Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
Spitfire9
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Spitfire9 »

Ian Hall wrote: 14 Dec 2023, 08:14 Noteworthy report.

https://news.sky.com/story/uk-signs-dea ... n-13029959
I read a lot of the convention. I don't like it. I hope it is not implemented in its current form. Why? Principally because it sets out to protect the project from reasonable scrutiny:

CHAPTER VII
PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES
ARTICLE 28
(1) The Premises of the GIGO shall be inviolable. The GIGO, its property and assets, wherever
located and by whomsoever held, shall enjoy immunity from every form of legal process, except
insofar as in any particular case the CE has expressly waived immunity. It is, however,
understood that no waiver of immunity shall imply waiver of immunity in respect of the
execution of judgment, for which a separate waiver by the SC shall be necessary.
(2) The property and assets of the GIGO, wherever located and by whomsoever held, shall be
immune from search, requisition, confiscation, expropriation, and any other form of interference,
whether by executive, administrative, judicial or legislative action.
(3) The archives of the GIGO, wherever located, shall be inviolable. For the purposes of this
Convention, “archives” includes all records, correspondence, documents, manuscripts,
photographs, films and recordings belonging to or held by the GIGO.

https://www.mofa.go.jp/files/100595078.pdf

No need for cover ups, then. Evidence of incompetence, corruption, bad decision making etc are covered up by default.

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mrclark303
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by mrclark303 »

Spitfire9 wrote: 14 Dec 2023, 10:44
Ian Hall wrote: 14 Dec 2023, 08:14 Noteworthy report.

https://news.sky.com/story/uk-signs-dea ... n-13029959
I read a lot of the convention. I don't like it. I hope it is not implemented in its current form. Why? Principally because it sets out to protect the project from reasonable scrutiny:

CHAPTER VII
PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES
ARTICLE 28
(1) The Premises of the GIGO shall be inviolable. The GIGO, its property and assets, wherever
located and by whomsoever held, shall enjoy immunity from every form of legal process, except
insofar as in any particular case the CE has expressly waived immunity. It is, however,
understood that no waiver of immunity shall imply waiver of immunity in respect of the
execution of judgment, for which a separate waiver by the SC shall be necessary.
(2) The property and assets of the GIGO, wherever located and by whomsoever held, shall be
immune from search, requisition, confiscation, expropriation, and any other form of interference,
whether by executive, administrative, judicial or legislative action.
(3) The archives of the GIGO, wherever located, shall be inviolable. For the purposes of this
Convention, “archives” includes all records, correspondence, documents, manuscripts,
photographs, films and recordings belonging to or held by the GIGO.

https://www.mofa.go.jp/files/100595078.pdf

No need for cover ups, then. Evidence of incompetence, corruption, bad decision making etc are covered up by default.
The lawyer says.......

"except
insofar as in any particular case the CE has expressly waived immunity. It is, however,
understood that no waiver of immunity shall imply waiver of immunity in respect of the
execution of judgment, for which a separate waiver by the SC shall be necessary."

The barista says, I still don't understand, is that with or without milk 🤣

You just have to love legal jargon, in a nutshell, no one is to be held responsible unless they clearly indicate they they are responsible, but that's subject to them agreeing to be responsible for the responsibility!!!

All clear, good, moving on....

Sandwiches at cockpit design meetings, with or without crusts???

What do you mean you want sushi and pizza slices, it has to be sandwiches and stewd tea!

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

Can someone explain at this point of thinking because all could change as time goes on but between the two designs GCAP and SCAF ,I'm I right in thinking the GCAP probably going to be a larger fighter, better range maybe more carrying capacity and more a fighter and independent and the SCAF going to be lighter with less range but more offboard systems ,for example GCAP might have larger radar with longer ranges etc built into the GCAP fighter itself whereas the SCAF gets more information like radar picture from other sources? ,I might be well off the ball with this but someone can put me right I'm sure , thanks ,👍

Spitfire9
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Spitfire9 »

More on the Convention - the question of partners vetoing exports to non-partners is kicked down the road:

ARTICLE 51
(1) The Parties shall create and maintain a common mechanism for facilitating exports of GCAP
systems, subsystems, and technology to non-Parties. Such a mechanism shall be described in a
further arrangement between the relevant authorities of the Parties.

https://www.mofa.go.jp/files/100595078.pdf

This should have a clear resolution before funds are thrown into launching the project otherwise a German 'no Typhoon to KSA/ no Typhoon to Turkiye' situation can arise. There is no reason to wait. I think 'the relevant authorities of the Parties' must mean the governments of the countries involved eg the parties put into law that they cannot delay or veto exports where GCAP products are concerned (with no defence against damages claims if they transgress). If any party refuses to agree to those conditions, the project can proceed on that basis with clarity.

A no veto agreement would mean that if Argentina wanted to buy Tempest, UK would not be entitled to block supply without having to pay damages to the other partners if they wanted to supply. Can't have it both ways, can you?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

Spitfire9 wrote: 14 Dec 2023, 10:44
Ian Hall wrote: 14 Dec 2023, 08:14 Noteworthy report.

https://news.sky.com/story/uk-signs-dea ... n-13029959
I read a lot of the convention. I don't like it. I hope it is not implemented in its current form. Why? Principally because it sets out to protect the project from reasonable scrutiny:

CHAPTER VII
PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES
ARTICLE 28
(1) The Premises of the GIGO shall be inviolable. The GIGO, its property and assets, wherever
located and by whomsoever held, shall enjoy immunity from every form of legal process, except
insofar as in any particular case the CE has expressly waived immunity. It is, however,
understood that no waiver of immunity shall imply waiver of immunity in respect of the
execution of judgment, for which a separate waiver by the SC shall be necessary.
(2) The property and assets of the GIGO, wherever located and by whomsoever held, shall be
immune from search, requisition, confiscation, expropriation, and any other form of interference,
whether by executive, administrative, judicial or legislative action.
(3) The archives of the GIGO, wherever located, shall be inviolable. For the purposes of this
Convention, “archives” includes all records, correspondence, documents, manuscripts,
photographs, films and recordings belonging to or held by the GIGO.

https://www.mofa.go.jp/files/100595078.pdf

No need for cover ups, then. Evidence of incompetence, corruption, bad decision making etc are covered up by default.
Translation :
We are going to be in the Defence export business, like France. If we want to put the son of the Emir through Eton at the taxpayer's expense and buy a few hookers for the Dad in return for a 10 billion GBP deal we shall do so. Nothing to see here.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

Spitfire9 wrote: 14 Dec 2023, 13:01 More on the Convention - the question of partners vetoing exports to non-partners is kicked down the road:

ARTICLE 51
(1) The Parties shall create and maintain a common mechanism for facilitating exports of GCAP
systems, subsystems, and technology to non-Parties. Such a mechanism shall be described in a
further arrangement between the relevant authorities of the Parties.

https://www.mofa.go.jp/files/100595078.pdf

This should have a clear resolution before funds are thrown into launching the project otherwise a German 'no Typhoon to KSA/ no Typhoon to Turkiye' situation can arise. There is no reason to wait. I think 'the relevant authorities of the Parties' must mean the governments of the countries involved eg the parties put into law that they cannot delay or veto exports where GCAP products are concerned (with no defence against damages claims if they transgress). If any party refuses to agree to those conditions, the project can proceed on that basis with clarity.

A no veto agreement would mean that if Argentina wanted to buy Tempest, UK would not be entitled to block supply without having to pay damages to the other partners if they wanted to supply. Can't have it both ways, can you?
Argentina won't be able to afford it so that's a moot point.

There are interesting questions though. First - what is the export product? That needs to be defined. Likely the export variant will not be the "full box and dice". Maybe as part of that definition some Japanese components can be excluded to ease sensitivities. Win win.

Second - where will the export variant be built. Frankly I think the Japanese production line will be flatout supplying Japan for the forseeable future. Maybe Japan could do orders for Indonesia or Vietnam eventually but initially at least I'm guessing export will be very much a Anglo-Italian enterprise. Again, that suits everyone.

It is promising that they are talking about one, common export mechanism. There should be one united channel, a loose consortium won't work. If they stick to timetables with full government support this could be a red hot product in the mid 2030s - first 6th gen aircraft on the export market, with Britain's traditional customers in the Gulf + Italys strength in the Med
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by mrclark303 »

SD67 wrote: 14 Dec 2023, 13:12
Spitfire9 wrote: 14 Dec 2023, 10:44
Ian Hall wrote: 14 Dec 2023, 08:14 Noteworthy report.

https://news.sky.com/story/uk-signs-dea ... n-13029959
I read a lot of the convention. I don't like it. I hope it is not implemented in its current form. Why? Principally because it sets out to protect the project from reasonable scrutiny:

CHAPTER VII
PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES
ARTICLE 28
(1) The Premises of the GIGO shall be inviolable. The GIGO, its property and assets, wherever
located and by whomsoever held, shall enjoy immunity from every form of legal process, except
insofar as in any particular case the CE has expressly waived immunity. It is, however,
understood that no waiver of immunity shall imply waiver of immunity in respect of the
execution of judgment, for which a separate waiver by the SC shall be necessary.
(2) The property and assets of the GIGO, wherever located and by whomsoever held, shall be
immune from search, requisition, confiscation, expropriation, and any other form of interference,
whether by executive, administrative, judicial or legislative action.
(3) The archives of the GIGO, wherever located, shall be inviolable. For the purposes of this
Convention, “archives” includes all records, correspondence, documents, manuscripts,
photographs, films and recordings belonging to or held by the GIGO.

https://www.mofa.go.jp/files/100595078.pdf

No need for cover ups, then. Evidence of incompetence, corruption, bad decision making etc are covered up by default.
Translation :
We are going to be in the Defence export business, like France. If we want to put the son of the Emir through Eton at the taxpayer's expense and buy a few hookers for the Dad in return for a 10 billion GBP deal we shall do so. Nothing to see here.
How the hell did you get hold of the annotated notes!!
There's been a security breach !!🤣🤣🤣

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by new guy »

Nice new renders...



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2HeadsBetter
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by 2HeadsBetter »

It's looking very F22-like.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by new guy »

2HeadsBetter wrote: 26 Dec 2023, 09:33 It's looking very F22-like.
Stealth formula

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by abc123 »

So, Sweden is definitly out?
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by mrclark303 »

abc123 wrote: 27 Dec 2023, 16:17 So, Sweden is definitly out?
Well they are out of tier one at least, to be fair it's hard to see how a very large twin engined fighter that's likely to be three / four times the size of Gripen would fit into Swedish doctrine.....

The French dominance of the opposing choice makes that equally unappetising.

Other options??

Gripen G perhaps.....

To be fair, from what we have seen, Gripen E would easily send anything the Russians put up against it at the bottom of the Baltic ...
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

Work with Boeing on a scaled up T7? Gripen E with a Tempest engine?
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by new guy »

SD67 wrote: 27 Dec 2023, 17:47 Work with Boeing on a scaled up T7? Gripen E with a Tempest engine?
Probably a next version of gripen. Not much of a need for anything better. No reason to switch to T7, would be a step sideways at best instead of forward, In a game where each move costs dearly.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by mrclark303 »

new guy wrote: 27 Dec 2023, 19:03
SD67 wrote: 27 Dec 2023, 17:47 Work with Boeing on a scaled up T7? Gripen E with a Tempest engine?
Probably a next version of gripen. Not much of a need for anything better. No reason to switch to T7, would be a step sideways at best instead of forward, In a game where each move costs dearly.
I'm sure in the late 2030's, SAAB could build a new low observable airframe, perhaps big enough for internal bays and using a next gen single engine, perhaps a variation of the Tempests eventual powerplant.
I dare say it would end up looking something like an F35.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SW1 »

The gripen e isn’t that small in physical size in terms of fast jets. I still do not really see how people are scaling the aircraft with what they’ve made public when they continually talk about it being huge in size. Is it physical size, weight or range or something else.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

The graphic in the telegraph (I know I know) listed GCAP as having a length of 18.9 metres, which would indicate F22 size

Maybe the journalist pulled the figure out of the ether but I thought at the time it looks oddly specific for a guess

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by new guy »

SD67 wrote: 28 Dec 2023, 10:46 The graphic in the telegraph (I know I know) listed GCAP as having a length of 18.9 metres, which would indicate F22 size

Maybe the journalist pulled the figure out of the ether but I thought at the time it looks oddly specific for a guess
From what we have seen from BAE and elsewhere, such as the engine intakes( 10m long intakes!) , we are looking at something 20m or more in length.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SW1 »

SD67 wrote: 28 Dec 2023, 10:46 The graphic in the telegraph (I know I know) listed GCAP as having a length of 18.9 metres, which would indicate F22 size

Maybe the journalist pulled the figure out of the ether but I thought at the time it looks oddly specific for a guess
F22 is about the same size as the F15. But has significantly less range. The f35 is quite a long ranged jet but not massive in size for a fighter.

There is some info in the public domain about tempest but I wouldn’t extrapolate to much, when the public get to see the demonstrator you will have more of an idea.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by new guy »

SW1 wrote: 28 Dec 2023, 11:38
SD67 wrote: 28 Dec 2023, 10:46 The graphic in the telegraph (I know I know) listed GCAP as having a length of 18.9 metres, which would indicate F22 size

Maybe the journalist pulled the figure out of the ether but I thought at the time it looks oddly specific for a guess
F22 is about the same size as the F15. But has significantly less range. The f35 is quite a long ranged jet but not massive in size for a fighter.

There is some info in the public domain about tempest but I wouldn’t extrapolate to much, when the public get to see the demonstrator you will have more of an idea.
Even the tempest demonstrator will be quite different from the GCAP demonstrator which will be different from production GCAP.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SW1 wrote: 28 Dec 2023, 10:16 The gripen e isn’t that small in physical size in terms of fast jets. I still do not really see how people are scaling the aircraft with what they’ve made public when they continually talk about it being huge in size. Is it physical size, weight or range or something else.
All indicators, including intake trials suggest a large aircraft.

Our previous attempts to build a larger aircraft in Tornado and Thypoon were always limited by German insistence on the smallest airframe possible.

Physical size limited the Tornados potential and had the Germans got their own way, Thypoon would have been significantly smaller.

It was only RAF insistence that Eurofighter be able to carry four AMRAAM, semi recessed in a twin random arrangement on the fuselage that dictated physical size. Everything was scaled to that requirement.

Apparently that was an extremely hard fought battle too, that came close to ending the programme in the late 1980's.

Had the Germans argument for 'small and affordable' won out, we would probably be looking at something closer to Gripen today with a single engine....

With regards to GCAP, The Japanese and the UK ( one would assume Italy too) want class leading all aspect stealth, excellent internal weapons carriage capacity and range, along with air superiority against any likely competitor into the 2050's, that means highly sophisticated avionics and inevitably a very large airframe.

The RAF will (hopefully) finally get the aircraft it wants, not hamstrung by bloody Germany again!

The Italian requirement is slightly more nuanced, Tempest is a hard sell when you are also operating the F35A, it's rather a duplication of capability, although Tempest will likely be substantially larger and longer ranged, the F35A is already overmatched for any likely adversary for the next 20 plus years .

But hey, if they want to pay to join the GCAP club and they can sell a massively expensive duplicate programme to the Italian people, then why not, the Italians bring much know how to the table....
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

mrclark303 wrote: 29 Dec 2023, 00:20
SW1 wrote: 28 Dec 2023, 10:16 The gripen e isn’t that small in physical size in terms of fast jets. I still do not really see how people are scaling the aircraft with what they’ve made public when they continually talk about it being huge in size. Is it physical size, weight or range or something else.
The Italian requirement is slightly more nuanced, Tempest is a hard sell when you are also operating the F35A, it's rather a duplication of capability, although Tempest will likely be substantially larger and longer ranged, the F35A is already overmatched for any likely adversary for the next 20 plus years .
I suspect Italy's involvement is primarily industrial. It's an "anchor" product that will underpin a range of hi tech industry for the next 50 years.

Japan also operate F35A. You have to assume both Japan and Italy have done their assessment and see a gap otherwise the project wouldn't have got this far. "Next 20 plus years" is probably the key point - if first delivery is 2035 then IOC likely 2040, it could be a different world by then
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by mrclark303 »

SD67 wrote: 29 Dec 2023, 10:32
mrclark303 wrote: 29 Dec 2023, 00:20
SW1 wrote: 28 Dec 2023, 10:16 The gripen e isn’t that small in physical size in terms of fast jets. I still do not really see how people are scaling the aircraft with what they’ve made public when they continually talk about it being huge in size. Is it physical size, weight or range or something else.
The Italian requirement is slightly more nuanced, Tempest is a hard sell when you are also operating the F35A, it's rather a duplication of capability, although Tempest will likely be substantially larger and longer ranged, the F35A is already overmatched for any likely adversary for the next 20 plus years .
I suspect Italy's involvement is primarily industrial. It's an "anchor" product that will underpin a range of hi tech industry for the next 50 years.

Japan also operate F35A. You have to assume both Japan and Italy have done their assessment and see a gap otherwise the project wouldn't have got this far. "Next 20 plus years" is probably the key point - if first delivery is 2035 then IOC likely 2040, it could be a different world by then
Very good points.....

The range issue is a real and present one when you consider the UK and Japan, though 'slightly' more puzzling regarding Italy....

The F35A more than covers Italian military requirements and for that matter, will cover ours if GCAP is cancelled.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SW1 »

This is predominantly an industrial project for all the nations concerned not just Italy.

This is an a/c that will replace typhoon and the F2 in service with their respective countries.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by mrclark303 »

SW1 wrote: 29 Dec 2023, 13:05 This is predominantly an industrial project for all the nations concerned not just Italy.

This is an a/c that will replace typhoon and the F2 in service with their respective countries.
It represents more than a simple replacement, GCAP represents a giant leap forward in capability.

It's projected size should allow an 800 / 1000 mile ROA, if that in turn is to release a long range Storm Shadow successor, then it will enable very low observable and survivable strike at 'long' intermediate ranges against sophisticated layered air defence systems.

All without AAR support..

The RAF will effectively finally get it's TSR2 capability after a 60 year wait and Japan will get an aircraft that China will truly fear.

If Saudi Arabia receive it, it will be able to strike any target within it's wider area of interest, from the Med in the East, to Indian Ocean in the West, to the far north of Iran and far into its Western Desert neighbours, I would have thought it was a capability that would make both Israel and the US rather nervous to be honest.
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