Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
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mrclark303
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by mrclark303 »

Spitfire9 wrote: 09 Apr 2023, 15:54
mrclark303 wrote: 09 Apr 2023, 13:44
Spitfire9 wrote: 08 Apr 2023, 19:54
Did you disapprove of US, Sweden, UK and France offering fighters to India for its MMRCA competition 15 years ago? I don't see how the UK will maintain a fighter development capability if it rules customers out as easily as you do. Sure, there won't be a security risk to UK industry when we don't have one any more because we have such high dev costs and such limited production runs that our offerings are too expensive to be commercially successful!

PS India is the world's largest importer of arms. And you don't want us to benefit!!!
Well, 15 years ago the Indians didn't look the other way
with their fingers in their ears, while Russian Orks butchered and raped their way across Ukraine and enjoyed cheap oil and gas as a direct result.

Lovely cheap Gas and oil the colour of blood...

That alone shows where Indian loyalties are firmly planted.

They are clearly not allied to the West, their government lacks any sort of moral compass and they are not to be trusted.
Personally I would prefer it if the UK and other democracies refused to supply countries guilty of butchery inside or outside their territory. Russia, Syria, KSA et al would be examples. While I agree that India, China and other countries have not condemned the clearly condemnable Russian invasion of Ukraine and should have done so, they are not throwing weapons at Russia to aid and abet their criminal behaviour. In contrast UK is throwing weapons at KSA to aid and abet their criminal behaviour in Yemen. Do you think the world should condemn the UK? I do. Should more Typhoons be supplied to KSA? Like Germany, I think not.

Regarding how India cannot be trusted with advanced western weaponry, I note that US sent F-35 to the recent Indian defence show. It is reported that India and US are in discussions regarding the supply of F-35. Perhaps US will agree to supply, perhaps not. It seems also that BAE Systems remains interested in supplying Tempest to India and RR remains interested in developing a new fast jet engine for India.

I agree with you that Saudi Arabia is a repulsive authoritarian regime, guilty of extremely questionable behaviour, but they always have been and we have been selling them aircraft since the 1960's.

That said, my enemies, enemy is my friend, they are fighting a proxy war against Iran.

Now Iran and Russia have moved to be close allies, that Proxy war effectively forms part of the new cold war, that means, (like it or not), we have to back Saudi Arabia....

I would say Saudi Arabia wouldn't sell military secrets to the Russians, the Indian government would sell their own grandmother to the highest bidder!

Pakistan is little better, there's a good reason the Chinese F17 and F20 have more than a few F16 influences, it was widely suspected that Pakistan let the Chinese ' borrow ' one of their F16's and it was extensively tested and studied at Chengdu.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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mrclark303 wrote: 10 Apr 2023, 12:08 my enemies, enemy is my friend, they are fighting a proxy war against Iran.
I prefer the version that goes:
The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy; no more, no less.
Iraq was fighting directly against Iran.

On the other hand, we have more leverage on the side we are providing support to.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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The world is changing:

2000 India GDP per capita ~$500
2020 India GDP per capita ~$2000
Source: World Bank

India GDP predicted average annual growth rate to 2030 >6%
Source: S&P

India’s GDP is likely to more than double from current levels by 2031.
Source: Morgan Stanley

It is on the cards that 10 years from now India will have the third largest economy in the world after US and China. It is fanciful to think that India is concerned with choosing to be a lackey of either US or Russia.

Given Indian and US antipathy towards China, a closer relationship between the two countries makes sense.

Fortunately for US and European military aviation industries, India's model for developing its own aviation industry has proved woefully inadequate yet the Indian government looks unlikely to change that model in the near future. The Indian Air Force needs hundreds of new fighters in the next 10 years to replace MiG-21, Jaguar, MiG-29, Mirage 2000 fighters and to start recovering from India's current shortfall of around a dozen fighter squadrons. It is unlikely that India's industry will succeed in delivering any fighters before 2030 excepting the 73 Tejas Mk1A very light fighters ordered in 2021. Perhaps +50 Mk1A as an emergency measure towards mitigating the failure of other indigenous programmes to deliver.

Later in the 2030's India's fleet of 250+ Su-30 will start being retired. It is not impossible that AMCA will go into production around 2035 with deliveries to IAF from 2038 onwards but it would be very risky for IAF to depend on that. More sensible and to mitigate risk would be to buy some F-35's for delivery later this decade/early 2030's or order some FCAS or Tempest.

Those directing GCAP would frankly be mad to ignore India as a customer/token development partner. Why hand 100-250 orders to LM or FCAS when GCAP might get them? I don't accept that Russians will be allowed to crawl all over F-35, FCAS or Tempest if supplied. That would be madness on India's part, wouldn't it?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Spitfire9 wrote: 10 Apr 2023, 14:24 The world is changing:

2000 India GDP per capita ~$500
2020 India GDP per capita ~$2000
Source: World Bank

India GDP predicted average annual growth rate to 2030 >6%
Source: S&P

India’s GDP is likely to more than double from current levels by 2031.
Source: Morgan Stanley



Those directing GCAP would frankly be mad to ignore India as a customer/token development partner. Why hand 100-250 orders to LM or FCAS when GCAP might get them? I don't accept that Russians will be allowed to crawl all over F-35, FCAS or Tempest if supplied. That would be madness on India's part, wouldn't it?
I agree. India are going to need an SU30 replacement, nothing of their own will be online by then, why gift that massive market to FCAS?

One thing we are sure of is they are no friend of China given decades of border squabbles and China's support of Pakistan

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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The US refused Turkey’s purchase of F35 and kicked them out of the program due to its purchase of s400 systems from Russia. As India is a purchaser and operator of said system it isn’t selling f35 to them.

Aircraft and there power plants are the hardest thing to develop or attempt to copy. Sharing such tech will be restricted to those we trust the most.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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https://www.firstpost.com/world/big-ste ... 22472.html

"In a major boost for the Atmanirbhar Bharat initiative of the Indian government, Rolls-Royce has confirmed an export license from the UK government for combat engine technology transfer to India."

The source may not be super reliable

https://theprint.in/defence/air-india-o ... e/1405637/

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SD67 wrote: 10 Apr 2023, 16:13 https://www.firstpost.com/world/big-ste ... 22472.html

"In a major boost for the Atmanirbhar Bharat initiative of the Indian government, Rolls-Royce has confirmed an export license from the UK government for combat engine technology transfer to India."

The source may not be super reliable

https://theprint.in/defence/air-india-o ... e/1405637/
3 questions:

Has India decided to bite the bullet and spend $5-$10 billion to buy itself the know how to make fast jet engines?
India is reported to have spent <$500 million over the ~20 year life of the abortive indigenous Kaveri programme. Now the government has decided to spend 10/15/20 times as much on another new engine? If so, great news.

What technology has received an export licence?
This could be 4G as per the Eurojet EJ200 Typhoon engine. If so, great news for RR but not so for much so for India's ability to develop an engine suitable for the 5G AMCA project or future advanced fighter projects.

What contribution can India make to development and testing in India?
India has no high altitude test chamber; India has limited wind tunnel infrastructure; India has no flying test bed.

It will be interesting to see what RR proposes (if it is made public).

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Spitfire9 wrote: 10 Apr 2023, 17:51
SD67 wrote: 10 Apr 2023, 16:13 https://www.firstpost.com/world/big-ste ... 22472.html

"In a major boost for the Atmanirbhar Bharat initiative of the Indian government, Rolls-Royce has confirmed an export license from the UK government for combat engine technology transfer to India."

The source may not be super reliable

https://theprint.in/defence/air-india-o ... e/1405637/
3 questions:

Has India decided to bite the bullet and spend $5-$10 billion to buy itself the know how to make fast jet engines?
India is reported to have spent <$500 million over the ~20 year life of the abortive indigenous Kaveri programme. Now the government has decided to spend 10/15/20 times as much on another new engine? If so, great news.

What technology has received an export licence?
This could be 4G as per the Eurojet EJ200 Typhoon engine. If so, great news for RR but not so for much so for India's ability to develop an engine suitable for the 5G AMCA project or future advanced fighter projects.

What contribution can India make to development and testing in India?
India has no high altitude test chamber; India has limited wind tunnel infrastructure; India has no flying test bed.

It will be interesting to see what RR proposes (if it is made public).
Any engine will be (at best) assembled in country, they simply aren't capable of anything more engine wise.

China, with its extensive military research and development complex, really struggle with advanced propulsion, it's the most complex area by far of modern aviation.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Some Indians seem to believe they will be able to have an indigenous engine for the AMCA. It took China some 20-25 years to catch up to Russian power plants in terms of performance. Just look at WS-10, in the early 2000's it was a terrible engine both in terms of performance and reliability. Only now in the 2020's the WS-10C and the soon-to-be WS-15 are on par even if they are behind the Western world by 10-15 years. If It took China this long, how will India get there in 15 years with less investment. Honestly, I would be very surprised if the AMCA will fly before 2035 considering how delayed Tejas has been.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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zavve wrote: 11 Apr 2023, 12:36 Some Indians seem to believe they will be able to have an indigenous engine for the AMCA. It took China some 20-25 years to catch up to Russian power plants in terms of performance. Just look at WS-10, in the early 2000's it was a terrible engine both in terms of performance and reliability. Only now in the 2020's the WS-10C and the soon-to-be WS-15 are on par even if they are behind the Western world by 10-15 years. If It took China this long, how will India get there in 15 years with less investment. Honestly, I would be very surprised if the AMCA will fly before 2035 considering how delayed Tejas has been.
We need to be careful when we say China has caught up with the west. We can at face value accept the achieved thrust ratings of the WS-10/15 series. However we dont know if the engine spool up times are comparable with western jet engines, or fuel rate, max service life, MTBO timings and a whole host of other metrics that we define as being at par.

They may well be still behind russian engine technology in all areas except for engine thrust ?? Chinese are not publishing any information which leads me to think they are not very impressive(engine spool time is a military secret of course .. ).

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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zavve wrote: 11 Apr 2023, 12:36 Some Indians seem to believe they will be able to have an indigenous engine for the AMCA. It took China some 20-25 years to catch up to Russian power plants in terms of performance. Just look at WS-10, in the early 2000's it was a terrible engine both in terms of performance and reliability. Only now in the 2020's the WS-10C and the soon-to-be WS-15 are on par even if they are behind the Western world by 10-15 years. If It took China this long, how will India get there in 15 years with less investment. Honestly, I would be very surprised if the AMCA will fly before 2035 considering how delayed Tejas has been.
AMCA is a bit of a pipe dream. To meet performance requirements it needs a 110kN engine. Indian industry cannot design such an engine. Any engine co-developed with a foreign OEM able to make reliable state-of-the-art engines (P&W, GE, RR, SAFRAN) would have nominal Indian input since India is decades away from having the knowhow to offer much useful input to the development process. In effect, I think that a co-developed engine would be almost entirely developed by the foreign OEM concerned. The idea that the OEM would transfer the technology concerned to India whereby India could subsequently design and build state-of-the-art engines itself is an Indian fantasy in my opinion.

I still think it is a good idea for GCAP to reach out to India to have some involvement in GCAP (nominal, of course) to make it easier to jump horses to Tempest and cancel AMCA if that project goes seriously awry.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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You could say the same about Australia and SSNs. (or the UK car industry before Tata sunk 10 billion into it.....)

India may be a flawed democracy but it IS a democracy, they're not invading anyone and they're China's number 1 long term competitor in Asia. Frankly I think we should give them everything they ask for, even if it's just to keep the bad guys out.

They'll likely start out with glorified local assembly then there will be a long process of indigenisation. Bear in mind Air India has just signed for, including options, 100 Rolls civil engines, it's all connected IMHO

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Rolls Royce india has been in existence for some time, they have Engineering centre in Bengaluru that supported work on ultra fan for example.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SD67 wrote: 11 Apr 2023, 16:40 India may be a flawed democracy but it IS a democracy, they're not invading anyone and they're China's number 1 long term competitor in Asia. Frankly I think we should give them everything they ask for, even if it's just to keep the bad guys out.
I think that RR spends $1,000 million or so each year on R&D. Only some of that on fast jet engines, sure. IIRC India spent <$400 million in total over the >20 year life span of its Kaveri project. If the government of India was seriously committed to developing a fast jet engine capability I think it would have committed a lot more than $15 million or $20 million a year to the cause. As a result India has developed little expertise in designing and developing a fast jet engine. I don't see why RR would hand knowhow acquired at great cost to a country that declined to invest in acquiring that knowhow itself.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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This post is about Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest), we are way off topic, discussing India, which is unlikely to get involved.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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TheLoneRanger wrote: 11 Apr 2023, 13:00
zavve wrote: 11 Apr 2023, 12:36 Some Indians seem to believe they will be able to have an indigenous engine for the AMCA. It took China some 20-25 years to catch up to Russian power plants in terms of performance. Just look at WS-10, in the early 2000's it was a terrible engine both in terms of performance and reliability. Only now in the 2020's the WS-10C and the soon-to-be WS-15 are on par even if they are behind the Western world by 10-15 years. If It took China this long, how will India get there in 15 years with less investment. Honestly, I would be very surprised if the AMCA will fly before 2035 considering how delayed Tejas has been.
We need to be careful when we say China has caught up with the west. We can at face value accept the achieved thrust ratings of the WS-10/15 series. However we dont know if the engine spool up times are comparable with western jet engines, or fuel rate, max service life, MTBO timings and a whole host of other metrics that we define as being at par.

They may well be still behind russian engine technology in all areas except for engine thrust ?? Chinese are not publishing any information which leads me to think they are not very impressive(engine spool time is a military secret of course .. ).
Absolutely.... The Chinese are still way behind, possibly on a par with the Russians now, but decades behind the west in propulsion technology.

Advanced propulsion is still an area the UK still has a dog in the fight....

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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New BAE Images

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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From Flight:
UK allocates over £650m for next stage of Tempest development

The UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) has awarded £654 million ($818 million) to four firms to advance the development of the Tempest future fighter being developed through the trilateral Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP).

Under a contract awarded to project lead BAE Systems, the funding will also be received by the UK arms of Leonardo and MBDA, plus propulsion specialist Rolls-Royce.

The UK has been developing a sixth-generation Tempest fighter to enter operational use in 2035

The MoD says the move will enable the companies “to progress the design and development of this aircraft.”

Working together with GCAP partners Italy and Japan, the project “will now progress the maturity of more than 60 cutting-edge technology demonstrations, digital concepts and new technologies,” the ministry adds. Service entry for Tempest is planned for 2035.

“The next tranche of funding for future combat air will help fuse the combined technologies and expertise we have with our international partners – both in Europe and the Pacific — to deliver this world-leading fighter jet by 2035, protecting our skies for decades to come,” says Defence Secretary Ben Wallace.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Timmymagic wrote: 14 Apr 2023, 12:19 New BAE Images

Now that I like ... Looking very purposeful and large too.

It's exactly what the Japanese and the UK need.

This is what happen when you keep the 'shrink it down' Germans out of the project...
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Some wag on twitter a while back said

"British, Swedish, Italian and Japanese - if only Tempest were a woman"
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

If I can make a observation,it does kind of looking very much like the French FCAS ,or is that just me ? Also the latest American 6th and Chinese 6th gen renderings are showing a aircraft without tails, should/ could we be doing the same ,no expert just asking the question,?merits in the different design I suppose,and cost development I quess ,thanks

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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inch wrote: 14 Apr 2023, 20:49 If I can make a observation,it does kind of looking very much like the French FCAS ,or is that just me ? Also the latest American 6th and Chinese 6th gen renderings are showing a aircraft without tails, should/ could we be doing the same ,no expert just asking the question,?merits in the different design I suppose,and cost development I quess ,thanks
The vertical tail on an aircraft provide stability in yaw, helping in damping the lateral modes of motion of the aircraft, in engine out failure scenarios, cross winds ect . If you intend the aircraft to operate in high speed regimes the vertical tail needs to be larger than on a subsonic aircraft to achieve the same effect.

You can design other forms of control surface into the aircraft to achieve a similar effect as a vertical tail but they can be more complex and not as effective across the whole flight envelope. The removal of a vertical tail is advantageous if your primary concern is radar low observability as the optimal profile for that is saucer shaped around the whole azimuth of the a/c.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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inch wrote: 14 Apr 2023, 20:49 If I can make a observation,it does kind of looking very much like the French FCAS ,or is that just me ? Also the latest American 6th and Chinese 6th gen renderings are showing a aircraft without tails, should/ could we be doing the same ,no expert just asking the question,?merits in the different design I suppose,and cost development I quess ,thanks
One obvious difference is the scale, Tempest is substantially larger than FCAS, certainly going by the current rendering anyway.

I suspect FCAS will be slightly bigger than F35. Aircraft carrier capability will dictate it's final design, from its maximum weight ( dictating size) to its control surfaces, to address the necessary manuvering abilities at slow approach speeds.

The aircraft's weight will be higher than a comparably sized 'Airforce' based machine, due to the necessary structural beefing up.

It occurs to me that hobbling an entire design and build of 100's, for an off cute that will probably only boil down to 60 odd Carrier capable machines, makes little sense.

It's typical of French intransigence unfortunately.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Or it may be that the French don’t really want or need an F22 class platform. They’re not a frontline air defence state, they’re not an island (or quasi Island like Italy ). Mirage 2000 wasn’t an F15 class platform. Mirage 3 was alot smaller than an F4.

IMHO the programs are looking nicely complementary.

One question tho - can SNECMA develop a 6th gen engine from a standing start? It’d be funny if in 5 years time they come knocking on RRs door for technical assistance
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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I really now sure how people are judging size and scale from the public rendering shown so far or what they mean by big!

The tornado f3 had roughly the same wingspan and length as a f22, f22 has a heavier MTOW but tornado is commented on as small and f22 is big.

Like wise f35 is classed as small but has up to 70k lbs MTOW which pretty much f14 tomcat/f18 e weight which was a big aircraft but in a smaller overall physical aircraft size.

Mirage 2000 was comparable to the f16 not the twin engine f15.

So it will interesting to know what length, span and weight people are basing there judgements on small and big on. Modern materials will lower structural weight and allow increased max weight for a given size compared to older aircraft.

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