Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
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Jensy
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Jensy »

Meriv9 wrote: 08 Nov 2023, 21:12 We don't need a big country, we need a figuratively one.

The Czech could be an option, since they had soviet Aerospace industry.

Like the Swedish they don't need to buy, just chip in, in order to be called European.
Spain, despite being a massive long shot, would be a good fit.

Eurofighter member, solid aerospace industry and a very large EEZ.

They're also rather keen to get their hands on F-35B for Juan Carlos, giving symmetry with us and Italy. Which, if France decided to punish them on, could create an inroads.

Don't see it happening but frankly I didn't see Japan jumping ship from US industry either.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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According to the schedule I have heard, a little over six weeks remain for UK, Italy and Japan to sign up for the project. Has agreement in principle been reached (just negotiating over details now) or not?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Seems to me that far and away the most obvious country to talk to about joining GCAP would be our AUKUS ally Australia. They are buying circa 100 F-35A but might still be very interested in a further 80 or so of something with significantly greater range as their Super Hornets approach retirement.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Phil Sayers wrote: 15 Nov 2023, 21:04 Seems to me that far and away the most obvious country to talk to about joining GCAP would be our AUKUS ally Australia. They are buying circa 100 F-35A but might still be very interested in a further 80 or so of something with significantly greater range as their Super Hornets approach retirement.
aussiland has 72 F-35, with a possibility for up to another 28 if they want super hornet replacements. There has been doubts recently.
Australia currently operates 24 super hornets + 12 growlers.

It is a bit like saying how the UK programme for F-35 is 138, when we are more on our way to 72.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Phil Sayers »

new guy wrote: 15 Nov 2023, 21:39
aussiland has 72 F-35, with a possibility for up to another 28 if they want super hornet replacements. There has been doubts recently.
Australia currently operates 24 super hornets + 12 growlers.

It is a bit like saying how the UK programme for F-35 is 138, when we are more on our way to 72.
Thanks, I take the point but Australia do seem to be taking their defence requirements pretty seriously (albeit, as with ourselves, possibly eyes bigger than wallet) and so I do think an expansion of their fast jet fleet is a real possibility, particularly if those extra F-35 options are not exercised. Not sure how much additional weight putting CEAFAR in a Tempest nose will cause though.... :angel:

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Phil Sayers wrote: 15 Nov 2023, 21:55
new guy wrote: 15 Nov 2023, 21:39
aussiland has 72 F-35, with a possibility for up to another 28 if they want super hornet replacements. There has been doubts recently.
Australia currently operates 24 super hornets + 12 growlers.

It is a bit like saying how the UK programme for F-35 is 138, when we are more on our way to 72.
Thanks, I take the point but Australia do seem to be taking their defence requirements pretty seriously (albeit, as with ourselves, possibly eyes bigger than wallet) and so I do think an expansion of their fast jet fleet is a real possibility, particularly if those extra F-35 options are not exercised. Not sure how much additional weight putting CEAFAR in a Tempest nose will cause though.... :angel:
Artist rendering of Tempest with CEAFAR. Filmed from a Canberra. :lol:
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Pfftts the way to sell the Tempest to Australia is calling it the heir of the F-111 considering the size of that the Tempest is going to have.

Let the nostalgia do its work.

It's like for us Italians, slap a 76mm on anything and we are going to buy it 🤣
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/ai-bein ... ghter-jet/

Mmmm... I was under the impression that this was an international programme.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Meriv9 wrote: 15 Nov 2023, 23:53 Pfftts the way to sell the Tempest to Australia is calling it the heir of the F-111 considering the size of that the Tempest is going to have.

Let the nostalgia do its work.

It's like for us Italians, slap a 76mm on anything and we are going to buy it 🤣
In the late 2030's, GCAP could well appeal a great deal to the Australians, it's size, range and capabilities being of particular interest.

At this point, they are so invested in the F35A, that looking seriously at anything to supplement it would be unpalatable for their treasury.

A viable replacement for their Super Hornet fleet perhaps......

F35A and GCAP could potentially make one hell of team together.....

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/japan ... rd=dlvr.it

TOKYO - Japan, Britain and Italy will sign a treaty in Tokyo next week to establish a joint organisation and industry group for developing their planned advanced jet fighter, three sources with direct knowledge of the plans said.

An inter-government body will oversee the industry group venture led by Britain's BAE Systems PLC, Japan's Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Italy's Leonardo.

That group will distribute work to teams in different parts of the Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP), such as the engine and avionics, the sources said.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Sounds very vague. Simple question - who does the revenue go to in first instance? IMHO they need an integrated Industrial JV as in New Airbus

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SD67 wrote: 06 Dec 2023, 13:32 Sounds very vague. Simple question - who does the revenue go to in first instance? IMHO they need an integrated Industrial JV as in New Airbus
Sounds vague to me, too. It should be less vague after a treaty is signed and its contents made public. I imagine that the funding breakdown between the partners at least will be made clear.

I don't like the sound of the management of the project switching from one partner to another to another. It sounds a bit like setting up a company in which the chairman and board of directors are to be changed at regular intervals regardless of how able they are. What do the non-executive chair and directors do and cost when not executing their duties?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Meriv9 »

What if it something like NETMA more than MBDA/Airbus or other multinational companies.

They Key wording i think it is "inter-goverment".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Eu ... ent_Agency

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Article from September. You can only read one a month from this source, I gather.
"What we hope and what we are working for is to produce hundreds of platforms [aircraft], other than those provided to the three nations," said Guglielmo Maviglia, chief GCAP officer at Italy's Leonardo.

But Japan, which has a policy of restricting arms exports, will have a say in whether aircraft built with Japanese components can be sold abroad.

The country's constitution does not forbid arms exports explicitly, but some of its articles have been interpreted by successive governments as essentially banning arms exports, except under limited conditions. It has not yet been determined whether the GCAP falls under these conditions.

Recent opinion polls show the public still largely opposes the idea of Japan selling weapons overseas. A poll by Jiji Press in August showed that 60.4% were against the country exporting lethal weapons; 16.5% were in favor.

"No consensus has been formed within Japan's ruling coalition over a sale of the new fighter jet by the U.K. and Italy to other countries," said Satoshi Morimoto, a former defense minister and Air Self-Defense Force officer.

However, BAE is looking to bring large potential customers like Saudi Arabia into the project, according to press reports. This would likely spark opposition in pacifist Japan, owing to Saudi Arabia's war with Yemen and the murder of dissident Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/The-B ... nse-policy

Out of the German frying pan into the Japanese fire?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Meriv9 wrote: 06 Dec 2023, 23:49 What if it something like NETMA more than MBDA/Airbus or other multinational companies.

They Key wording i think it is "inter-goverment".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Eu ... ent_Agency
Then it's back to being a consortium. I think that is absolutely the wrong way to go. Governments are the Customers, not the Delivery managers. Every souring decision becomes a political negotiation - nightmare

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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The problem isn't the tool is the attitude. IMHO. Look at Italian cooperation

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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True. Withe right attitude the legal structure is irrelevant

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Spitfire9 »

A lot of info on what is projected...

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... -warplane/
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SW1 wrote: 08 Dec 2023, 22:10
All coming along nicely, we are all on tender hooks for contract signature now, it would be a nice Christmas present for us to hear it's been signed off.

On that note, I hope there's been back channels open between the Government and Labour over this, an understanding and gentleman's handshake that GCAP is obviously needed and no political party will interfere with its smooth progression through development to fielding. It should be a ring fenced programme.

Afterall, the programme will stretch through 3 complete Parliamentary cycles.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Don't see why labour would be against it. And yes it should be ring-fenced.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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new guy wrote: 09 Dec 2023, 13:02 Don't see why labour would be against it. And yes it should be ring-fenced.
Who knows, have Labour embrased it?
Have they confirmed anything to do with GCAP?

As an additional issue, there are rather fanatical pro EU elements within the Labour party, determined to push us as close to EU structures as possible.

They may try an exert pressure to join the Franco German offering.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by serge750 »

Lets hope that the question comes up before the election weather Labour backs it or not - personaly i think its a no brainer ! especially as it will be our nations main jet to have a greater say in its capabilitys & upgrades etc even if it ends up as an home grown F22 it better than more f35 - it will cost in the term though......fortune favours the brave :thumbup:
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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I suspect that there have been back channels to Labor

If not by the government itself then likely by the Treasury as part of their due diligence

The Unions seem to be on board - and they've basically got the votes
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/unite-t ... -aviation/
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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