Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
Meriv9
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Meriv9 »

The french, in poor words dassault need the germans only for the financial side.

If they start believing (and some of them do) that exports of a 100% french 6th generation fighter can support the cost of developing the fighter they would ditch the Germans not even in seconds, in milliseconds.

After all with all the Rafale sold i bet the profits are pretty sweet.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

For sure the French could go it alone they’ve done it before. They built a nuclear reactor for Saddam Hussain I’m sure they’re able to negotiate Indian defence procurement.
Maybe some unofficial off the record conversations “you know Rafale is also a nuclear delivery platform…”

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Meriv9 »

Ah oh the French are the best in Europe for marketing, obviously they will be able to sell it to anyone.

But sustain alone a 6th generation fighter that isn't a simple RafaleXL?

I don't believe so. It is too much for a single country.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

Agree, it will be a Rafale XL with a stealthy looking body and sexy marketing and they’ll sell boatloads to anyone who doesn’t want to be 100% aligned to the US. Will it be as good as GCAP? No. Will the French care? Doubt it.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Spitfire9 »

This talk about France going alone: didn't the FCAS partners sign an agreement a month or so ago?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Meriv9 »

While still giving 10mln to study "if we go alone" plan.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

SD67 wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 19:42 Agree, it will be a Rafale XL with a stealthy looking body and sexy marketing and they’ll sell boatloads to anyone who doesn’t want to be 100% aligned to the US. Will it be as good as GCAP? No. Will the French care? Doubt it.
Like you said in some ways France would be better off going it alone I'm also positive they will sell shit loads around the world also ,and you say maybe? not as good as GCAP and they wouldn't care but I suspect it will be pretty close to GCAP in reality performance wise ,the french aren't slouches in tech front,but not sure at this point for all the headaches the Germans are France would want to see the German FCAS cash cow go ,and in reality for Germany and Spain the f35a would be totally suitable for their future needs tbh
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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motiv wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 17:31 Would India be allowed the F35?
LM is dangling F35 in front of India and it seems the Indian govt is signaling LM to dangle a bit more.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 023-02-17/


IMO India should have gotten on to the US family of jets in mid 00's. By this time they could be flying hundreds of F16s and a good number of F35s but they are still flying the Mig21 and Jaguars. Totally crazy.

motiv wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 17:31 Wouldn't the TF-X be a better solution for them?
Turkey wont sell to them. They have hostile relations.

motiv wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 17:31 I presume GCAP would also have "export" versions, which are a little less state of the heart. I can't imagine India is particularly secure if you need to keep your radar absorbing features safe.
Wont work if France goes ahead and offers all the bells and whistles though.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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inch wrote: 24 Mar 2023, 17:23 I suspect it will be pretty close to GCAP in reality performance wise ..
Depends on what performance you are talking about. Aerodynamic, maybe yes. Stealth, sensor, sensor fusion, network enabling, definitely no.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

Ron5 wrote: 02 Apr 2023, 14:15
inch wrote: 24 Mar 2023, 17:23 I suspect it will be pretty close to GCAP in reality performance wise ..
Depends on what performance you are talking about. Aerodynamic, maybe yes. Stealth, sensor, sensor fusion, network enabling, definitely no.
Would have thought sensor,sensor fusion, network enabling,etc etc ,even stealth to some extent?be v similar tbh only on the grounds french/ Germans not slouches as I said before,but also reading somewhere in articles that they want to spend,or should I say probably going to spend 100billion dollars on developing products and programs for FCAS ,and GCAP have stated they going to spend 10s of billions,so can't make out if FCAS is going to be a more advanced tech more money program than GCAP by just the amounts they said going to throw at their respective programs?,that's why said FCAS would probably be as advanced as GCAP and french are no slouches ,the only thing that I could see the FCAS program costing 10s of billions more than GCAP is maybe because they want to make it carrier capable? But would have thought the sensors fusion/ radar etc etc be every bit as good as GCAP Ron5 ,?let me know why you have doubts fella on sensors, systems, stealth etc , 👍

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by mrclark303 »

inch wrote: 02 Apr 2023, 15:24
Ron5 wrote: 02 Apr 2023, 14:15
inch wrote: 24 Mar 2023, 17:23 I suspect it will be pretty close to GCAP in reality performance wise ..
Depends on what performance you are talking about. Aerodynamic, maybe yes. Stealth, sensor, sensor fusion, network enabling, definitely no.
Would have thought sensor,sensor fusion, network enabling,etc etc ,even stealth to some extent?be v similar tbh only on the grounds french/ Germans not slouches as I said before,but also reading somewhere in articles that they want to spend,or should I say probably going to spend 100billion dollars on developing products and programs for FCAS ,and GCAP have stated they going to spend 10s of billions,so can't make out if FCAS is going to be a more advanced tech more money program than GCAP by just the amounts they said going to throw at their respective programs?,that's why said FCAS would probably be as advanced as GCAP and french are no slouches ,the only thing that I could see the FCAS program costing 10s of billions more than GCAP is maybe because they want to make it carrier capable? But would have thought the sensors fusion/ radar etc etc be every bit as good as GCAP Ron5 ,?let me know why you have doubts fella on sensors, systems, stealth etc , 👍
I don't think it will be as as capable as Tempest ( GCAP is a terrible name), the Germans will do their usual and constantly restrain capability to keep costs down.

It's looking like initial production will be of limited numbers, that likely means an eye watering unit price.

The French want Carrier capability, that certainly limits size, potentially makes the design heavier and 'less than optimal' for solely Airforce needs, as it's required to generate sufficient lift and controllability at low speed for a carrier landing.

That mean flying surfaces, fuselage shape and placement are tailored 'primarily' for the Carrier mission, utterly ridiculous for the 60 or so that the French Navy will have!

It's the tail wagging the dog.....

It could fall into the F35 rabbit hole if it isn't extremely carefully designed and they decide on two versions, that will cause delay and further inflate the prices.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SW1 »

The F4 phantom did alright and Germany used them until 2013.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SW1 wrote: 02 Apr 2023, 22:04 The F4 phantom did alright and Germany used them until 2013.
The F4E the Germans used is a great example of their cost cutting, even at the height of the Cold War.

The Germans went for a cut price F4E, reducing the specifications dramatically.

It was the Germans who were responsible for the Tornado being so small, the delays in Typhoon (they came close to collapsing the entire programme in the early 90's) and to this day, Luftwaffe Typhoons have a lower standard of equipment.

All marvelous reasons not to go anywhere near the Germans with regards to combat aircraft!

Add French intransigence and general pig headiness to it, I still have my doubts the Franco German Spanish effort will ever fly.

I suspect the Spanish will jump ship and go F35A.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SW1 »

mrclark303 wrote: 03 Apr 2023, 08:38
SW1 wrote: 02 Apr 2023, 22:04 The F4 phantom did alright and Germany used them until 2013.
The F4E the Germans used is a great example of their cost cutting, even at the height of the Cold War.

The Germans went for a cut price F4E, reducing the specifications dramatically.

It was the Germans who were responsible for the Tornado being so small, the delays in Typhoon (they came close to collapsing the entire programme in the early 90's) and to this day, Luftwaffe Typhoons have a lower standard of equipment.

All marvelous reasons not to go anywhere near the Germans with regards to combat aircraft!

Add French intransigence and general pig headiness to it, I still have my doubts the Franco German Spanish effort will ever fly.

I suspect the Spanish will jump ship and go F35A.
Still a “carrier” design they were happy to use as it was else were as well.

Being able to add or remove sensor systems to suit your budget is a sensible option in the design.

Tornado was not small.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Ron5 »

inch wrote: 02 Apr 2023, 15:24
Ron5 wrote: 02 Apr 2023, 14:15
inch wrote: 24 Mar 2023, 17:23 I suspect it will be pretty close to GCAP in reality performance wise ..
Depends on what performance you are talking about. Aerodynamic, maybe yes. Stealth, sensor, sensor fusion, network enabling, definitely no.
Would have thought sensor,sensor fusion, network enabling,etc etc ,even stealth to some extent?be v similar tbh only on the grounds french/ Germans not slouches as I said before,but also reading somewhere in articles that they want to spend,or should I say probably going to spend 100billion dollars on developing products and programs for FCAS ,and GCAP have stated they going to spend 10s of billions,so can't make out if FCAS is going to be a more advanced tech more money program than GCAP by just the amounts they said going to throw at their respective programs?,that's why said FCAS would probably be as advanced as GCAP and french are no slouches ,the only thing that I could see the FCAS program costing 10s of billions more than GCAP is maybe because they want to make it carrier capable? But would have thought the sensors fusion/ radar etc etc be every bit as good as GCAP Ron5 ,?let me know why you have doubts fella on sensors, systems, stealth etc , 👍
Everybody is as good as everybody else, right?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

I'd say the french / Germans can produce tech every bit as good as British/ Italian companies I'd have thought,heck alot of the euro companies are intermingled with subsidiaries in each others countries,thinking french Thales in UK ,or Italian Leonardo in UK etc ,you get my drift ,so I'd say on systems/ sensors Def as good as each other, just how much the country wants to throw at it ,and how long they been developing/ testing,but the brains on both program sides will be as good I'm guessing, stealth I'm not so sure , don't know how much the french Germans have been developing behind the scenes,the UK / Italians soon to be Japan all be operating F35 and making some parts,so quessin they have quite a bit of info ,but french done NERO UAV so must also have some info ,hard to say on that without being in the know,but to answer you if don't spend cash and on research country won't be as good,if do I'd say fair chance french / German/ Spanish will be as UK/ Japan/ Italy ,that's about the best answer I can give you on that one

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SW1 wrote: 03 Apr 2023, 09:30
mrclark303 wrote: 03 Apr 2023, 08:38
SW1 wrote: 02 Apr 2023, 22:04 The F4 phantom did alright and Germany used them until 2013.
The F4E the Germans used is a great example of their cost cutting, even at the height of the Cold War.

The Germans went for a cut price F4E, reducing the specifications dramatically.

It was the Germans who were responsible for the Tornado being so small, the delays in Typhoon (they came close to collapsing the entire programme in the early 90's) and to this day, Luftwaffe Typhoons have a lower standard of equipment.

All marvelous reasons not to go anywhere near the Germans with regards to combat aircraft!

Add French intransigence and general pig headiness to it, I still have my doubts the Franco German Spanish effort will ever fly.

I suspect the Spanish will jump ship and go F35A.
Still a “carrier” design they were happy to use as it was else were as well.

Being able to add or remove sensor systems to suit your budget is a sensible option in the design.

Tornado was not small.
Where they??
You are looking at this in a very black and white way, at the height of the Cold War, West Germany was utterly reliant on the Americans, so when the F104G needed to go, there really wasn't another available option.

They went for the cut price F4E with no Sparrow capability.

The Tornado IDS was absolutely to small, at German instance too, at the expense of capability, again to cut costs.

The Tornado was envisioned as a multirole combat aircraft, like the Phantom and the still borne AFVGA aircraft that came before it.

German intransigence basically forced the strike role in a small airframe and killed the swing role Air defence capability.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Spitfire9 »

It can be useful to keep an eye on how plans for other 'western' projects are progressing:

KAI KF-21

- several prototypes flying

- weapons integration has started (Iris-T, Meteor)

TAI MMU (TF-X)

- rolled out March 2023

- maiden flight targeted for end 2023

HAL AMCA

- not yet given go ahead for development by Indian government

- Indian press reports that plans to power it with a 110kN+ engine have been shelved/dropped
It is understood that the government has asked the DRDO to stick to project timelines and avoid delays in the name of first time development. While the India-US talks are going on for 100 per cent transfer of technology production of GE-414 engines in India, the DRDO has decided to power both the Mark II and AMCA with the same engine.
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 36904.html[/quote]

The effect of opting for the 98kN GE F414 to power the AMCA is that it will have insufficient power to supercruise and it looks like it will perhaps lack the electrical power required for modern systems. If the newspaper report is accurate, the AMCA project may not get the go ahead due to Indian Air Force refusing to accept an aircraft falling short of requirements. The Tempest partners would do well to court India's interest in their project. If they don't, I think FCAS will end up being India's choice for a 6G fighter.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Spitfire9 wrote: 08 Apr 2023, 18:59 It can be useful to keep an eye on how plans for other 'western' projects are progressing:

KAI KF-21

- several prototypes flying

- weapons integration has started (Iris-T, Meteor)

TAI MMU (TF-X)

- rolled out March 2023

- maiden flight targeted for end 2023

HAL AMCA

- not yet given go ahead for development by Indian government

- Indian press reports that plans to power it with a 110kN+ engine have been shelved/dropped
It is understood that the government has asked the DRDO to stick to project timelines and avoid delays in the name of first time development. While the India-US talks are going on for 100 per cent transfer of technology production of GE-414 engines in India, the DRDO has decided to power both the Mark II and AMCA with the same engine.
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 36904.html
The effect of opting for the 98kN GE F414 to power the AMCA is that it will have insufficient power to supercruise and it looks like it will perhaps lack the electrical power required for modern systems. If the newspaper report is accurate, the AMCA project may not get the go ahead due to Indian Air Force refusing to accept an aircraft falling short of requirements. The Tempest partners would do well to court India's interest in their project. If they don't, I think FCAS will end up being India's choice for a 6G fighter.
[/quote]

Oh god no, you might as well invite the Russians to join the programme!

The Russians would have technicians crawling all over the first aircraft to arrive and would have test flown it inside a week.... Bet your bottom dollar they have already test flown and looked at Indian Rafals in depth.

No way, not to be trusted at all....
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Spitfire9 »

mrclark303 wrote: 08 Apr 2023, 19:14
The effect of opting for the 98kN GE F414 to power the AMCA is that it will have insufficient power to supercruise and it looks like it will perhaps lack the electrical power required for modern systems. If the newspaper report is accurate, the AMCA project may not get the go ahead due to Indian Air Force refusing to accept an aircraft falling short of requirements. The Tempest partners would do well to court India's interest in their project. If they don't, I think FCAS will end up being India's choice for a 6G fighter.
Oh god no, you might as well invite the Russians to join the programme!

The Russians would have technicians crawling all over the first aircraft to arrive and would have test flown it inside a week.... Bet your bottom dollar they have already test flown and looked at Indian Rafals in depth.

No way, not to be trusted at all....
Did you disapprove of US, Sweden, UK and France offering fighters to India for its MMRCA competition 15 years ago? I don't see how the UK will maintain a fighter development capability if it rules customers out as easily as you do. Sure, there won't be a security risk to UK industry when we don't have one any more because we have such high dev costs and such limited production runs that our offerings are too expensive to be commercially successful!

PS India is the world's largest importer of arms. And you don't want us to benefit!!!
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Spitfire9 wrote: 08 Apr 2023, 19:54
mrclark303 wrote: 08 Apr 2023, 19:14
The effect of opting for the 98kN GE F414 to power the AMCA is that it will have insufficient power to supercruise and it looks like it will perhaps lack the electrical power required for modern systems. If the newspaper report is accurate, the AMCA project may not get the go ahead due to Indian Air Force refusing to accept an aircraft falling short of requirements. The Tempest partners would do well to court India's interest in their project. If they don't, I think FCAS will end up being India's choice for a 6G fighter.
Oh god no, you might as well invite the Russians to join the programme!

The Russians would have technicians crawling all over the first aircraft to arrive and would have test flown it inside a week.... Bet your bottom dollar they have already test flown and looked at Indian Rafals in depth.

No way, not to be trusted at all....
Did you disapprove of US, Sweden, UK and France offering fighters to India for its MMRCA competition 15 years ago? I don't see how the UK will maintain a fighter development capability if it rules customers out as easily as you do. Sure, there won't be a security risk to UK industry when we don't have one any more because we have such high dev costs and such limited production runs that our offerings are too expensive to be commercially successful!

PS India is the world's largest importer of arms. And you don't want us to benefit!!!
Well, 15 years ago the Indians didn't look the other way
with their fingers in their ears, while Russian Orks butchered and raped their way across Ukraine and enjoyed cheap oil and gas as a direct result.

Lovely cheap Gas and oil the colour of blood...

That alone shows where Indian loyalties are firmly planted.

They are clearly not allied to the West, their government lacks any sort of moral compass and they are not to be trusted.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Spitfire9 »

mrclark303 wrote: 09 Apr 2023, 13:44
Spitfire9 wrote: 08 Apr 2023, 19:54
Did you disapprove of US, Sweden, UK and France offering fighters to India for its MMRCA competition 15 years ago? I don't see how the UK will maintain a fighter development capability if it rules customers out as easily as you do. Sure, there won't be a security risk to UK industry when we don't have one any more because we have such high dev costs and such limited production runs that our offerings are too expensive to be commercially successful!

PS India is the world's largest importer of arms. And you don't want us to benefit!!!
Well, 15 years ago the Indians didn't look the other way
with their fingers in their ears, while Russian Orks butchered and raped their way across Ukraine and enjoyed cheap oil and gas as a direct result.

Lovely cheap Gas and oil the colour of blood...

That alone shows where Indian loyalties are firmly planted.

They are clearly not allied to the West, their government lacks any sort of moral compass and they are not to be trusted.
Personally I would prefer it if the UK and other democracies refused to supply countries guilty of butchery inside or outside their territory. Russia, Syria, KSA et al would be examples. While I agree that India, China and other countries have not condemned the clearly condemnable Russian invasion of Ukraine and should have done so, they are not throwing weapons at Russia to aid and abet their criminal behaviour. In contrast UK is throwing weapons at KSA to aid and abet their criminal behaviour in Yemen. Do you think the world should condemn the UK? I do. Should more Typhoons be supplied to KSA? Like Germany, I think not.

Regarding how India cannot be trusted with advanced western weaponry, I note that US sent F-35 to the recent Indian defence show. It is reported that India and US are in discussions regarding the supply of F-35. Perhaps US will agree to supply, perhaps not. It seems also that BAE Systems remains interested in supplying Tempest to India and RR remains interested in developing a new fast jet engine for India.


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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

Point with KSA is they already fly Typhoons supplied and maintained by us so if Typhoon for KSA is a no no well we’re long past that point.

Countries buy expensive weapons systems in the expectation that they’ll be able to use them.- if you start putting conditions on arms sales then you’re out of the business pretty quickly

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Spitfire9 »

SD67 wrote: 09 Apr 2023, 16:10 Point with KSA is they already fly Typhoons supplied and maintained by us so if Typhoon for KSA is a no no well we’re long past that point.

Countries buy expensive weapons systems in the expectation that they’ll be able to use them.- if you start putting conditions on arms sales then you’re out of the business pretty quickly
Yes, we supplied Typhoons to KSA. We supplied weapons, too. From what I read last year(?) we were supplying more weapons to drop on the Yemenis.
Based on the data Yemen Data Project has collected, the airstrikes have killed at least 8,983 civilians and injured 10,243. Beyond the direct civilian casualties, the coalition has also attacked significant civilian infrastructure across the country, including hospitals, schools, bridges, dams, farms, irrigation works, and more – all of which are violations of the laws of war.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/01/31/uk- ... in%20Yemen.

This reminds me of what Russia has been doing to the Ukrainians. We (UK) are facilitating the killing of civilians by KSA. My view is that what Russia is doing is evil and what we are doing is evil. Based on that, I hope we do not sell Tempest to states like KSA. India seems preferable to KSA to me.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by TheLoneRanger »

Spitfire9 wrote: 09 Apr 2023, 15:54
Regarding how India cannot be trusted with advanced western weaponry, I note that US sent F-35 to the recent Indian defence show. It is reported that India and US are in discussions regarding the supply of F-35. Perhaps US will agree to supply, perhaps not. It seems also that BAE Systems remains interested in supplying Tempest to India and RR remains interested in developing a new fast jet engine for India.

Given how the Americans are desperate to stop the rise of China - no matter the cost - there is a lack of common sense in the USA with regards to their India strategy. The Americans are creating a problem in India that will also need to be dealt with eventually as well. Maybe they have factored that in already - who knows.

Indian's are doing what they need to do for their sole interest and are harvesting alot of technology for free while the west "work out where" India's true loyalities lie ... it will be an expensive mistake for us in the west.

And - lets not forget the rise of hindu fanaticism that will create its own set of problems for us.

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