Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
SW1
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SW1 »

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... production

Visiting the company's Warton site in Lancashire on 29 July to formally announce the launch of the FCAS concept and assessment phase, UK defence secretary Ben Wallace told Janes that significant numbers of manned Tempest aircraft would be “built at scale” at Warton. Asked whether the widespread use of manned Tempest aircraft in conjunction with unmanned systems would drive down the number airframes required by the Royal Air Force (RAF) to significantly less that the 160 Eurofighter Typhoons ordered by the UK, Wallace said Tempest would not be a “boutique product”. “Volume matters,” he commented.

During his visit, Wallace announced the release of the first tranche of concept and assessment phase funding worth GBP250 million (USD348 million), which he described as a “momentous step in the next phase of our FCAS”. He said the “big decisions” on production numbers and the manned/unmanned mix would be made at the end of 2024.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by dmereifield »

SW1 wrote:https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... production

Visiting the company's Warton site in Lancashire on 29 July to formally announce the launch of the FCAS concept and assessment phase, UK defence secretary Ben Wallace told Janes that significant numbers of manned Tempest aircraft would be “built at scale” at Warton. Asked whether the widespread use of manned Tempest aircraft in conjunction with unmanned systems would drive down the number airframes required by the Royal Air Force (RAF) to significantly less that the 160 Eurofighter Typhoons ordered by the UK, Wallace said Tempest would not be a “boutique product”. “Volume matters,” he commented.

During his visit, Wallace announced the release of the first tranche of concept and assessment phase funding worth GBP250 million (USD348 million), which he described as a “momentous step in the next phase of our FCAS”. He said the “big decisions” on production numbers and the manned/unmanned mix would be made at the end of 2024.
We can but hope that actions and words are aligned, for a change

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Cooper
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Cooper »

dmereifield wrote: We can but hope that actions and words are aligned, for a change
It doesn't really matter one little bit what the current defence secretary says about projected numbers of airframes, only how much money the treasury say is available, to his immediate successors over the next 10-15yrs.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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https://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2021/ ... 3-P2-S7-T1

Tempest, l'Italia stanzia due miliardi per il nuovo supercaccia
di Gianluca Di Feo
L’impegno è stato formalizzato dal Documento Programmatico Pluriennale approvato ieri, un testo di grande trasparenza che presenta tutti i piani della Difesa da lanciare nel periodo tra il 2021 e il 2023. Il velivolo sarà realizzato insieme a Svezia e Gran Bretagna
Behind paywall, but here the first 2bln for the Tempest from our side

Will keep you updated on the political storm it is going to create.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by motiv »

Meriv9 wrote:https://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2021/ ... 3-P2-S7-T1
Behind paywall, but here the first 2bln for the Tempest from our side

Will keep you updated on the political storm it is going to create.
Italy has decided to invest in a new sixth generation superfighter, more advanced than the F35. This is the Tempest, an aircraft that will be built together with Great Britain and Sweden. And which is destined to become the most expensive program of our armed forces: six billion euros are foreseen for development costs alone.

The commitment was formalized by the Multiannual Planning Document approved yesterday, a highly transparent text that presents all the Defense plans to be launched in the period between 2021 and 2023. 85 programs that are to be launched are described and updated on others 115 already in progress: in practice, the complete picture of the appropriations for this sector. «The aerospace, defense and security industry - declared Minister Lorenzo Guerini - represents one of the most competitive Italian realities. A wealth of knowledge and qualified employment in which an important part of Italy's sovereignty resides, as well as its belonging to the circle of technologically and economically advanced countries ».

THE INNOVATIVE MEANS
The Tempest is a candidate to be the most important investment for the next twenty years. A machine that will inherit the knowledge learned with the construction of the F35 but which has the ambition to mark a step forward in technological evolution. "The program - reads the Document - will, in fact, be the champion of innovation in the fields of Artificial Intelligence, Machine Learning, Deep Learning, mechanics, propulsion, energy management, innovative materials, ultra-performing sensors, electromagnetic transmissions efficient, cyber resilience, leading some of the major European industries leaders in aeronautical construction, mechanics, electronics to closely associate ".

The new super-fighter is referred to as a "system of systems". In fact, together with the aircraft, drones will be developed that will interact with the Tempest through artificial intelligence, sharing the information of the sensors. For this it will be able to carry out not only interception missions, but also reconnaissance and bombing missions.

COSTS TO BE DEFINED
Obviously, such an initiative has very high costs. The Document establishes an investment of two billion over fifteen years, with gradual growth. It will only be twenty million a year between now and 2023, then there will be an increase in subsequent ones. But it is only an advance. Six billion are assumed for the research and development phase, while it has not yet been established how much will be spent on the purchase of production fighters.

The first two billion will come from the defense budget but an intervention by the Ministry of Economic Development is already hypothesized - as already happens in the most important projects - "historical partner in the promotion of the national industry with the highest technological content, to implement the most adequate joint effort with a view to a qualified and influential adhesion of the national industry to international business and the negotiation of the most valuable and advantageous industrial, technological and employment returns ".

THE RACE TO PARTNERS
In fact, Italy's decision was dictated by the desire not to lag behind the partners, given that London and Stockholm have already decided on the first loans. According to the Document, “Tempest probably represents a competitive race to be accepted without delay in order to maximize the benefits of a national participation in the program from the very early stages of the project in order to capitalize on every possible technological return; On the other hand, a late membership could preclude the achievement of the optimal production and offset share, certainly requiring additional costs ". In practice, in these international collaborations, those who invest first can decide which components to develop, obtaining the most relevant technological and employment effects.

Compared to the aeronautical programs of the past, such as the Tornado fighter-bomber and the Eurofighter Typhoon, joining the Tempest marks a new geopolitical geography: Italy and Great Britain are separated from Germany, which has chosen to proceed with France and Spain to build another sixth generation superfighter. A split that many read as a dispersion of European economic and technological resources.

L’EURODRONE
For this reason, however, Italy wanted to continue participating in another entirely “made in Europe” project: the Male drone, which sees the participation of France, Germany and Spain with EU funding. This long-range robotic aircraft will deal with intelligence and surveillance, with a broad spectrum mission. The Document in fact speaks of "Defense and Homeland Security, support for intelligence, prevention and contrast of illicit phenomena, monitoring and contrasting crimes connected with the exploitation of migrations, contrasting illegal trafficking by sea, study of the national territory for its enhancement. or the prevention of natural disasters ”.

For Evil, 1,903 million have been allocated by the Defense between now and 2035. For the next three years, the expected figure is 284 million. There are no estimates on the overall cost of the operation, but also in this case the support of the Ministry of Economic Development is under consideration.

OTHER FLYING TANKS
In terms of collaboration with the United States, it was decided to purchase two other Boeing KC-767 flying tanks, for in-flight refueling of aircraft. They will be added to the two already in service and, as these will be modular: they will also have special kits for the transport of infected patients, which have proved invaluable for the management of the pandemic starting from the repatriations from Wuhan in March 2020. In this case, the estimated cost is 1,410 million euros.

THE NEW ARMORED
Leafing through the Document, we discover the start of a program for the new tracked combat vehicles for infantry: these are armored vehicles that accompany the tanks on the battlefield, destined to replace the current Dardo conceived at the time of the Cold War. Until now, the need was not felt to replace the Dardos, not very useful in the so-called peace missions, but the international scenarios are re-proposing threats of traditional conflicts. Funding for these armored vehicles is 2.141 million euros between now and 2035. But this is only a tranche of the necessary funds: the total cost is not yet known, given that there is still no choice on the model to be adopted and the doors are left open to cooperation with other European countries.

J. Tattersall

Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by J. Tattersall »

Interesting, Eurodrone seems to raise its head from time to time but with relatively little information. Given several European States have already bought General Atomics Predator/ Reaper/ Protector in various forms it'll be interesting to see what extra Eurodrone offers operationally and tactically, i.e. beyond defence industrial base considerations.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Timmymagic »

J. Tattersall wrote:Interesting, Eurodrone seems to raise its head from time to time but with relatively little information. Given several European States have already bought General Atomics Predator/ Reaper/ Protector in various forms it'll be interesting to see what extra Eurodrone offers operationally and tactically, i.e. beyond defence industrial base considerations.
It's part Reaper/Part Global Hawk.

Truth is Mantis would have done both jobs 10 years ago...

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Jensy
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Jensy »

Timmymagic wrote:
J. Tattersall wrote:Interesting, Eurodrone seems to raise its head from time to time but with relatively little information. Given several European States have already bought General Atomics Predator/ Reaper/ Protector in various forms it'll be interesting to see what extra Eurodrone offers operationally and tactically, i.e. beyond defence industrial base considerations.
It's part Reaper/Part Global Hawk.

Truth is Mantis would have done both jobs 10 years ago...
So many promising but ultimately doomed uninhabited concepts from BAE from the 2000s.

One wonders what the shape of inhabited aircraft development in Europe would look like, had Hollande not killed off Telemos a decade ago.

Would BAE and Dassault have continued that partnership into inhabited 6th generation, or would there still be two separate development programmes?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

Alternative history - Telemos then Taranis would have been built and we’d be charging full speed ahead with development of a 6th gen fighter as a BAE:Dassault 50/50 JV....

then at the last minute the French pull out taking all the IP with them

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Jensy
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Jensy »

Interesting choice of flags at the Tempest display:



Explained as:
Our stand includes the flags of Sweden, Italy and Japan to pay tribute to the international relationships we are developing as we work to design a Future Combat Air System #DSEI2021
Image

SW1
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Ron5
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Ron5 »

Excalibur made me laugh. Why on earth make a model?

Anyone see any differences with the Tempest model or is it the same as before?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Defiance »

Ron5 wrote:Excalibur made me laugh. Why on earth make a model?

Anyone see any differences with the Tempest model or is it the same as before?
Like it or not, the vast majority of people at those things love a good concept model about just about anything, guess it's a case of give the people what they want!

Model looks the same to me, for all intents and purposes.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Lord Jim »

Now we just have to wait for the nick names for the aircraft. Excalibur seems far too sensible. :D

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/ba ... 14.article

The UK’s Marshall has been granted delegated design authority by BAE Systems to support activities linked to the Tempest future combat air system programme.

Announced at the DSEI exhibition in London on 16 September, the development builds on a strategic collaboration framework agreement signed by the companies at the tri-service event two years ago.

Marshall chief executive Kathy Jenkins says the companies’ engineering teams have been working together since 2019 “over a wide range of products”, during which time Marshall has demonstrated its “unique range of expertise”.

The company will be approved to perform design work at its Cambridge site, “with manufacturing activities taking place at Marshall’s dedicated composites facility in North Yorkshire”.

Formerly chief operating officer at Marshall, Jenkins took the top job earlier this year, succeeding interim chief executive Gary Moynehan.

“Since Team Tempest was launched in 2018, we have continually sought opportunities to bring the very best of UK capability and expertise into the team,” says BAE Systems Air Sector chief operating officer Ian Muldowney. Pointing to its partner’s airframe and mechanical engineering skills, he notes that the new agreement will also explore opportunities on other military air programmes.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SW1 »

US rapid dragon program but an interesting concept for a number of future uk systems


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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Timmymagic »

SW1 wrote:US rapid dragon program but an interesting concept for a number of future uk systems
Future Offensive Air System from 20 years ago...funny how things come around...

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Timmymagic »

Italy and Sweden expected to sign contracts on the concept and assessment phase of Tempest by the end of the year.

Talks with Japan are ongoing...around collaboration and up to joining Tempest (unlikely I suspect..)

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... reddit.com

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Lord Jim »

Well as TEMPEST is supposed to be a system of systems, I am sure Japan can find an area and level it is comfortable working with the other TEMPEST members. This could be just improving Meteor or other weapons destined for Meteor and possibly their new air combat platform, or it could be as part of the loyal wingman programme that provides a UCAV to working with their platforms for example. They might not be fully paid up members of teh TEMPEST Team but they could still provide valuable technical know how that benefits everyone.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Defiance »

Timmymagic wrote: Talks with Japan are ongoing...around collaboration and up to joining Tempest (unlikely I suspect..)

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... reddit.com
Maybe not as a full partner but maybe as some other type of partner? RR are helping them build an engine for their F-X, maybe we could negotiate use of that in Tempest?

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/uk-to-h ... x-fighter/

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... ct-tempest

The UK-led Future Air Combat System (FCAS) has entered a “concept and assessment phase” with a contract worth approximately £250 million ($340 million) to lead contractor BAE Systems. The effort is also called Project Tempest— the name of a new and stealthy fighter aircraft that forms the centerpiece of the system. But at a series of presentations at the Defence and Security Equipment International (DSEI) show in London recently, officials described the wider ambitions and content of the FCAS.

Conrad Banks, chief engineer for future programs at Rolls-Royce, described the “Integrated Power System” that his company was developing for Tempest, which would combine the gas turbines with aircraft electrical systems. The IPS would serve as a “flying power station” that would provide 10 times more power to sensors and systems compared with the Typhoon, and also enable the use of directed energy. The design would provide for the ingestion of over 100 kg of air per second; combustion chambers operating at 2,000 deg C; and feature vapor cycles, distortion-tolerant fans, and advanced heat exchangers. Rolls-Royce used simulation tools to predict thermal flows and hotspots. AI would help calculate, for instance, how much power goes to charging batteries versus providing a power surge margin. Although the project would still require hardware testing, there would be no need to build eight full-scale development engines as in the case of the Typhoon. “We’re targeting a 50 percent reduction in development time,” Banks added.

Intrepid Mind Robotics managing director Adam Smith said that the modular design of the Mosquito airframe allowed for five different wing shapes to be interchanged with a fuselage in 10 minutes. Different payloads could also be easily added or removed. Developers are employing multicore processors, using techniques from the gaming industry. An official from Spirit Aerosystems said that “we’ve done 18 months design in nine months.” Air Marshal Wigston said that the project had progressed so well that the demonstrator would fly by the end of 2023, perhaps earlier.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

SW1 wrote: Conrad Banks, chief engineer for future programs at Rolls-Royce, described the “Integrated Power System”
Heh-he... may be the fact that the Congress made the F-35 engine a monopoly encapsulated them(selves) :o in a 'time capsule' :?:
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Ron5 »

SW1 wrote:https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... ct-tempest

The UK-led Future Air Combat System (FCAS) has entered a “concept and assessment phase” with a contract worth approximately £250 million ($340 million) to lead contractor BAE Systems. The effort is also called Project Tempest— the name of a new and stealthy fighter aircraft that forms the centerpiece of the system. But at a series of presentations at the Defence and Security Equipment International (DSEI) show in London recently, officials described the wider ambitions and content of the FCAS.

Conrad Banks, chief engineer for future programs at Rolls-Royce, described the “Integrated Power System” that his company was developing for Tempest, which would combine the gas turbines with aircraft electrical systems. The IPS would serve as a “flying power station” that would provide 10 times more power to sensors and systems compared with the Typhoon, and also enable the use of directed energy. The design would provide for the ingestion of over 100 kg of air per second; combustion chambers operating at 2,000 deg C; and feature vapor cycles, distortion-tolerant fans, and advanced heat exchangers. Rolls-Royce used simulation tools to predict thermal flows and hotspots. AI would help calculate, for instance, how much power goes to charging batteries versus providing a power surge margin. Although the project would still require hardware testing, there would be no need to build eight full-scale development engines as in the case of the Typhoon. “We’re targeting a 50 percent reduction in development time,” Banks added.

Intrepid Mind Robotics managing director Adam Smith said that the modular design of the Mosquito airframe allowed for five different wing shapes to be interchanged with a fuselage in 10 minutes. Different payloads could also be easily added or removed. Developers are employing multicore processors, using techniques from the gaming industry. An official from Spirit Aerosystems said that “we’ve done 18 months design in nine months.” Air Marshal Wigston said that the project had progressed so well that the demonstrator would fly by the end of 2023, perhaps earlier.
More than a little confusing with the article using the same name for the UK and the European programs.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Lord Jim »

Still earlier days bit at least things are moving forward. I wonder how well shielded these new engines are going to be? The heat they generate will otherwise negate any other stealth capabilities as it will glow like a Roman Candle to any IRST system or IIR AAM.

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