Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SW1 wrote: 10 May 2023, 21:47 https://www.baesystems.com/en/product/m ... 16f24cc85b

The project involves the Ministry of Defence and the Team Tempest industry partners, led by BAE Systems, and a number of companies across the UK.

The first flight of the combat air demonstrator aircraft is set to take place within the next five years.

The flying demonstrator will be a piloted supersonic aircraft testing a range of new technologies including integration of stealth compatible features.
So GCAP prototype?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Cross posted to the MBDA thread as well...

One of the Japanese companies will of course be Mitsubishi Heavy Industries...

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... -teammates

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Interesting

"For effects, MBDA UK and MBDA Italy are already one company"

My fantasy scenario - France leave MBDA and Japan join. GCAP and Meteor as the catalyst. What Anglo-French program is there? FCASW seems like vaporware. of course it's all politics

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SD67 wrote: 12 May 2023, 11:44 My fantasy scenario - France leave MBDA and Japan join. GCAP and Meteor as the catalyst. What Anglo-French program is there? FCASW seems like vaporware. of course it's all politics
Until recently it was more likely that Leonardo would sell their MBDA stake i.e. MBDA Italia to one of the other consortium partners. BAE were in the lead to purchase it. Think Leonardo may have reconsidered the sale though.

As to MBDA UK and France co-operation there is FCASW, SPEAR 4 (Storm Shadow/SCALP EG MLU) and Sea Venom. The MLU has gone ok...but the French caused delays with Sea Venom and FCASW took a long time to agree an approach.

The French side of MBDA also does some ridiculous duplication....e.g. SmartGlider....a complete waste of time. Just licence build the Spear derivatives...and use funds on something else...

Truth is....MBDA UK seems to be where all the real action is at present. MBDA Italy's products are either old, not really going to set the world alight (see Teseo EVO) or dependent on MBDA UK (CAMM-ER). And its a similar story with MBDA France...MMP hasn't set the world alight (and it should do really...), Mistral is old, Exocet has reached the end...

All the recent high end develpments like Meteor, Brimstone, Asraam Blk VI, Sea Venom, CAMM have all had the UK in the driving seat....

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Timmymagic wrote: 12 May 2023, 13:35
SD67 wrote: 12 May 2023, 11:44 My fantasy scenario - France leave MBDA and Japan join. GCAP and Meteor as the catalyst. What Anglo-French program is there? FCASW seems like vaporware. of course it's all politics
Until recently it was more likely that Leonardo would sell their MBDA stake i.e. MBDA Italia to one of the other consortium partners. BAE were in the lead to purchase it. Think Leonardo may have reconsidered the sale though.

As to MBDA UK and France co-operation there is FCASW, SPEAR 4 (Storm Shadow/SCALP EG MLU) and Sea Venom. The MLU has gone ok...but the French caused delays with Sea Venom and FCASW took a long time to agree an approach.

The French side of MBDA also does some ridiculous duplication....e.g. SmartGlider....a complete waste of time. Just licence build the Spear derivatives...and use funds on something else...

Truth is....MBDA UK seems to be where all the real action is at present. MBDA Italy's products are either old, not really going to set the world alight (see Teseo EVO) or dependent on MBDA UK (CAMM-ER). And its a similar story with MBDA France...MMP hasn't set the world alight (and it should do really...), Mistral is old, Exocet has reached the end...

All the recent high end develpments like Meteor, Brimstone, Asraam Blk VI, Sea Venom, CAMM have all had the UK in the driving seat....
The ridiculous duplication of effort is stupidity in the absolute extreme. Scalp/ Storm Shadow was a success, I hope it's replacement will be too.

That said, t does seem an area the UK could successfully go it alone if needed, we have the core technology in house.

It will be interesting to see how the Anglo Japanese relationship matures regarding everything from systems, engines, airframes ( manned and unmanned) and weapon systems.

The UK and Japan have great synergy in all these fields.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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The U.K. is in talks with Japan and Italy about jointly developing a next-generation fighter jet demonstrator by 2027, the British Defence Ministry and local industry partners said on Tuesday.

This could mean closer collaboration sooner between the three nations that only six months ago agreed to merge their existing programs to collaborate on a next-generation combat aircraft for delivery by 2035, in a project called the Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP). BAE Systems is one of the main industrial partners of the project, along with Japan's Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Leonardo of Italy.
The demonstrator, when it is completed in 2027, will be fitted with two Eurojet EJ200 engines, a model used in the Eurofighter Typhoon
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Aerosp ... t-roll-out

Not quite as dramatic as the article makes out, as the Tempest demonstrator was planned to fly "within five years of 2025", but certainly good to see a suggestion of urgency. Also the ejector seat testing presumably at Martin Baker.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-b ... five-years
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Flightglobal article.

The inlet bit is the really interesting thing....length of the inlet to the engine face is 10 metres...an EJ-200 is 4 metres long....that means the overall length of the aircraft will be close to 20 metres....for reference; F-15 is 19.5 metres long, F-22 is 19 metres long, YF-23 was 20.5 metres long....

Given we're all expecting the engine in Tempest to be larger than EJ-200, more in the F-135 class (which is 5.5 metres long)....Tempest is going to be big...bigger than YF-23 by a couple of metres I suspect..

https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/uk ... 90.article
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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More on the ejection testbed:

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Timmymagic wrote: 14 Jun 2023, 12:15 Flightglobal article.

The inlet bit is the really interesting thing....length of the inlet to the engine face is 10 metres...an EJ-200 is 4 metres long....that means the overall length of the aircraft will be close to 20 metres....for reference; F-15 is 19.5 metres long, F-22 is 19 metres long, YF-23 was 20.5 metres long....

Given we're all expecting the engine in Tempest to be larger than EJ-200, more in the F-135 class (which is 5.5 metres long)....Tempest is going to be big...bigger than YF-23 by a couple of metres I suspect..

https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/uk ... 90.article
I was about to say the same, hopefully some folks will stop spouting affordable small " 21st century Haker Hunter" now..

It's going to be F22 sized at least...

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Yep, I've always thought this. At some point the laws of physics kick in and if the partners want long range and directed energy weapons (one day) that means lots of power and lots of fuel.

Which means there's no way GCAP and FCAS can merge, 20 metres length vs 15-16. Unless the replacement for CdeG is Ford-sized.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Or she maybe be being built for speed long and thin.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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It's been quite obvious that tempest will be big for a while now;
. Japanese requirements
. RAF crying for years about long range strike and never really getting solutions
. Need for large internal space for weapons payload
. Future power requirements and such.

Tempest won't ever be cheap, but it will be a hell lot cheaper if we pay now, no dillydallying, Strait up. The same goes for Aeralis, Swift and others.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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mrclark303 wrote: 14 Jun 2023, 14:28 I was about to say the same, hopefully some folks will stop spouting affordable small " 21st century Haker Hunter" now..
Mind you... a production run of 2,000 would be nice...

But...apparently Programme insiders from BAE, Leonardo, Rolls Royce and MoD have not ruled out an accompanying, cheaper, single seat fighter...apparently they think it could be very cheap to develop using Tempest components....
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Timmymagic wrote: 14 Jun 2023, 21:17
mrclark303 wrote: 14 Jun 2023, 14:28 I was about to say the same, hopefully some folks will stop spouting affordable small " 21st century Haker Hunter" now..
Mind you... a production run of 2,000 would be nice...

But...apparently Programme insiders from BAE, Leonardo, Rolls Royce and MoD have not ruled out an accompanying, cheaper, single seat fighter...apparently they think it could be very cheap to develop using Tempest components....
This always struck me as the logical next stage of the programme. Though never thought the appetite, much less funding would (will?) allow.

In a previous life, a variant of EJ200 was considered for Gripen but with Volvo's US connections was unlikely to happen. Wonder if such a proposal is something that would allow Sweden to fully commit to the system, if not the Tempest airframe.

A potential 'F-16' for the 2040s might even put the fox amongst the chickens over in camp SCAF. Now that would be a good use of the Hunter name...
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Said it before, I'd love to see GCAP say to Sweden - "here's the engine and 80% of the electronics, go develop a single engine stealthy looking ITAR free Gripen replacement"
But this time theyd need to let BAE do the marketing and not get all puritanical about off-book sales commissions

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Timmymagic wrote: 14 Jun 2023, 21:17 ...apparently Programme insiders from BAE, Leonardo, Rolls Royce and MoD have not ruled out an accompanying, cheaper, single seat fighter...apparently they think it could be very cheap to develop using Tempest components....
I think it would make business sense to fund a market study for a single engine airframe incorporating systems and parts from GCAP. Perhaps interested partner governments would be prepared to stump up a few million to partly fund such a study.

I suspect that a world market for 1,000-2,000 frames over 30-40 years might be identified for the right design. Start a company involving interested parties (perhaps SAAB and BAE Systems), agree project design leadership, agree assembly line location, produce aircraft in an organised, cost-controlled manner and the company should make a fortune. Finance could be provided on the basis of repayable launch aid by the governments of the core players, GCAP partners interested plus risk capital from the core players themselves. GCAP partners would obviously benefit enormously from use of GCAP-developed and -manufactured parts whether they chose to participate in the programme or not.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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It shouldn't be too hard to figure out. At a stab I'd say Design leadership SAAB, assembly at Warton, BAE leads on commercials, export marketing etc. SAAB has 40-50% workshare ie majority of the airframe, Rolls does the engine, target market = any F16 customer. (Would the ECR2 radar fit?) Similar deal to the Boeing / SAAB partnership on the T-7.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Saab even had an outline design some time ago...the FS2020.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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mrclark303 wrote: 14 Jun 2023, 14:28 I was about to say the same, hopefully some folks will stop spouting affordable small " 21st century Haker Hunter" now..
You're confusing size with affordability. The Hunter remarks originated from the RAF and was referring to the later.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Timmymagic wrote: 15 Jun 2023, 13:39 Saab even had an outline design some time ago...the FS2020.

Image
It's a shame Sweden are ducking out, as a high/ low mix of Tempest and a single engine Gripen sized derivative would have been a good idea.

This could use Tempest engine technology and selected avionics.

Sweden could have taken project lead on this and produced the next Gripen effectively...

What a shame, I would love the RAF to replace the lost Jaguar capability, with a similar affordable light strike aircraft for the 21st Century.

Perhaps 8 squadrons of Tempest and three of the light variant

Not to be unfortunately.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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It has been reported that the U.K carriers may go Catobar ,what would it take for Tempest to be tweaked for such operations?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Zeno wrote: 16 Jun 2023, 00:50 It has been reported that the U.K carriers may go Catobar ,what would it take for Tempest to be tweaked for such operations?
UAV catobar. Not an actual catobar. Well the RN programme Ark royal runs in stages, and it will hult when the next stage is unfeasible. There is a bit where the MoD refer to potential upgrade to a catobar system capable of handling heavy aircraft like F-18, but hen again F-18 could theoretically fly off the carriers now, (once apon a time they had ski jump testing) just not land or take-off with too heavy a load.
In all plans F-35B will always be the main fighter of the FMAF, with a FOC of 24 assisted by a viarity of UAV's.
Modifying tempest for CATOBAR ops would be idiotic because:
. no demand with FMAF while using F-35B
. Who has a CATOBAR carrier demand which they arn't capable of solving? USN: FAXX, France: SCAF, China: Chinese aircraft.

Also, look at KF-21. Modifications could be made later / when demand arises rather than effecting or even delaying work now as they optimise it for carrier duties.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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mrclark303 wrote: 15 Jun 2023, 23:03
Timmymagic wrote: 15 Jun 2023, 13:39 Saab even had an outline design some time ago...the FS2020.

Image
It's a shame Sweden are ducking out, as a high/ low mix of Tempest and a single engine Gripen sized derivative would have been a good idea.

This could use Tempest engine technology and selected avionics.

Sweden could have taken project lead on this and produced the next Gripen effectively...

What a shame, I would love the RAF to replace the lost Jaguar capability, with a similar affordable light strike aircraft for the 21st Century.

Perhaps 8 squadrons of Tempest and three of the light variant

Not to be unfortunately.
Could still happen. Sweden needs a new gripen one day, as do many nations. They are an ally and where part of tempest, and doing a technology export / partnership could still happen. A solution will have to arise to their problem.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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It would make sense, sharing costs and development of systems would benefit both aircraft. Economies of scale and all that. Plus, more countries would (in theory) be more interested in an F-16/Gripen sized aircraft, than a Tempest sized one.

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