually getting something out of it better than cash strapped cutting costs to suit limited budget ,a thumbs up from me :thumbup:

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by TheLoneRanger »

https://www.asahi.com/articles/ASP726S4CP71UTFK008.html

The original article for the Japanese speakers here.

With helpful google translation : https://translate.google.com/translate? ... FK008.html

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Ron5 »

Having a UK carrier visit the area on its first deployment and Boris announcing the UK will be more active in far east defense, is very relevant to this announcement.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

Well reading the article ,the engine is a major huge part of any future fighter and if could also cooperation on the electronic side of systems even partial would be massif move forward for the tempest ,and if engine for export also ,well knock at turkey and South Korea front door offering latest hi tech engine , thats one great thing going in uk/ RR favour is the world leader in engine tech who any country would be glad to have on board as a partner ,think that's a major advantage over the French/ German fcas program ,...well we could sell them a future engine I quess for their fighter lol, tongue in cheek , France would never go for it !, wonder if fcas will ever be for export because Germany not allowing it ,ha well their problems not ours hopefully ?

SD67
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

Well that's a helluva big chunk of the project de-risked. Economies of scale in R&D and future upgrade paths. They're going to struggle to find some creative way of making the two aircraft look different ;-)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Pseudo »

It looks like the government are pulling back significantly on Tempest funding.
The UK government's Infrastructure and Projects Authority (IPA) has revealed in its annual report published on 15 July a GBP370 million (USD510 million) cut in the budget to build the Tempest Future Combat Air System. In its first public assessment of the programme to build a replacement for the UK Royal Air Force's (RAF's) Typhoon combat aircraft, the IPA gave the project an amber/red risk rating, saying there are “major risks or issues apparent in a number of key areas”. For the first time, the scale of UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) funding for Tempest was revealed to be GBP9.46 billion.

The IPA said that the ministry had capped spending on the first four years of the Tempest programme at GBP12.8 billion despite the UK's Integrated Review of Security, Defence, Development, and Foreign Policy in March allocating some GBP1.65 billion for the aircraft's concept and assessment phase.

“The level of investment was significantly less than required, however it preserves the feasibility of the programme within current parameters, but adds significant overall programme risk, particularly to the assumed date for initial operating capability,” the IPA said. “The concept and assessment phase will provide the evidence for programme viability, including level of additional investment and/or other options for the provision of combat air. Investments and milestones beyond this phase are subject to a margin of error in terms of time, cost, and performance that will be refined prior to the next decision gate.”

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Timmymagic »

I do wish the trade press (and the press in general) would actually get a real understanding of IPA RAG statuses. Yes there is a clear definition of what each level means (Red, Red/Amber, Amber, Amber/Green and Green) in writing, but the actual RAG status assigned to GMPP programmes is given in a rather opaque manner. Reviewers are brought in to an IPA review (either at a defined Gateway, or at the request of the SRO for a semi private PAR) and assign a RAG status and issue a report. They are exceptionally conservative with this, after all no one will ever criticise them for a programme that they assign a Red RAG to that goes on to be successful...giving a Green to a programme that fails is an issue however...

Speaking from experience I recently completed a GMPP programme, we were rated Red for 4 years, before making a brief foray into Amber/Red. By any reading of the definition we should failed or have been stopped. We were given a Green rating only at the final Gateway....as we had delivered a 'novel and contentious' programme early, under budget, with rave reviews from industry/users and with provable cash benefits over twice as great as the business case stated (and we were told for years that it was overly ambitious)....

Basically... treat RAG statuses with a degree of caution....Red and Red/Amber do not always mean what the definition says...other variables are factored in with a great big dollop of reviewers caution and bias.

SD67
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

It's funny, HS2 has not had an IPA review since 2015.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Ron5
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Ron5 »

ground breaking collaboration
What the heck does that bullshit mean?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Pseudo »

Ron5 wrote:
ground breaking collaboration
What the heck does that bullshit mean?
It's definitely a phrase I'd avoid when talking about aerospace projects.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SW1 »

https://www.baesystems.com/en/article/m ... capability

The Ministry of Defence (MOD) has awarded a contract worth approximately £250m to progress the design and development of Tempest, the UK’s Future Combat Air System (FCAS). The contract, signed by BAE Systems, officially marks the start of the programme’s concept and assessment phase.

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