Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
Meriv9
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Meriv9 »

Turkey is part of the game in the middle east

Turks vs Arabs vs Persians(Iran)
They are still Sunni vs Shia vs Sionism.
Etc.. etc..

So buying from them is buying from a competitor and it is way less safe than buying from an European that is more "independent" in respect of their games.

I think no one safe in mind would buy Tejas.

The big risk are the Koreans, luckily we sold Poland the M346 or i would have bet right now they would go the korean route.

For that reason we need a Griphen with Tempest tech to fend off the F-35 and the KF-21

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Little J »

The only additional countries to order would surely be F-15 operators (given the size of the Tempest). And they would more than likely just buy from the Yanks again wouldn't they?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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And the chinese. We are going towards a multipolar world.

We could get a good hold in South America. Between Italians and Swedish in Brasil and your historic influence on the Chilean.

Lets remember that in 20 years from now their economies will have grown substantially.

But the objective isn't beating the Yanks or the Chinese, it is beating the SCAF, because if we do the next round(7th) Germans and French will be buying our tech... we dont need to run faster than the bear just faster than them. And to beat them in my opinion we need to aim to make less errors possible more than create a marvelous product, a defensive strategy to keep the tech gap in our favor.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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The problem is Eurofighter was a consortium not a company, too many duplicated functions and no one knew what the other partners costs were. You cannot go in hard on price if you don’t know your bottom line. And How on earth Germany were ever allowed to lead a sales pitch to India I have no idea . With a green foreign minister lecturing them about human rights. Then vetoing sales to the Saudis

IMHO Typhoon could and should have sold at least an extra 50 to the Saudis and 100+ to India with local assembly as a SU27 replacement plus probably UAE. But they were too late with AESA and I suspect too clean with their marketing campaigns

Turkey are doing a great job with drones I could imagine them producing a decent F16 replacement, could be attractive anyone who’s not allowed the F35

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SW1 wrote: 18 Feb 2023, 16:27
Spitfire9 wrote: 18 Feb 2023, 12:41
SW1 wrote: 18 Feb 2023, 11:21
Spitfire9 wrote: 18 Feb 2023, 11:02 I think that the best chance for GCAP to be successful (customers placing large orders) involves roping in countries with a need to place large orders for such an aircraft. Japan, UK, Italy may order 300-500 between them, subject to cost. What other countries with aerospace industries and a future need for very advanced aircraft could be tempted to join the programme (a) to increase production numbers (b) offering lower production costs than Japanese, British, Italian production costs?

I would like GCAP to give itself the best chance of being ordered in numbers by avoiding exceedingly high costs as per Eurofighter. In the last 20 years where countries invited tenders for fighters from LM, Boeing, Dassault, SAAB and Eurofighter, the only manufacturer to fail to secure a single order was Eurofighter IIRC. Let's not repeat the process with GCAP.
There is 9 countries operating eurofighter and around 600 manufactured so far, sound pretty good to me for a non US operated aircraft.
Yes but that does not make it competitive. If you want a product to sell loads in a free market, you do your best to make it competitive. Supplying customers who mostly have a history of buying from you for political reasons is not the same as your product winning orders away from the competition due to its merits.

I don't want to see a repetition of F-22 or B-2 happen here in the UK. They became so expensive that the US decided its flagship products were unaffordable and curtailed its orders. Japan may be prepared to pay an extremely high price for a very advanced fighter (due to China threat) but I am not convinced UK govt will be prepared to do that if costs spiral. In any event GCAP has not progressed to the point where it is actually going ahead. UK may baulk at the cost and buy F-35 instead. IMO the best chance of avoiding that is to make projected GCAP production efficient.

I see another danger on the horizon: 5G projects like Turkey's TF-X and India's AMCA may end up offering 5G+ capabilities at a fraction of the price of 6G GCAP. If GCAP becomes too expensive, some of our traditional export customers may opt to buy TF-X, for example, to replace their Eurofighters. I think that UK may have a fight on its hands to maintain orders from its ME customers due to the advent of a Muslim 5G manufacturer.
I what way do mean competitive? People don’t buy fighters based on performance or price. Politics is king.

And what do mean by efficient production? I assume you think current production is inefficient?

I would love to know where all there additional orders people think would have appeared from. Very few buying into the heavy fighter market.
Cost V capability is entirely market dependent really.

Japan require a long range multi role platform capable of taking on and dominating Chinese developments of the J20/J31 and deep strike missions.

The RAF wants a similar large and capable machine.

It might end up being too large and overspecified for the general market, we will see.

It certainly won't be cheap.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Little J wrote: 18 Feb 2023, 17:01 The only additional countries to order would surely be F-15 operators (given the size of the Tempest). And they would more than likely just buy from the Yanks again wouldn't they?
I think a little place called India would have bought 126 ten years ago if the price had been lower. India was obliged to buy the lowest cost MRCA that met performance requirements. Eurofighter did. Rafale did. Rafale was lower cost.

With the chaos that reigns in Indian procurement, I think that further numbers would have been procured. Say 150-200 in total for India to make up for delays in Indian fighter programmes.

Brazil was a definite prospect for 50+
Turkey, too, I think.

Also, lack of AESA meant some countries in the market would not even consider Eurofighter IIRC.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SW1 »

mrclark303 wrote: 18 Feb 2023, 18:32
SW1 wrote: 18 Feb 2023, 16:27
Spitfire9 wrote: 18 Feb 2023, 12:41
SW1 wrote: 18 Feb 2023, 11:21
Spitfire9 wrote: 18 Feb 2023, 11:02 I think that the best chance for GCAP to be successful (customers placing large orders) involves roping in countries with a need to place large orders for such an aircraft. Japan, UK, Italy may order 300-500 between them, subject to cost. What other countries with aerospace industries and a future need for very advanced aircraft could be tempted to join the programme (a) to increase production numbers (b) offering lower production costs than Japanese, British, Italian production costs?

I would like GCAP to give itself the best chance of being ordered in numbers by avoiding exceedingly high costs as per Eurofighter. In the last 20 years where countries invited tenders for fighters from LM, Boeing, Dassault, SAAB and Eurofighter, the only manufacturer to fail to secure a single order was Eurofighter IIRC. Let's not repeat the process with GCAP.
There is 9 countries operating eurofighter and around 600 manufactured so far, sound pretty good to me for a non US operated aircraft.
Yes but that does not make it competitive. If you want a product to sell loads in a free market, you do your best to make it competitive. Supplying customers who mostly have a history of buying from you for political reasons is not the same as your product winning orders away from the competition due to its merits.

I don't want to see a repetition of F-22 or B-2 happen here in the UK. They became so expensive that the US decided its flagship products were unaffordable and curtailed its orders. Japan may be prepared to pay an extremely high price for a very advanced fighter (due to China threat) but I am not convinced UK govt will be prepared to do that if costs spiral. In any event GCAP has not progressed to the point where it is actually going ahead. UK may baulk at the cost and buy F-35 instead. IMO the best chance of avoiding that is to make projected GCAP production efficient.

I see another danger on the horizon: 5G projects like Turkey's TF-X and India's AMCA may end up offering 5G+ capabilities at a fraction of the price of 6G GCAP. If GCAP becomes too expensive, some of our traditional export customers may opt to buy TF-X, for example, to replace their Eurofighters. I think that UK may have a fight on its hands to maintain orders from its ME customers due to the advent of a Muslim 5G manufacturer.
I what way do mean competitive? People don’t buy fighters based on performance or price. Politics is king.

And what do mean by efficient production? I assume you think current production is inefficient?

I would love to know where all there additional orders people think would have appeared from. Very few buying into the heavy fighter market.
Cost V capability is entirely market dependent really.

Japan require a long range multi role platform capable of taking on and dominating Chinese developments of the J20/J31 and deep strike missions.

The RAF wants a similar large and capable machine.

It might end up being too large and overspecified for the general market, we will see.

It certainly won't be cheap.
Cost is to an extent weight related as it will generally be related to a 1 or 2 engine option but that requirement has already been set.

Purchase cost will ultimately be related to sensors, there is a number of aircraft we have purchased over the years where then sensor has cost multiples of the purchase price of the aircraft.

But the biggest cost thru life costs and integration will be dependent on providing more realistic design points on the airframe than has hither too been the case.


You aren’t doing deep strike missions against China or anyone else with manned fighters.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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mrclark303 wrote: 18 Feb 2023, 14:10
I think Turkey could potentially produce a capable product, they do seem to naturally good engineers.

Their domestically assembled F16's are said to be the most reliable and best assembled of the breed apparently.

As for India, no chance, HAL work in such a chaotic haphazard way they couldn't find their own arses with both hands!

No chance....
I agree that the prospects of India succeeding with any fighter programme are poor to almost non-existent.

LCA (Tejas Mk1) project: design failed to meet requirements, requirements amended downwards to meet design. Intended as a replacement for hundreds of MiG-21 from mid-1990's. 32 of 40 ordered delivered so far. Currently about 25 years behind original schedule.

Tejas Mk1A project: 73 revised design LCA with 43 improvements to be delivered starting 2024. Currently no delays in schedule reported.

Tejas Mk2 project: designed to improve performance over Mk1A. Longer range, greater payload plus other enhancements. Should have gone into production before 2020. Currently 10+ years behind schedule.

AMCA project: design first revealed 2009. Given the failure of the indigenous Kaveri engine project - abandoned about 10 years ago - no suitable 110kN engine is available for AMCA. First 40 Mk1 aircraft to be powered by GE F414 98kN engines. Project awaiting go ahead to prototype and testing stage. First flight can be expected 2028/2029, testing completion 2032/2033. First deliveries to IAF 2035?

I cannot see AMCA Mk2 with 110kN-125kN engine developed with a major OEM being available pre-2040 (if ever). I can see the project stopping with Mk1 and India looking for a 6G fighter instead.

For that reason I think it would be useful to recruit India into the GCAP programme. Only a token involvement - but since the Indian government historically has been deeply reluctant to invest in its MIC, one can expect it would only be prepared to make a very small investment in GCAP. For example, total spending over 20ish years on developing a jet engine (from scratch) to power Indian-designed fighters was something between $250 million and $500 million ie around $12.5 million to $25 million a year. That for a project of national strategic importance and pride! I do not believe India will invest - at the very minimum - $5 billion in co-development of a 110kN-125kN engine suitable for AMCA Mk2, so I doubt there will ever be a viable AMCA with an 'Indian' engine.

Face is important in the east. If AMCA were sidelined but India had some involvement in GCAP, India could focus its PR on how its invaluable contribution to GCAP was pushing the project forward - and order some.

PS IAF has about 250 Su-30MKI. AMCA was intended to replace these, so total orders for GCAP could be substantial.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Spitfire9 wrote: 19 Feb 2023, 10:17
mrclark303 wrote: 18 Feb 2023, 14:10
I think Turkey could potentially produce a capable product, they do seem to naturally good engineers.

Their domestically assembled F16's are said to be the most reliable and best assembled of the breed apparently.

As for India, no chance, HAL work in such a chaotic haphazard way they couldn't find their own arses with both hands!

No chance....
I agree that the prospects of India succeeding with any fighter programme are poor to almost non-existent.

LCA (Tejas Mk1) project: design failed to meet requirements, requirements amended downwards to meet design. Intended as a replacement for hundreds of MiG-21 from mid-1990's. 32 of 40 ordered delivered so far. Currently about 25 years behind original schedule.

Tejas Mk1A project: 73 revised design LCA with 43 improvements to be delivered starting 2024. Currently no delays in schedule reported.

Tejas Mk2 project: designed to improve performance over Mk1A. Longer range, greater payload plus other enhancements. Should have gone into production before 2020. Currently 10+ years behind schedule.

AMCA project: design first revealed 2009. Given the failure of the indigenous Kaveri engine project - abandoned about 10 years ago - no suitable 110kN engine is available for AMCA. First 40 Mk1 aircraft to be powered by GE F414 98kN engines. Project awaiting go ahead to prototype and testing stage. First flight can be expected 2028/2029, testing completion 2032/2033. First deliveries to IAF 2035?

I cannot see AMCA Mk2 with 110kN-125kN engine developed with a major OEM being available pre-2040 (if ever). I can see the project stopping with Mk1 and India looking for a 6G fighter instead.

For that reason I think it would be useful to recruit India into the GCAP programme. Only a token involvement - but since the Indian government historically has been deeply reluctant to invest in its MIC, one can expect it would only be prepared to make a very small investment in GCAP. For example, total spending over 20ish years on developing a jet engine (from scratch) to power Indian-designed fighters was something between $250 million and $500 million ie around $12.5 million to $25 million a year. That for a project of national strategic importance and pride! I do not believe India will invest - at the very minimum - $5 billion in co-development of a 110kN-125kN engine suitable for AMCA Mk2, so I doubt there will ever be a viable AMCA with an 'Indian' engine.

Face is important in the east. If AMCA were sidelined but India had some involvement in GCAP, India could focus its PR on how its invaluable contribution to GCAP was pushing the project forward - and order some.

PS IAF has about 250 Su-30MKI. AMCA was intended to replace these, so total orders for GCAP could be substantial.
I totally agree that India would be a potentially good client for Tempest, my big issue would be I wouldn't trust them with the technology unfortunately.

As a non aligned fence sitter and operating in a seemingly permanent state of chaotic governance ( he said tongue in cheek, with the state of the UK these days) they change loyalties at the drop of hat to suit the prevailing national interest on that particular day.

if Moscow offered a preferential deal on gas and oil by example for sticky beak access, I wouldn't put it past them to let the Russians examine the technology.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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India no chance, leave them to the french in my view,or french/Germans depending how it goes
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Just for context

https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Trade/I ... resistance

Commerce Ministry data shows imports from Russia have surged nearly 400% so far this fiscal year, fueled by purchases of discounted crude oil.

Russia was India's No. 4 "merchandise import source nation" in the first 10 months of the current fiscal year through March, after China, the United Arab Emirates and the U.S. The total value of Russian imports came to $37.31 billion, up from $7.71 billion in the same period of the previous year, according to the latest trade figures revealed on Wednesday. This translates to growth of 384%, with Russia accounting for a 6.2% share of the South Asian country's total imports during the period.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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mrclark303 wrote: 19 Feb 2023, 12:11 I totally agree that India would be a potentially good client for Tempest, my big issue would be I wouldn't trust them with the technology unfortunately.

As a non aligned fence sitter and operating in a seemingly permanent state of chaotic governance ( he said tongue in cheek, with the state of the UK these days) they change loyalties at the drop of hat to suit the prevailing national interest on that particular day.

if Moscow offered a preferential deal on gas and oil by example for sticky beak access, I wouldn't put it past them to let the Russians examine the technology.
I think IAF had an exercise with Russia recently (or one is due soon). [CORRECTION: recent exercise was with Japan] Do you think that Dassault's secrets are at risk? I have no idea but I think that France must have a very good idea.
inch wrote: 19 Feb 2023, 12:31 India no chance, leave them to the french in my view,or french/Germans depending how it goes
Let them buy FCAS then if AMCA does not work out. I am sure an order from India would be welcomed. Possibly even an assembly line in India if numbers were high enough.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Personal guesstimate based on thumb in the air is that Dassault will balk at setting up a fully fledged production line in India, including the required long term commitment to TT. It’s not something they’ve really done before unless you count the blueprints for the mirage 3 that were “accidentally” handed to Mossad agents in Switzerland.

I understand the competition to help design the engine for AMCA is GE vs Rolls.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SD67 wrote: 19 Feb 2023, 13:31 Personal guesstimate based on thumb in the air is that Dassault will balk at setting up a fully fledged production line in India, including the required long term commitment to TT. It’s not something they’ve really done before unless you count the blueprints for the mirage 3 that were “accidentally” handed to Mossad agents in Switzerland.

I understand the competition to help design the engine for AMCA is GE vs Rolls.
Dassault was selected to supply Rafale as winner of the MMRCA competition. The deal for 126 aircraft included setting up an assembly line. Story is that the deal came to grief (in 2014, I think) over HAL asking that Dassault be responsible for the quality of the product coming off the line even though HAL would be doing the assembly. Dassault refused and the deal fell through. 2 years later India ordered 36 Rafale to be manufactured in France. By the time FCAS is available India may have moved on from feeding all fighter construction business to a state-owned monopoly (HAL). A private sector company would, I think, be far more business-like than HAL.

Again, with regards to co-developing a fast jet engine, talks have been going on for several years with SAFRAN, GE and RR and may continue for many more years. I suspect that India wants full ToT (which no government may perhaps allow) and probably wants to pay peanuts for it. Could be good for RR and SAFRAN since India might end up running out of time and have to simply buy engines for AMCA Mk2. Who knows, perhaps the Tempest or FCAS engine would be usable (or a version derated to 120kN or so). The other obvious possibility would be to pay GE to develop their 115kN F414 EPE design - offered for Super Hornet but not taken up. Dressed up as a co-developed engine (for internal Indian PR purposes), it would likely cost more like $3 billion than the $6 billion to $7 billion RR and SAFRAN are asking to co-develop an engine for AMCA Mk2. Problem with GE would be ITAR, though.

Apologies for all the hypothetical stuff about India but trying to keep it in the context of possible orders for Tempest programme elements.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

Spitfire9 wrote: 19 Feb 2023, 12:50
mrclark303 wrote: 19 Feb 2023, 12:11 I totally agree that India would be a potentially good client for Tempest, my big issue would be I wouldn't trust them with the technology unfortunately.

As a non aligned fence sitter and operating in a seemingly permanent state of chaotic governance ( he said tongue in cheek, with the state of the UK these days) they change loyalties at the drop of hat to suit the prevailing national interest on that particular day.

if Moscow offered a preferential deal on gas and oil by example for sticky beak access, I wouldn't put it past them to let the Russians examine the technology.
I think IAF had an exercise with Russia recently (or one is due soon). [CORRECTION: recent exercise was with Japan] Do you think that Dassault's secrets are at risk? I have no idea but I think that France must have a very good idea.
inch wrote: 19 Feb 2023, 12:31 India no chance, leave them to the french in my view,or french/Germans depending how it goes
Let them buy FCAS then if AMCA does not work out. I am sure an order from India would be welcomed. Possibly even an assembly line in India if numbers were high enough.
I can live with that ,as long as it's not GCAP ,

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Spitfire9 wrote: 19 Feb 2023, 14:31
Dassault was selected to supply Rafale as winner of the MMRCA competition. The deal for 126 aircraft included setting up an assembly line. Story is that the deal came to grief (in 2014, I think) over HAL asking that Dassault be responsible for the quality of the product coming off the line even though HAL would be doing the assembly.
Yeah I know that’s the press release but I don’t buy it - how difficult is it to inject some quality inspectors, sed a hundred Dassault staff to the new facility. It’s likely what BAe will end up doing with TF-X in Turkey and also with the Canadian build of T26. A support and KT contract.

I just don’t think the French are serious about indigenisation - witness the Aussie subs debacle. I may be language - all the tech manuals that’d need to be translated into English. Also in my experience the way they do business is very centralised the guy on the ground in Hyderabad or wherever will not be empowered to make decisions on his own.

Getting back to Tempest probably the best scenario is India mess around with AMCA for a decade or so then take a license to build a de-rated GCAP, strip out the ultra sensitive systems

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Spitfire9 wrote: 19 Feb 2023, 12:50
mrclark303 wrote: 19 Feb 2023, 12:11 I totally agree that India would be a potentially good client for Tempest, my big issue would be I wouldn't trust them with the technology unfortunately.

As a non aligned fence sitter and operating in a seemingly permanent state of chaotic governance ( he said tongue in cheek, with the state of the UK these days) they change loyalties at the drop of hat to suit the prevailing national interest on that particular day.

if Moscow offered a preferential deal on gas and oil by example for sticky beak access, I wouldn't put it past them to let the Russians examine the technology.
I think IAF had an exercise with Russia recently (or one is due soon). [CORRECTION: recent exercise was with Japan] Do you think that Dassault's secrets are at risk? I have no idea but I think that France must have a very good idea.
inch wrote: 19 Feb 2023, 12:31 India no chance, leave them to the french in my view,or french/Germans depending how it goes
Let them buy FCAS then if AMCA does not work out. I am sure an order from India would be welcomed. Possibly even an assembly line in India if numbers were high enough.
I would put good money on Russian test pilots and engineers have already flown and had a really good look at their Rafaels.

Do I think the French care, not particularly, the French will sell to anyone they can get away with!

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SD67 wrote: 19 Feb 2023, 13:31 Personal guesstimate based on thumb in the air is that Dassault will balk at setting up a fully fledged production line in India, including the required long term commitment to TT. It’s not something they’ve really done before unless you count the blueprints for the mirage 3 that were “accidentally” handed to Mossad agents in Switzerland.

I understand the competition to help design the engine for AMCA is GE vs Rolls.
Certainly the original deal for licence production of 138 Rafaels eventually came off the tracks and failed as French intransigence butted heads with Indian chaotic bureaucracy, leading to a a far simpler direct purchase of 38.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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The UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) has awarded BAE Systems GBP1.4 billion (USD1.7 billion) to lead the country's Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP) effort.

Announced on 15 February, the award is a continuation of the Future Combat Air System (FCAS) research and development work of Team Tempest that comprises the MoD, BAE Systems, Leonardo, MBDA, and Rolls-Royce, and internationalises it under the GCAP programme recently announced with Italy and Japan.

“The FCAS Acquisition Programme (FCAS AP) Concept and Assessment Phase … will further the UK-led concept and assessment phase option by working with international partners to undertake concept development, technology maturation, technical demonstration planning, and critical programme enablers ahead of outline business case 2 (OBC2) option downselect,” the MoD said in its contract notification. OBC2 will provide the MoD with the basis to initiate the formal procurement stage.

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/air- ... ter-effort

Just this contract then it is time for the UK government to deliberate over the GCAP proposal and - some time later - say 'yes' or 'no'? I wonder if the participants will be able to agree among themselves in a timely manner what they will be offering to their governments.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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I’m guessing that takes the project through to main gate in 2025 which is the real “All systems go”, with industrial aspects , work share, ways of working etc sorted. Then the real industrial phase begins with a demonstrator flying from 2027. Tight but doable IMHO
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SD67 wrote: 20 Feb 2023, 13:12 I’m guessing that takes the project through to main gate in 2025 which is the real “All systems go”, with industrial aspects , work share, ways of working etc sorted. Then the real industrial phase begins with a demonstrator flying from 2027. Tight but doable IMHO
I wouldn't think 2027 was achievable for a demonstrator, too tight.

2030 could be if everything goes to plan with full agreement across an exceedingly complex programme on all levels by 2025, with work commencing on a demonstrator straight away.

That's a big if, but without France and Germany, we might well do it....

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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2027 for the first flight has been publicly announced by Wallace and his Japanese counterpart.
It may be that there has been alot of Tempest going on beneath the surface, and Mitsubishi X-2 Shinshin has already flown.

I guess "demonstrator" can mean different things to different programs
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Design and manufacture of the demonstrator using U.K. tier 1s and other has been underway for some time. Under a variety of project names.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SW1 wrote: 20 Feb 2023, 15:23 Design and manufacture of the demonstrator using U.K. tier 1s and other has been underway for some time. Under a variety of project names.
Good point chaps, I suppose it depends on what you mean by demonstrator.

Is an aircraft, based on the large Farnborough Tempest mockup actually under construction at Warton??

I had no idea, very interesting indeed...

I would regard real progress as the fruits of Anglo Japanese / Italian/ Swedish ?? industry taking to the air at Warton in prototype form.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SW1 »

mrclark303 wrote: 20 Feb 2023, 16:03
SW1 wrote: 20 Feb 2023, 15:23 Design and manufacture of the demonstrator using U.K. tier 1s and other has been underway for some time. Under a variety of project names.
Good point chaps, I suppose it depends on what you mean by demonstrator.

Is an aircraft, based on the large Farnborough Tempest mockup actually under construction at Warton??

I had no idea, very interesting indeed...

I would regard real progress as the fruits of Anglo Japanese / Italian/ Swedish ?? industry taking to the air at Warton in prototype form.
An aircraft is under construction.
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