Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Timmymagic »

Jensy wrote: 18 Jul 2022, 17:30 Wouldn't be the first time!
I do wonder what they do with all the mockups. Wonder if the ACA mockup is getting dusty in a corner of Warton...Replica obviously survived and got reused.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by matt00773 »

Some more detail on Japan's rationale for shifting to the UK for the next gen fighter:

"The US was expected to also participate in Japan’s next-gen fighter program. According to the sources, Lockheed had proposed using an F-22 Raptor airframe and F-35 components for the F-X in 2018.

However, that tentative partnership ended this year because Washington could dictate when and how Japan maintained and upgraded its aircraft owing to US control over sensitive tech."


https://eurasiantimes.com/uk-japan-to-p ... -warplane/
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

A great move for UK and Japan , hopefully will get a world leading fighter second only to American future 6th gen offering and on par with future French ( maybe German) future plane ,cos I'm sure France will produce something good as well ,but as long as keeps the edge over China and poss Russia in future that will do ,or at least keeps them honest
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

As an aside I wonder which other countries might seriously be thinking might want to jump onboard in future , possiblity maybe Sweden having an actual aircraft that eventually arrises, thinking outside the box,if could make it a long range fighter like f111 maybe Australia might be tempted in future years ?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by motiv »

Sweden technically are already onboard and a joint member. At the moment it looks like they are in for educational purposes, possibly bringing in some form of agile production tech that they have used for their own plane and a demonstrator with the yanks.

By the sounds of things now, the next stage is fully funded for the demonstrator. So the seats of who can come onboard to take work has shrunk.

It may be if you come on board now, you get to be a global servicing hub, rather than making them.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

If technically possible I’d like to see Sweden update Gripen with one Tempest engine plus some Tempest electronics, thereby freeing themselves from ITAR. Could be a good competitor at the lighter end of the market
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

Just thinking with tempest demonstrate aircraft by 2027 and news of Japan/ UK tie up , with Italy and Sweden assessing program aswell ,are the French/Germans going to be announcing very soon to the press that they have sorted there differences and a flying demonstrator will be flying in same sort of time frame ,or sooner ,ie they want to be seen as lagging behind to the world press and there possible future partners/ sales

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

I think Dassault CEO Trappier recently said that FCAS has already missed 2040, and with Rafale cleaning up in the export market I suspect the foot has gone off the gas
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by motiv »

SD67 wrote: 19 Jul 2022, 14:35 I think Dassault CEO Trappier recently said that FCAS has already missed 2040, and with Rafale cleaning up in the export market I suspect the foot has gone off the gas
I wouldn't put too much into what is said about timeframes. Throw enough money at something, and suddenly it is possible.

I read today the EU is looking into subsidising equipment bought by 3+ EU states from EU defence contractors.

So basically Spain, France and Germany would get a 10% subsidy for buying their own FCAS, subsidised by every other member state.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

Wow ,not sure what other members of EU going to think about that then but I guess France Germany can do what they want in EU cos they the big players and the other countries just have to suck it up I quess ,but I'm kinda expecting in the not too distant future a deal headline from France/Germany as so tempest doesn't get all the running headlines

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by serge750 »

would that be a incentive for all EU countries to buy their plane....

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

Possibly serge750, but not so sure the countries that have spent on the f35 as going to be along time they get their full orders thru and most won't have 2 types of main fighter in their fleets nowadays,just cost too much for split buys I'm guessing
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

motiv wrote: 19 Jul 2022, 15:27
SD67 wrote: 19 Jul 2022, 14:35 I think Dassault CEO Trappier recently said that FCAS has already missed 2040, and with Rafale cleaning up in the export market I suspect the foot has gone off the gas
I wouldn't put too much into what is said about timeframes. Throw enough money at something, and suddenly it is possible.

“Even if I give you nine women, you cannot give me baby in one month”
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by motiv »

SD67 wrote: 20 Jul 2022, 18:07
motiv wrote: 19 Jul 2022, 15:27
SD67 wrote: 19 Jul 2022, 14:35 I think Dassault CEO Trappier recently said that FCAS has already missed 2040, and with Rafale cleaning up in the export market I suspect the foot has gone off the gas
I wouldn't put too much into what is said about timeframes. Throw enough money at something, and suddenly it is possible.

“Even if I give you nine women, you cannot give me baby in one month”
One of my old Project Managers, brilliant Chinese guy
You've never dated a pregnant woman!

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Timmymagic »

motiv wrote: 19 Jul 2022, 15:27 I read today the EU is looking into subsidising equipment bought by 3+ EU states from EU defence contractors.

So basically Spain, France and Germany would get a 10% subsidy for buying their own FCAS, subsidised by every other member state.
It's a 500m EUR fund over 2 years...I suspect it will mainly go on munitions stockpiles. If SCAF sees 10m EUR of it I'd be surprised...

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by motiv »

https://aviationweek.com/shownews/farnb ... Track=true

Stating metal already being cut for it!

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

Or carbon fibre molded?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by TheLoneRanger »

motiv wrote: 22 Jul 2022, 21:13 https://aviationweek.com/shownews/farnb ... Track=true

Stating metal already being cut for it!
Excellent news. Something real and flying is a bit more difficult to cancel ( relative of course ) then keeping it all abstract for politicans who will happily cancel what they consider to be a paper project - as "some" UK politicans have a tendancy to drink from the "fountain of lets do it with the EU countries to save costs" (ignoring fully how both the Tornado programmes and Typhoon programmes were such cluster f----ks on cost overruns and delayed schedules which in the case of the Typhoon led to not being able to achieve its full potential until recently via the UK funded upgrades ) and we all know how UK / EU defence projects go ...

I honestly think that the way the funding was done for the Typhoon programme recently for its upgrades that includes a new radar, and cockpit layout - that there may well be 2 variants of the Tempest... a 5th gen version that has stealth from its aiframes combined with the latest avionics/radar under the 2.35billion upgrade programme from the Typhoon - ie a F22 Raptor +++ variant type and then a true 6th gen version which is more about the "systems of system" architecture approach, inc loyal wingmans, hypersonic systems etc .... the stealth characteristics between 5th and 6th gen are not that much(more blended airframes with lessons learnt etc) so the UK can expand the RAF better earlier given what has happened in Ukraine etc. This new news of a flying demonstrator so early in the programme makes me think this way..

The recent chatter of CABTOR pricing mis-representations by people in the MOD is also interesting - are we likely to see a new build QE built with and EMALS CATOBAR with eventual refits onto the original 2 once the costs have been costed for in a new build ? ( a stretch and sepculative on my part ... )

The Tempest is being designed along modern lines of a modular architecture with the avioncs systems totally decoupled from the airframe etc.. so - there are more possibilities of what it can be changed to do - than before..

"IMHO" of course.... but it is how i read the latest announcements ... and i may be joining toooo many dots together - lets see..

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Cooper »

Article in today's Telegraph:
Image
For the comedy value I thought about including some of the comments..but thought better of it, too depressing.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

If Japan are on board anything is possible.

F35B capping out at around 74 means there is the fast combat air funding line available from around 2027/8 which fits with the prototype timeline. Nice.

BAE already testing manufacturing processes means it’s real. Only real risk I can see is the Italian economy in the mid 2020s but then they seem to find the money from somewhere and the reported deal with Egypt should float them for a while
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... se-budget/
Italy has hiked defense spending again as it showers cash on the Tempest fighter program in 2022 and radically upgrades its forecast for its total spending on the sixth-generation program.

The newly released 2022 budget includes €18 billion (U.S. $18.4 billion) in defense ministry spending, up from the €16.8 billion spent in 2021, which was in turn an increase from previous years.
One program benefiting from a big boost in funding was the Tempest fighter, which teams Italy with the UK and Sweden.

After last year predicting annual spending in 2022 and 2023 of €20 million each year, the new budget commits €220 million this year and forecasts €345 million next year.
Contrast that to £2bn originally earmarked till 2025 by the UK, that was then cut by £450m.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by matt00773 »

Jensy wrote: 26 Jul 2022, 23:47
Italy has hiked defense spending again as it showers cash on the Tempest fighter program in 2022 and radically upgrades its forecast for its total spending on the sixth-generation program.

The newly released 2022 budget includes €18 billion (U.S. $18.4 billion) in defense ministry spending, up from the €16.8 billion spent in 2021, which was in turn an increase from previous years.
One program benefiting from a big boost in funding was the Tempest fighter, which teams Italy with the UK and Sweden.

After last year predicting annual spending in 2022 and 2023 of €20 million each year, the new budget commits €220 million this year and forecasts €345 million next year.
Contrast that to £2bn originally earmarked till 2025 by the UK, that was then cut by £450m.
There was never a £450m cut to the Tempest budget.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by matt00773 »

It seems the US is keen to maintain some way to collaborate on 6th gen fighters.

"US, UK Will Have ‘Avenue’ to Share Best Practices for Sixth-Gen Fighter Development"

https://www.airforcemag.com/us-uk-will- ... velopment/
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by motiv »

matt00773 wrote: 29 Jul 2022, 05:28 It seems the US is keen to maintain some way to collaborate on 6th gen fighters.

"US, UK Will Have ‘Avenue’ to Share Best Practices for Sixth-Gen Fighter Development"
I found this little bit interesting
“We’re aware the U.K. is working with Sweden and Italy on [Tempest],” Metrolis said. “And I saw the announcement about involving Japan, though I believe the U.K. will have to formally submit a request to Sweden and Italy to have Japan join the program.”
Mainly that he knows this, rather than just presumes it like the rest of us would.
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