Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
inch
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

Anyone but tempest in my view ,if they went with USA so be it ,no probs on my part France ,or s Korea , turkey , ,India even just not tempest 👍
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Defiance »

Meriv9 wrote: 03 Feb 2022, 20:41
You really think the US would waste a chance to divide et impera?

Do we(both Tempest and FCAS) really want to gift the US an industrial beachhead on the continent? It is already bad that all east-Europe is in excessive US sphere of influence.
The issue with the US (USAF specifically) is they're looking at China and the enormous distances of the Pacific. If they thought Raptor was unexportable this'll be the same but worse, both tech wise and sheer $$$.

The USN might be a different story as they lean towards using stand-off munitions and not so much on stealth

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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German journalist on Twitter saying they’re buying F35, public announcement imminent

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SW1 »

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-a ... jet-sensor

Partners will acquire cutting-edge sensor technology to detect lethal threats
75 UK jobs to be created, including 40 engineering jobs in Scotland
Part of UK’s Combat Air Strategy, backed by £2 billion of funding during the next four years
The universal radio frequency sensor technology, known as “JAGUAR”, could enable the Armed Forces to better detect future threats from air, land and sea, quickly and accurately locating targets and denying surveillance technology operated by our adversaries.

With joint work on the project scheduled to start in April, JAGUAR is expected to create 75 jobs across the UK, including 40 highly skilled engineering jobs at Leonardo’s Edinburgh site.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SD67 wrote: 13 Feb 2022, 17:36 German journalist on Twitter saying they’re buying F35, public announcement imminent
Popped the speculation, from BILD, over in the German Armed Forces thread. Speculation is 35-40 F-35A for the nuclear mission...which will mean more Typhoon ordered to replace remaining Tornado and (possibly) revival of the Typhoon ECR. BAE will be happy as Larry...they get part of the F-35 order, political issues with their competitor, and a big chunk of any Typhoon orders....plus the German's need to pay for all that Centurion etc. work, with the potential of payments around Radar 2 and Spear/Spear-EW integration. Potential good news for Leonardo as well...ECR has Radar 2, and you have to wonder if the German's order additional standard Typhoon,on top of Quadriga, if they will have Radar 2 or 1...
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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delete me sir (?)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by TheLoneRanger »

Timmymagic wrote: 15 Feb 2022, 13:01
This is why I firmly believe that the Tempest will be a better platform than the FCAS of the EU. The ability of the UK and the British to make good partnerships that benefit all - rather than the EU approach of wanting to have it all and control everything and then ultimately failing ..

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Defiance »

Couple of extra little nuggets about this from DefenseNews

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... se-agenda/

Confirmed (as expected) that Leonardo UK are the UK-lead in this, so that's three next generation radar programs that Leonardo UK are working on - Radar 2, Tempest and JAGUAR. Tempest sensor work will probably use JAGUAR developments, or even fully merge, at a later date. For now however, they are likely seperate efforts.

Spits on the dumb idea that Leonardo bought that share of Hensoldt because the UK program was a dead-end. As far as the UK arm is concerned they've probably got more work than they can handle.

It's also been confirmed that two technology demonstrators will be built with a set to go to each of the partners. I suspect it might end up on the 757 at some point if the JAGUAR effort becomes more harmonised with Tempest.

Good stuff all around
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Timmymagic »

Defiance wrote: 15 Feb 2022, 20:27 Spits on the dumb idea that Leonardo bought that share of Hensoldt because the UK program was a dead-end.
It was always a weird view considering that Airbus' Typhoon ECR proposal had Radar 2 instead of Radar 1. A tacit admission that Radar 2 was seen as far superior.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Defiance »

Timmymagic wrote: 15 Feb 2022, 22:34
Defiance wrote: 15 Feb 2022, 20:27 Spits on the dumb idea that Leonardo bought that share of Hensoldt because the UK program was a dead-end.
It was always a weird view considering that Airbus' Typhoon ECR proposal had Radar 2 instead of Radar 1. A tacit admission that Radar 2 was seen as far superior.
Indeed. Tempest is fortunate in that all of the main partners are in a position to let Leonardo lead the RF sensor effort.
  • UK - Leonardo leads Radar 2 development
  • Sweden - They already use a Leonardo RF product on Gripen E/F
  • Italy - Home of Leonardo. Ground on workshare in this arena is likely already being broken in spirit with Italy selecting Radar 2 for their Typhoon fleet
Tack on to this the potential technology and cost sharing with Japan, I think one of the more expensive areas of fighter development look pretty hopeful for Tempest.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

Looking good going forward ,think the French will end up going it alone ,they can do it and after all the eventual success of Rafale sales worldwide after nothing

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by jimthelad »

Rafale nearly bankrupted both Snecma and Dassault. Both needed large bail-outs from the French government which wouldn't be allowed under EU rules now.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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inch wrote: 17 Feb 2022, 10:34 Looking good going forward ,think the French will end up going it alone ,they can do it and after all the eventual success of Rafale sales worldwide after nothing
I have to wonder how much those sales have cost the French...
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

Not sure I'm asking in right thread but how have them sales cost the French ,must be about 120ish sales just lately maybe more

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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inch wrote: 17 Feb 2022, 13:20 Not sure I'm asking in right thread but how have them sales cost the French ,must be about 120ish sales just lately maybe more
The theory is that lots of these sales have been supported by French finance with very generous loan repayment options. In effect, the French state will be paying for them, with the purchasing nations repaying over 10-15 years.

I suspect it's the sort of thing that happens all the time, but the question is how long is the repayment term and how low is the interest rate.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by dmereifield »

Defiance wrote: 17 Feb 2022, 13:28
inch wrote: 17 Feb 2022, 13:20 Not sure I'm asking in right thread but how have them sales cost the French ,must be about 120ish sales just lately maybe more
The theory is that lots of these sales have been supported by French finance with very generous loan repayment options. In effect, the French state will be paying for them, with the purchasing nations repaying over 10-15 years.

I suspect it's the sort of thing that happens all the time, but the question is how long is the repayment term and how low is the interest rate.
The UK is just starting to catch on to this trick with its support for Ukraine. Except, they don't ensure all the home country Plc benefits like the French do, with just 1-2 ships being built in the UK and the remainder in Ukraine.
The French would have had all 8 hulls built in France

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SW1 »

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... an-tempest

Discussions between Japan and the United Kingdom concerning the development of Japan’s next-generation F-X fighter have been ongoing for five years. During that period, Japan has moved away from early plans to procure a derivative of an existing foreign-designed aircraft or to simply join an existing fighter program, and instead has opted to develop an indigenous fighter from scratch, albeit with input from allied nations. It arrived at the decision following successful trials of the indigenously-developed X-2 technology demonstrator.

The two countries launched a joint research project studying beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile technology in 2014, for example. The UK provided some missile technologies from MBDA’s Meteor long-range missile, while Japan integrated advanced radio-frequency (RF) seeker technologies developed for the AAM-4B missile by the Mitsubishi Electric Corporation. The Joint New Air-to-Air Missile (JNAAM) program transitioned into a technology demonstrator project in Fiscal Year 2018, and trial production of a prototype began. The partners expect to complete the project during FY 2022, after which they will evaluate the performance of the missile and decide whether it should be put into mass production.

In late December, Japan and the UK confirmed their intention to proceed with a joint engine demonstrator program, which was due to begin in January 2022. Intended to produce an all-new, full-scale power and propulsion demonstrator, the program would use complementary technologies developed by Rolls-Royce and IHI Corporation. The engine will be an advanced turbofan at the heart of the F-X aircraft’s propulsion, power, and thermal management systems.

Subsequently, the Japanese government announced that it had arranged for UK participation not only in the engine but also in the design of “relatable parts of the aircraft.” The cost-ineffectiveness to use a Japanese-designed center fuselage containing intakes and jetpipes with Tempest's engine meant it would be “more rational to develop it together with the engine." Therefore, both aircraft could share the same engine and similar fuselage sections, reducing development costs.

At the same time, the two nations agreed a memorandum of cooperation that will allow them to pursue further joint technologies, and they agreed to explore the feasibility of further collaboration throughout 2022. The UK and Japan hope to extend the partnership beyond engine technologies to the development of new electronic warfare and radar equipment while designing both the program and the aircraft in a way that each participating country will have full “freedom of modification,” thereby ensuring that any resulting aircraft can be customized to meet national requirements.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

Think tempest is going to end up an absolutely top notch program ,and fingers crossed a match for other up and coming 6 th gen programs around the world ie euro (fcas) , Chinese and russian offerings cos at the end of the day it needs to be

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by wargame_insomniac »

This collaboration between UK and Japan seems hopefully great news as development of future generation of jet fighter aircraft becomes ever more expensive. We seem to be benefitiing from each countries scientific strengths and to be able to share the costs of certain key components in common to the two programmes, whilst not being retricted by each country having differing requirements, which has adversely affected previous European collaborations.

I hope that UK's recent renewed focus on the indo-Pacific can lead to greater collaborations on weapon programmes with the likes of Japan and maybe South Korea.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Lord Jim »

Japan is a top tier nation when it comes to aircraft electronics, especially radar. Remember the F2 was the first combat aircraft to enter service with a AESA radar, one Japan developed by itself. Adding this knowledge base to the TEMPEST programme can only be a good this as could possible improvements to teh Seeker on Meteor making a world beating weapon even better. Japan will gain considerable knowledge of powerplants by teaming with Rolls Royce on the cutting edge engine being developed for TEMPEST.

If everything comes together as planned, TEMPEST is gong to be a world beating System of systems, a worthy successor to Typhoon and in all likelihood an export success, especially if the US doesn't allow the export of its next generation fighter currently in development. The key requirement set out for the programme in my eyes is the aim to make the aircraft affordable, breaking the upward spiral of costs that has going on for decades. This should allow the RAF to at least replace the Typhoons one for one or even increase the size of the front line aircraft strength. One can only hope.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

dmereifield wrote: 17 Feb 2022, 16:07
Defiance wrote: 17 Feb 2022, 13:28
inch wrote: 17 Feb 2022, 13:20 Not sure I'm asking in right thread but how have them sales cost the French ,must be about 120ish sales just lately maybe more
The theory is that lots of these sales have been supported by French finance with very generous loan repayment options. In effect, the French state will be paying for them, with the purchasing nations repaying over 10-15 years.

I suspect it's the sort of thing that happens all the time, but the question is how long is the repayment term and how low is the interest rate.
The UK is just starting to catch on to this trick with its support for Ukraine. Except, they don't ensure all the home country Plc benefits like the French do, with just 1-2 ships being built in the UK and the remainder in Ukraine.
The French would have had all 8 hulls built in France
And this is one of the great flaws in Typhoon - they could never do this sort of deal because who offers the finance? Which partner nation? They don't even know each other's cost.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Ares »

Shortly after the JNAAM project was announced, I have been expecting cooperation on the next generation fighter between the two nations also be happening as well. In a matter of fact, that's the reason why I signed up on this site. :p
I'd say this is just the beginning, F-X and Tempest's collaboration will only deepen further throughout this year.

So far, Japan has vaguely conducted various basic researches on the future fighter but lacked the know-how, vision, and goals. The UK's radical yet solid and visionary ideas on the next-generation fighter and its know-how in cutting-edge technologies will make up for our weaknesses and allow us to take advantage of the most advanced technologies while reducing risks and costs.

Without UK's help, we would never have been able to build an advanced AAM that meets our requirements for F-35(due to the restriction for being a non-JSF partner). Also, without the UK, we would have been forced to adopt an expensive F-22/F-35 hybrid fighter that is sure to become obsolete in the 2030s by the US pressures. So, in my opinion, UK's presence is a godsend for us.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Timmymagic »

SD67 wrote: 18 Feb 2022, 09:17 And this is one of the great flaws in Typhoon - they could never do this sort of deal because who offers the finance? Which partner nation? They don't even know each other's cost.
It's not as much as you think, each partner nation had a sales territory, they take the lead in that area, so in the case of Oman, for example, it would be the UK or BAE who would offer finance. The problem is that both Spain and Germany utterly failed in their sales territories, it would have been better if the Uk or Italy had had responsibility for overseas sales.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

Timmymagic wrote: 18 Feb 2022, 10:18
SD67 wrote: 18 Feb 2022, 09:17 And this is one of the great flaws in Typhoon - they could never do this sort of deal because who offers the finance? Which partner nation? They don't even know each other's cost.
It's not as much as you think, each partner nation had a sales territory, they take the lead in that area, so in the case of Oman, for example, it would be the UK or BAE who would offer finance. The problem is that both Spain and Germany utterly failed in their sales territories, it would have been better if the Uk or Italy had had responsibility for overseas sales.
Agree, I'm making a slightly different point :
When BAE is bidding for, say Oman, they never knew what their true bottom line cost was because they're only making a third of the aircraft. Airbus don't tell BAE their real costs - they say "we can supply our bit for X" but no-one really knew how much profit margin the other partner was making. Eurofighter GMBH is just a shell company it owns no assets. The head of Leonardo described this in the press - before each bid the Eurofighter partners sit down and it's like a poker game - noone wants to show their cards and they each hope the other guy will be the first to blink ie take a price cut

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