Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

[Zeno]

"Modifying tempest for CATOBAR ops would be idiotic because:
. no demand with FMAF while using F-35B"
It may be difficult to consider the benefits of a navalised Tempest when its not known of what its performances are, we could expect a long range aircraft perhaps being able to carry different munitions to the F-35B ,but as this is at least ten years into the future ,the timeline of replacing the Eurofighter, we have to wait and expect the F-35B,s to have had a few block upgrades in the meantime

[SW1]

If you want a “carrier” capable a/c it needs to be designed in from the start as it will size in particular your wing area, landing gear, keel beam, spar and pylon mounting structures. It’s not something you add later!

If they really are mad enough to be looking at this again for the post 2035 environment they really need to make a decision as the window for a joined up long term roadmap is rapidly closing.

F35 would have been a much simpler program had they only built the f35c with engine, fuel, and gun mounting options and the removal of tail hook and fairings for land operators.

[jedibeeftrix]

If you want a “carrier” capable a/c it needs to be designed in from the start as it will size in particular your wing area, landing gear, keel beam, spar and pylon mounting structures. It’s not something you add later!

Carrying on the SAAB GCAP accession - and the possibility of a ITAR-free light single-engine fighter derived from the Tempest program - would this be the moment to consider post-F35b carrier avaiation?

[SW1]

If you want a “carrier” capable a/c it needs to be designed in from the start as it will size in particular your wing area, landing gear, keel beam, spar and pylon mounting structures. It’s not something you add later!

Carrying on the SAAB GCAP accession - and the possibility of a ITAR-free light single-engine fighter derived from the Tempest program - would this be the moment to consider post-F35b carrier avaiation?

Personally if you’re gonna do it you do it now and make the decision. We are too small to have two fighter fleets imo.

Your looking to an era post 2045 ish you would be looking to bring in the a/c and get it up and running and established on land before getting the training and deployment at sea later on.

Regardless of the press I don’t see anything to suggest two manned a/c coming out of tempest program.

[Zeno]

The Tempest program is I understand to be able to replace the Eurofighter , I have suggested the consideration of a navalised version if catobar is already being considered in what in would add to a potential flight wing and possibly exportable

[new guy]

The Tempest program is I understand to be able to replace the Eurofighter , I have suggested the consideration of a navalised version if catobar is already being considered in what in would add to a potential flight wing and possibly exportable

Export to who?
To be used by who?

[serge750]

Judging by the, probably conservative, estimations of what NGAD is going to cost State-side I think we need to accept that GCAP will be considerably more expensive than F35 or Typhoon. Maybe even multitudes higher,

As such, a cheaper platform that makes use of, expensively developed, GCAP elements might well be more a necessity than a luxury if the RAF wishes to possess triple figures of fast jets post 2040.

That this has been leaked to aerospace and defence media suggests that at a very least it has been, or is being, considered by either industry or government. Something that merely "hasn't been ruled out" requires neither mention nor explanation.

Can't help but suffer flashbacks of post-2015 discussions about Type 31.....

[Spitfire9]

The Tempest program is I understand to be able to replace the Eurofighter , I have suggested the consideration of a navalised version if catobar is already being considered in what in would add to a potential flight wing and possibly exportable

Export to who?
To be used by who?

My take of export customers by 2050

Not Russia
Not China
Not US
Not France
Not India - it it built more carriers, they would be equipped with TEDBF (currently under development)
Probably not South Korea - if it built 1 or more carriers, it would probably develop KF-21 N
Probably not Brazil - if it acquired 1 or more new carriers, it would probably develop Gripen N

I think that the chances of exporting a navalised version of Tempest would be very low.

[new guy]

The Tempest program is I understand to be able to replace the Eurofighter , I have suggested the consideration of a navalised version if catobar is already being considered in what in would add to a potential flight wing and possibly exportable

Export to who?
To be used by who?

My take of export customers by 2050

Not Russia
Not China
Not US
Not France
Not India - it it built more carriers, they would be equipped with TEDBF (currently under development)
Probably not South Korea - if it built 1 or more carriers, it would probably develop KF-21 N
Probably not Brazil - if it acquired 1 or more new carriers, it would probably develop Gripen N

I think that the chances of exporting a navalised version of Tempest would be very low.

Exactly

[SD67]

Judging by the, probably conservative, estimations of what NGAD is going to cost State-side I think we need to accept that GCAP will be considerably more expensive than F35 or Typhoon. Maybe even multitudes higher,

As such, a cheaper platform that makes use of, expensively developed, GCAP elements might well be more a necessity than a luxury if the RAF wishes to possess triple figures of fast jets post 2040.

That this has been leaked to aerospace and defence media suggests that at a very least it has been, or is being, considered by either industry or government. Something that merely "hasn't been ruled out" requires neither mention nor explanation.

Can't help but suffer flashbacks of post-2015 discussions about Type 31.....

Here's a radical approach - sell / license one of the GCAP engines to the French, then FCAS effectively becomes the light, carrier compatible variant.
I question whether the FCAS partners will be able to develop a 6th gen compatible engine within the time frame, they're way behind Rolls.
Incoming government ticks the European box without needing to go through the pain of a full program merger.
F15 is a 40,000 lb aircraft, Rafale is 22,000 so if GCAP is F15 sized the two are compatible.
I know this is all wild speculation

[SW1]

Judging by the, probably conservative, estimations of what NGAD is going to cost State-side I think we need to accept that GCAP will be considerably more expensive than F35 or Typhoon. Maybe even multitudes higher,

As such, a cheaper platform that makes use of, expensively developed, GCAP elements might well be more a necessity than a luxury if the RAF wishes to possess triple figures of fast jets post 2040.

That this has been leaked to aerospace and defence media suggests that at a very least it has been, or is being, considered by either industry or government. Something that merely "hasn't been ruled out" requires neither mention nor explanation.

Can't help but suffer flashbacks of post-2015 discussions about Type 31.....

I would not be trying to extrapolate cost from US programs to U.K. ones. Engineering cost are somewhat cheaper in the U.K. than the U.S. Speculation is speculation some more facts may appear at RIAT rather than at the Paris air show next week. I would also not get too carried away on size right now either.

You will start to see single engined unmanned a/c shortly which maybe considered the mass elements.

[Timmymagic]

I question whether the FCAS partners will be able to develop a 6th gen compatible engine within the time frame, they're way behind Rolls.

Given that it appears that GCAP appears to be heading towards a 22m airframe I doubt that a GCAP engine would fit in SCAF along with ducting...

And again for emphasis....22 metres is longer than an SU-35 (21.9m), F-15 (19.5m), F-22 (19m), YF-23 (20.5m) AND J-20 (21m).....

A MiG-31 is only 22.5m long....

[SD67]

Wow. That thing's not flying off an aircraft carrier anytime soon. Not that much shorter than TSR2

[ThreeHeadedLion]

Judging by the, probably conservative, estimations of what NGAD is going to cost State-side I think we need to accept that GCAP will be considerably more expensive than F35 or Typhoon. Maybe even multitudes higher,

As such, a cheaper platform that makes use of, expensively developed, GCAP elements might well be more a necessity than a luxury if the RAF wishes to possess triple figures of fast jets post 2040.

That this has been leaked to aerospace and defence media suggests that at a very least it has been, or is being, considered by either industry or government. Something that merely "hasn't been ruled out" requires neither mention nor explanation.

Can't help but suffer flashbacks of post-2015 discussions about Type 31.....

Here's a radical approach - sell / license one of the GCAP engines to the French, then FCAS effectively becomes the light, carrier compatible variant.
I question whether the FCAS partners will be able to develop a 6th gen compatible engine within the time frame, they're way behind Rolls.
Incoming government ticks the European box without needing to go through the pain of a full program merger.
F15 is a 40,000 lb aircraft, Rafale is 22,000 so if GCAP is F15 sized the two are compatible.
I know this is all wild speculation

One major issue you are forgetting here. For the French, something being good or not is far less important than it being French.

[Zeno]

I would believe that the R.N may consider Tempest for its ships if such an improvement in capabilities over the F-35B could be shown ,if the R.N was to then other countries operating the f-35b may follow may follow suit
https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articl ... e-fighter/

[Spitfire9]

I question whether the FCAS partners will be able to develop a 6th gen compatible engine within the time frame, they're way behind Rolls.

Given that it appears that GCAP appears to be heading towards a 22m airframe I doubt that a GCAP engine would fit in SCAF along with ducting...

And again for emphasis....22 metres is longer than an SU-35 (21.9m), F-15 (19.5m), F-22 (19m), YF-23 (20.5m) AND J-20 (21m).....

A MiG-31 is only 22.5m long....

If GCAP is going to have a very large airframe and will need a very high electrical generation capacity, what sort of thrust will be required of the engine used to power it? Anyone got some idea?

[Little J]

At a rough guess, something the size of PW F-35, so 40,000lbs or there abouts...

[Spitfire9]

At a rough guess, something the size of PW F-35, so 40,000lbs or there abouts...

Thanks.

I guess the engine would be too powerful for use in Indian AMCA (around 26.000 lbs max thrust required). TAI KAAN uses F110 rated at about 29,000 lbs thrust so I guess it would be too powerful for use in that, too. Should Sweden choose to pursue its Flygsystem 202 single engine fighter project to follow on from Gripen E, I wonder if a derated GCAP engine could be used for a 19/20 tonnes MTOW design.

[new guy]

I would believe that the R.N may consider Tempest for its ships if such an improvement in capabilities over the F-35B could be shown ,if the R.N was to then other countries operating the f-35b may follow may follow suit

There is zero chance of Tempest ever going to sea...it is not being built for that environment, and making it capable of shipborne use would be detrimental to the whole effort, as SCAF will find out in due course...

[Zeno]

I did use that word " if" and since the M.O.D has already stated as such its a moot point , still some neighboring country may have been looking for something for its upcoming expensive carrier lol

[mrclark303]

At a rough guess, something the size of PW F-35, so 40,000lbs or there abouts...

My best but would be a turbojet in the 30,000 lbs class and substantially smaller than F35's lower plant.
It will be influenced by EJ200, but using new technology

[Spitfire9]

At a rough guess, something the size of PW F-35, so 40,000lbs or there abouts...

My best but would be a turbojet in the 30,000 lbs class and substantially smaller than F35's lower plant.
It will be influenced by EJ200, but using new technology

EJ200 was based on a 1980's RR design, wasn't it? I would be surprised if the GCAP engine was not a clean sheet, variable cycle engine with optimised electrical generation. Sure, if there are elements of the EJ200 design which cannot be significantly surpassed in an all new design, why re-invent them?

If GCAP needs an engine designed to produce around 30.000 ibs thrust, it would be a great fall back for the TAI KAAN, should Turkey fail to secure a co-developer to help it design, develop and build its own engine. But there would be a big problem with supplying Turkey with the GCAP engine: Turkey would want to offer its 'Muslim fighter' to Muslim countries like... (oh, no!)... Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states.

[Timmymagic]

At a rough guess, something the size of PW F-35, so 40,000lbs or there abouts...

My best but would be a turbojet in the 30,000 lbs class and substantially smaller than F35's lower plant.
It will be influenced by EJ200, but using new technology

EJ200 was based on a 1980's RR design, wasn't it? I would be surprised if the GCAP engine was not a clean sheet, variable cycle engine with optimised electrical generation. Sure, if there are elements of the EJ200 design which cannot be significantly surpassed in an all new design, why re-invent them?

If GCAP needs an engine designed to produce around 30.000 ibs thrust, it would be a great fall back for the TAI KAAN, should Turkey fail to secure a co-developer to help it design, develop and build its own engine. But there would be a big problem with supplying Turkey with the GCAP engine: Turkey would want to offer its 'Muslim fighter' to Muslim countries like... (oh, no!)... Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states.

It was based on the XG-40 design.

As for Turkey, yes we shouldn't help them at the expense of their own industry...but....a lot of the ME nations have long memories, and have no desire to re-start the Ottoman empire...

[SD67]

At a rough guess, something the size of PW F-35, so 40,000lbs or there abouts...

My best but would be a turbojet in the 30,000 lbs class and substantially smaller than F35's lower plant.
It will be influenced by EJ200, but using new technology

EJ200 was based on a 1980's RR design, wasn't it? I would be surprised if the GCAP engine was not a clean sheet, variable cycle engine with optimised electrical generation. Sure, if there are elements of the EJ200 design which cannot be significantly surpassed in an all new design, why re-invent them?

If GCAP needs an engine designed to produce around 30.000 ibs thrust, it would be a great fall back for the TAI KAAN, should Turkey fail to secure a co-developer to help it design, develop and build its own engine. But there would be a big problem with supplying Turkey with the GCAP engine: Turkey would want to offer its 'Muslim fighter' to Muslim countries like... (oh, no!)... Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states.

It was based on the XG-40 design.

As for Turkey, yes we shouldn't help them at the expense of their own industry...but....a lot of the ME nations have long memories, and have no desire to re-start the Ottoman empire...

It's been reported Rolls are already working with Turkey on the TAI engine

https://www.dailysabah.com/business/def ... aft-engine

https://www.timesaerospace.aero/feature ... th-fighter

No idea whether this has anything to do with the Tempest engine, I suspect no.

In terms of Turkey exporting fighters to KSA - well maybe after hades has frozen etc

[ThreeHeadedLion]

If GCAP needs an engine designed to produce around 30.000 ibs thrust, it would be a great fall back for the TAI KAAN, should Turkey fail to secure a co-developer to help it design, develop and build its own engine. But there would be a big problem with supplying Turkey with the GCAP engine: Turkey would want to offer its 'Muslim fighter' to Muslim countries like... (oh, no!)... Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states.

The Arabs (with the exception of qatar) are never going to buy into the turkish project. The only potential buyers will be azerbaijan, qatar and pakistan. And with a collapsing turkish economy these potential buyers will have all the power in the transaction.
So yeah handing the turks a state of the art adaptive cycle engine would be an act of sheer stupidity but I wouldn't put it past the geniuses running the FCO.