Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
SW1
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SW1 »

sunstersun wrote: 26 Nov 2021, 04:51
SW1 wrote: 25 Nov 2021, 21:09 Define what you mean by better?

Perhaps they are aiming for a product which is less susceptible to the whims of the US defence production act. Perhaps also looking at national industries they consider vital like propulsion, sensor, complex weapons and material science that cannot survive in the defence space if they are Frozen out of their domestic markets by US products.
Can you shoot down the F-35 at a ratio better than 1.0.

This is a war plane after all. Yes it's all nice to have that stuff you listed, but it better not be 100 billion in false confidence.

Why were not fighting against a f35 so why’s that a metric?


Nations will look after themselves first regardless of how “dire” your own situation is see the past two years for plenty of examples, so things on that list are not nice to haves they become essential.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by sunstersun »

SW1 wrote: 26 Nov 2021, 07:51
sunstersun wrote: 26 Nov 2021, 04:51
SW1 wrote: 25 Nov 2021, 21:09 Define what you mean by better?

Perhaps they are aiming for a product which is less susceptible to the whims of the US defence production act. Perhaps also looking at national industries they consider vital like propulsion, sensor, complex weapons and material science that cannot survive in the defence space if they are Frozen out of their domestic markets by US products.
Can you shoot down the F-35 at a ratio better than 1.0.

This is a war plane after all. Yes it's all nice to have that stuff you listed, but it better not be 100 billion in false confidence.

Why were not fighting against a f35 so why’s that a metric?


Nations will look after themselves first regardless of how “dire” your own situation is see the past two years for plenty of examples, so things on that list are not nice to haves they become essential.

Well it's the industry standard bench mark for 5th generation. It would have been very embarrassing/ a huge failure if the typhoon and rafale were outmatched by the F-16 now wouldn't it.

Anyways, I have no doubt of the importance of those things. I just care also about making sure the Plane can do its primary job.

The easiest way to fill all of the above and still make it capable is to merge ze programs.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by TheLoneRanger »

Canada should join the Tempest programme !

https://www.thestar.com/politics/2021/1 ... ments.html

Maybe BAe can do a 5th Gen version(drop in a variant of the avionics core of the latest Typhoon version - that was pitched for Finland ) and a 6th Gen version later with an upgrade path (with the fancy new engines, and the other stuff ).

Finland Typhoon proposal : https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... urofighter
Typhoon Large Wide Display - Finland - 2021.jpeg


Would be enough to entice Australia aswell as a development programme

( i suspect that Canada will go for the F-35 just like the Swiss did recently, imho now that it seems to be in better shape as a programme with a sizeable number inducted. There is no value in inducting a new platform into your airforce that is not stealth right now if you have the cash...
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by 2HeadsBetter »

There's a lot of talk of "situational awareness" in that video but I can't help thinking - how well can the pilot see the runway!

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Ron5 »

2HeadsBetter wrote: 26 Nov 2021, 18:21 There's a lot of talk of "situational awareness" in that video but I can't help thinking - how well can the pilot see the runway!
It will come up on the screen :D

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

That’s sounding promising! What’s the bet FX and Tempest end up looking very very similar

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Rolls Royce Press Release

Rolls-Royce has agreed to work with IHI Corporation to develop and deliver a future fighter engine demonstrator.

The engine demonstrator programme will be a critical step forward in enabling the two nations to develop their future fighter aircraft requirements, potentially securing hundreds of future jobs in the UK and Japan.

Work on the joint engine demonstrator will kickstart early next year, with the UK investing an initial £30 million in planning, digital designs and innovative manufacturing developments.

A further £200 million of UK funding is expected to go towards developing a full-scale demonstrator power system, supporting hundreds of highly skilled jobs, including many at Rolls-Royce’s Filton facility in Bristol.

Alex Zino, EVP Business Development and Future Programmes at Rolls-Royce Defence said:

“Across Rolls-Royce we have a longstanding and valued relationship with our customers and industry partners in Japan. The Industry teams in both UK and Japan bring complementary technologies that will drive cleaner, next generation power and propulsion for both nations future fighter requirements.

The joint engine demonstrator programme is an exciting opportunity to bring together some of the best combat air capabilities in the world and will also enable the development of innovative and critical technologies that will be fundamental to the future of the Defence aerospace industry.”

Rolls-Royce has a long and strong heritage of partnering in Japan through the development of technology, engineering and supply chain relationships since the 1960s. The company employs over 40 employees in the Kobe and Tokyo offices, and a further 5,000 Japanese work on Rolls-Royce programmes in our partner organisations.

The recent technology programmes conducted by Japanese government and Japanese industries, coupled with access to the technologies being developed in the UK Tempest programme will enable the development of a world-class next generation power and propulsion system.

Today’s announcement helps ensure Rolls-Royce enhances its world-class technology and capabilities and will lead to future UK prosperity. Technology development is key to Rolls-Royce’s competitiveness and future success, and we invest extensively in UK technology, accounting for approximately 3% of annual UK R&D investments. Rolls-Royce’s UK activities prior to COVID-19 represented 0.6% of UK GDP, or £12.1bn. More than 100,000 jobs across the UK are directly and indirectly supported by Rolls-Royce, bolstered by an annual spend of £2.8bn with over 2,300 UK suppliers. Rolls-Royce is a significant contributor to UK prosperity, accounting for around 2% on average of UK goods exports over the last three years.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Timmymagic »

A rather direct and refreshing statement...


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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by topman »

If it was upto him it might have a bit more weight.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by TheLoneRanger »

topman wrote: 22 Dec 2021, 14:44 If it was upto him it might have a bit more weight.
You are right - if left to Polticians - then the dream will be flushed down the toilet the first chance they get.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

TheLoneRanger wrote: 23 Dec 2021, 10:30
topman wrote: 22 Dec 2021, 14:44 If it was upto him it might have a bit more weight.
You are right - if left to Polticians - then the dream will be flushed down the toilet the first chance they get.
Given the state of anglo french relations that would be a “ Bold decision minister !”.

Frankly the way things are going I’d be surprised if MBDA stay together.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Timmymagic »

SD67 wrote: 23 Dec 2021, 18:43 Frankly the way things are going I’d be surprised if MBDA stay together.
There was talk a while ago of Leonardo selling its stake, with BAE in the prime position to buy it...would lead to BAE having a 62.5% stake...

Truth be told when you look at the product line-up, which despite the multinational nature of MBDA is still really a collection of national programmes, the cupboard looks rather bare on the French and Italian side...What new weapons there are are not really setting the world alight in terms of export sales (MMP for example is still only ordered or fielded by the French). Where there is a possibility of new weapons that may get sales they tend to be in co-operation, and heavily reliant, with the UK side (CAMM-ER, FCASW or Sea Venom). The rest of the weapons are old systems with limited customer bases, a couple of exquisite systems that haven't sold spectacularly (Aster and SAMP/T), no longer for sale or are at the end of their upgrade potential with other nations systems taking over in terms of sales (Exocet for example). Thats why I suspect FCASW will survive...the French part of MBDA really needs it...

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by TheLoneRanger »

SD67 wrote: 23 Dec 2021, 18:43
TheLoneRanger wrote: 23 Dec 2021, 10:30
topman wrote: 22 Dec 2021, 14:44 If it was upto him it might have a bit more weight.
You are right - if left to Polticians - then the dream will be flushed down the toilet the first chance they get.
Given the state of anglo french relations that would be a “ Bold decision minister !”.

Frankly the way things are going I’d be surprised if MBDA stay together.
That is the thing - the UK has massively subsidised manufacturing capabilities and technology transfer to the EU countries for very little in return as those goverments have not purchased many systems and have used their participation to try and own the IP and do all of the manufacturing. In short - defense equipment manufacturing in Europe is distorted and not working correctly because of both France and German actions.

The Tempest programme can help develop an entire ecosystem around military aviation in the UK where we own the intellectual property, manufacturing and then benefit from the larger number of systems that we in the UK procure.

You only have to look at the way BAe is working with the Turkish TFX programme and the Japanese F-X programme to show how the UK can form collaborative relationships which benefit all equally rather than the French/German we want it all approach.

The UK Goverment "may have turned" a corner and is starting to understand the value of funding and developing and finally owning intellectual property and the associated manufacturing capabilities of weapons systems so that we can export to those systems. We are seeing this in the naval programmes with a suite of ship and submarine manufacturing (though i wish we could nuture some like Damn Shipbuilding with its wide suite of products that it can manufacture rather than the cottage industry approach we have now - but maybe we will get there - if the likes of Babcock can step up and start to plan more strategically a product set like Damen.... ) and hopefully the Tempest programme will be the re-birth of a fighter jet programme in the UK that allows us to compete against the French and not have the baggage of the Germans...

The UK goverment must understand the relationship between "market efficiency - ie simply buying the cheapest" versus building military capability and having defence pounds contribute to technological development in the UK and therefore industrial and economic growth.

Something like the Tempest programme is a fantastic tool to train the next generation of high engineers...

I will stop "ranting" about this topic - i always get animated on this one... always..

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

Timmymagic wrote: 24 Dec 2021, 11:28
SD67 wrote: 23 Dec 2021, 18:43 Frankly the way things are going I’d be surprised if MBDA stay together.
There was talk a while ago of Leonardo selling its stake, with BAE in the prime position to buy it...would lead to BAE having a 62.5% stake...

Truth be told when you look at the product line-up, which despite the multinational nature of MBDA is still really a collection of national programmes, the cupboard looks rather bare on the French and Italian side...What new weapons there are are not really setting the world alight in terms of export sales (MMP for example is still only ordered or fielded by the French). Where there is a possibility of new weapons that may get sales they tend to be in co-operation, and heavily reliant, with the UK side (CAMM-ER, FCASW or Sea Venom). The rest of the weapons are old systems with limited customer bases, a couple of exquisite systems that haven't sold spectacularly (Aster and SAMP/T), no longer for sale or are at the end of their upgrade potential with other nations systems taking over in terms of sales (Exocet for example). Thats why I suspect FCASW will survive...the French part of MBDA really needs it...
I was thinking maybe bringing Japan into MBDA buying out the french as part of the broader Tempest collaboration

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Timmymagic »

SD67 wrote: 24 Dec 2021, 14:05 I was thinking maybe bringing Japan into MBDA buying out the french as part of the broader Tempest collaboration
They wouldn't be interested, Japan still has issues around exporting military gear (not just legislative, their kit is usually uncompetitive on price). But the French also see their MBDA stake as a vital national interest. Airbus France would not be allowed to sell to anyone apart from Dassault or Thales. They had conniptions when Leonardo were looking to sell...but it doesn't change the fact that MBDA France badly needs some new merchandise to flog. Personally I think MMP will sell eventually (I think the UK may actually buy it), but its got off to a very slow start. Aster developments are mainly for France and Italy at the mo, comparatively small sales elsewhere, SAMP/T has not sold well, despite the global market for SAM's picking up.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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The MBDA setup has developed some very gd programs like aster, meteor, caam, storm shadow we should be encouraging more co operation on such things not less.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

If MBDA is real then the UK should be buying MMP and France CAMM and Brimstone.

I question the whole Euro defence concept in anything after than armoured vehicles. Central and eastern europe are buying F35s, Blackhawks and Patriot SAMs.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SW1 »

Each nation does not need to buy everything produced, it’s about creating centres of excellence for the various parts of the product and national assembly lines. Spreading the cost of sub system development.

CAMM is purchased by Italy and the U.K. France, Italy and the U.K. all operate Aster.

U.K. France, Germany all operate versions of stormshadow.

U.K. France Germany Italy and Spain all operate meteor.

I believe the U.K. produced some bit of the mmp missile at the mbda sites in the U.K.

Standing on your own too feet defence wise does not mean buy US in the hope that buys there continued interest in the region.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

Neither should it mean pointlessly replicating capabilities that are already available off the shelf, to meet a political objective of “European Sovereign Capability”.
How many countries in Europe operate Patriot or Standard SMx vs Aster and SAMP?

MBDA needs to decide whether it’s a real business or a political vehicle.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SW1 »

SD67 wrote: 24 Dec 2021, 17:31 Neither should it mean pointlessly replicating capabilities that are already available off the shelf, to meet a political objective of “European Sovereign Capability”.
How many countries in Europe operate Patriot or Standard SMx vs Aster and SAMP?

MBDA needs to decide whether it’s a real business or a political vehicle.
3 years ago people would of said the same about ppe and vaccines….

Security of supply with expendables in particular should be priority 1m because when everyone needs them at the same time your back of the queue if your buying from America.

MBDA sell weapons across the world.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Gtal »

Hilarious. Italy and the UK are literally making contradictory public statements.
Where are the articles à la "Tempest future in doubt..." ?
You know.. like those around FCAS? Those didn't even have any factual substance, while here we have explicit fundamental disagreement about what the goal of this cooperation is to be!

And of course Italy just made up with France and signed a major treaty with them.

I'd be not at all surprised to see Italy drop out of Tempest at some point and maybe do some sort of cross-program deal with Germany and France actually.
Playing an enhanced role in the EU has so much more potential side benefits and would be almost a natural fit as the 3rd largest country now and one of the oldest members too..

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Defiance »

SW1 wrote: 24 Dec 2021, 15:50 The MBDA setup has developed some very gd programs like aster, meteor, caam, storm shadow we should be encouraging more co operation on such things not less.
Very much agree here. MBDA is a useful organisation to pursue both national developments as well as international ones.

Does it have some issues? Sure, but they're capable of pulling off some absolute belters.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

Gtal wrote: 25 Dec 2021, 07:33 Hilarious. Italy and the UK are literally making contradictory public statements.
Where are the articles à la "Tempest future in doubt..." ?
You know.. like those around FCAS? Those didn't even have any factual substance, while here we have explicit fundamental disagreement about what the goal of this cooperation is to be!

And of course Italy just made up with France and signed a major treaty with them.

I'd be not at all surprised to see Italy drop out of Tempest at some point and maybe do some sort of cross-program deal with Germany and France actually.
Playing an enhanced role in the EU has so much more potential side benefits and would be almost a natural fit as the 3rd largest country now and one of the oldest members too..
Yes indeed, hilarious. Italy should tie up with the mighty German military who are not allowed to buy the JSF, with a Green Foreign Minister and increasing dependence on Russian Gas. I promise not to mention the broomsticks.

Just out of interest, how much has actually been spent on FCAS? From what I read it's in the tens of millions, ie a plastic model and a brochure.

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