Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
SD67
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

Superb.

Looks like Wallace is trying to get as much nailed down now as possible before the next election LOL
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by TheLoneRanger »

SD67 wrote: 18 Nov 2022, 10:22 Superb.

Looks like Wallace is trying to get as much nailed down now as possible before the next election LOL
Good point - if the contracts are all signed - far less for the next labour goverment to walk back on if there international contractual agreements in place.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Article Text

TOKYO -- Japan has entered the final stages of talks with the U.K. and Italy to jointly develop and build a next-generation fighter jet, marking a turning point as Japan looks beyond the U.S. for defense cooperation.

Tokyo will also consider revising its export rules to allow for defense equipment sales abroad, hoping to reduce development costs for the new plane and boost the domestic defense industry.

The Air Self-Defense Force plans to deploy the fighter starting in 2035. Japan's Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, British aviation and defense giant BAE Systems, and Italian defense contractor Leonardo S.p.A. will oversee development. A formal agreement is expected by the end of the year.

This will be the first time that Japan partners with Europe to develop a jet fighter.

The new plane is slated to be a successor to the Mitsubishi F-2, which was jointly developed with Lockheed Martin. Japan's Ministry of Defense initially planned to once again collaborate with the U.S. company, which is currently developing the next-generation F-35 fighter. However, Lockheed's refusal to share confidential technological information raised concerns about servicing aircraft domestically after deployment.

The U.K., meanwhile, had announced plans to introduce its Tempest sixth-generation fighter by 2035. With its development schedule overlapping with Japan's, and Lockheed's unwillingness to share information, that provided ample incentive for Japan to launch its first defense collaboration with Europe.

Russia's war in Ukraine has presented additional motivation.

The Japanese government has taken steps to increase cooperation with NATO. It plans to sign a facilitation agreement with the British government to make it easier to conduct joint military exercises, raising the relationship between the countries to a quasi-alliance.

The development of a next-generation fighter aircraft requires the integration of complex elements like radar and missile systems, as well as advanced stealth technology. The Defense Ministry wants the next generation of fighters to have the ability to communicate with unmanned and U.S. military aircraft, and to have sensor systems that can quickly detect and respond to enemy planes.

The planned collaboration will draw on the technological strengths of each company. BAE has a strong track record in fighter planes, producing the current flagship Eurofighter Typhoon with Italy, Germany and Spain, and exporting it to Saudi Arabia. The addition of Italy's Leonardo, which is experienced in sensor technology, is expected to give the plane the edge that Tokyo is looking for.

Engines will be produced by Japan's IHI and Britain's Rolls-Royce, while radar technology will be jointly developed by Mitsubishi and Leonardo's U.K. subsidiary.

In conjunction with the fighter's development, Japan will consider easing its restrictions on the export of defense equipment.

The Defense Ministry's "Three Principles on Transfer of Defense Equipment and Technology" currently limit exports to transport and surveillance equipment. An amendment to the rules could allow offensive equipment such as fighter aircraft to be exported under certain conditions.

Due to the current rules, which effectively limit the market to the country's Self-Defense Forces, the domestic defense industry has sent almost zero exports to other countries. Many contractors have withdrawn from the industry.

Exporting fighters will also ease production costs. Although Japan aims to significantly expand its defense budget, there is concern that rising costs on the new fighter could pressure the government's finances. Increasing sales through British and Italian channels would ease some of that pressure.

The Defense Ministry will discuss revising the export rules with the ruling Liberal Democratic Party during national security strategy discussions at the end of the year.
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

Maybe not the right place ,but I wonder how the tempest and SCAF projects will differ,I know the SCAF will be carrier capable but i mean in other aspects,what are each sides strengths and weaknesses what are each side looking for ,ie what are they putting most resources into developing and importance on etc , like I've heard Japan developing miniaturisation of certain parts etc for smaller engines etc ,just an example but what is Germany and Spain looking for etc ?

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Things still far from tranquil in the opposition camp...


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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Gtal »

Seriously, this transatlantic (but especially UK) alnst obsessive PR campaign around these future fighter programs reaaally reminds of Brexit lol.

It's like some people think they can make something real by just by repeating it often enough.. :!:

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Err, two of the prospective partners are EU members…

The reality is there’s not much happening at the moment in terms of pan European defence. Poland is going all in with Korea, a dozen countries have ordered F35, NH90 is being dumped left and right, MGCS is going nowhere. But at least A400M seems finally sorted.0
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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Gtal wrote: 20 Nov 2022, 16:54 Seriously, this transatlantic (but especially UK) alnst obsessive PR campaign around these future fighter programs reaaally reminds of Brexit lol.

It's like some people think they can make something real by just by repeating it often enough.. :!:
The reason there are two programmes, rather than one, was a decision made entirely in Paris and Berlin. The Anglo-French FCAS joint venture was stopped in an act of nationalistic, short-term thinking that seemed very much like a vengeful act, which Germany proactively reinforced.

Like it or not, there are two competing groups developing concepts for next generation combat air. From an industrial perspective, France is the only SCAF participant who could deliver an aircraft by themselves. It would seem unwise to push them too far.

P.S: As someone who voted to remain, it really does drive me mad when European voices seem to make the Brexiteers' arguments for them, years after the referendum was lost. However there are far bigger threats to Europe now, that go beyond the EU and its borders...

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SW1 »

Dassualt not happy


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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by inch »

It's in french can't read it ,take your word he unhappy ☹️

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Jensy »

The original article was in English anyway and republished by that website:

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 022-11-21/

Seems to have been rewritten for the French translation:
Trappier (Dassault) relativizes the progress on the SCAF project
21/11/2022 | 08:20 PARIS, Nov 21 (Reuters) -

Eric Trappier, CEO of Dassault Aviation, Relativized Monday the announcement Friday of agreements at the levels government and industry for the launch of the next development phase of the future SCAF combat aircraft ( air combat of the future).

"There is a political pseudo-announcement that has been made. I thinks that German authorizations - which were difficult to get - came out and it gave rise to leaks. That is not quite done yet," he said on RTL.

"Before the hour is not quite the time," he said. Added.

For the time being, no agreement has yet been signed between the industrial groups Dassault and Airbus, Eric said Trappier by suggesting that there was no guarantee that the Signature intervenes within the week.

Even if "it has progressed", the CEO of Dassault Aviation has warned that "we are at a very beginning of the process" because he does not For the time being, it is a question of agreeing on the realization studies. "There are other steps behind that will have to come, fly a demonstrator and then launch a development," he explained.

Berlin said Friday that France, Germany and Spain had reached an agreement to launch The next phase of development of the future combat aircraft SCAF, the largest European defence project with an estimated cost of more than EUR 100 billion.

Launched in 2017 by French President Emmanuel Macron and German Chancellor Angela Merkel at a time when the Union was weakened by the British decision to Leaving the Community bloc and by the migrant crisis, this Project has since been the source of recurring tensions between the France and Germany. (Written by Myriam Rivet, edited by Bertrand Boucey)
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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SD67 »

I think this actually a 3 way arm wrestle, the interests of Dassault the company, and the billionaire family who own it, are not perfectly aligned with those of the French state.

I mean, imagine if it does somehow get the go-ahead. At least 10 years of development. During that time there is still a market for Rafale derivatives. Dassault gets 100% of every Rafale sold, but only 30-40% of every SCAF. Which option do you think they're going to push? And they have the export contacts, not Germany or Spain.

Option B could be Dassault just milking Germany for development funding for a few years then going alone anyway

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

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SD67 wrote: 21 Nov 2022, 18:09 I think this actually a 3 way arm wrestle, the interests of Dassault the company, and the billionaire family who own it, are not perfectly aligned with those of the French state.

I mean, imagine if it does somehow get the go-ahead. At least 10 years of development. During that time there is still a market for Rafale derivatives. Dassault gets 100% of every Rafale sold, but only 30-40% of every SCAF. Which option do you think they're going to push? And they have the export contacts, not Germany or Spain.

Option B could be Dassault just milking Germany for development funding for a few years then going alone anyway
I think you're right. Dassault are not going to be happy with Airbus Military mucking about with 'their' design...

The French need the funding, the Germans need the French....

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by SW1 »

I’m not entirely sure they do with Germany buying into f35 and typhoon I’m really not sure why they are designing a new manned plane at all. The Germans could simply put the money in loyal wingmen/remote carriers a/c and integrate with a further f35 purchase at a later date.

The French need to develop a future fighter aircraft to satisfy there force de frappe requirement.

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Re: Future UK Combat Aircraft (Project Tempest)

Post by Little J »

SD67 wrote: 21 Nov 2022, 18:09 I think this actually a 3 way arm wrestle, the interests of Dassault the company, and the billionaire family who own it, are not perfectly aligned with those of the French state.

I mean, imagine if it does somehow get the go-ahead. At least 10 years of development. During that time there is still a market for Rafale derivatives. Dassault gets 100% of every Rafale sold, but only 30-40% of every SCAF. Which option do you think they're going to push? And they have the export contacts, not Germany or Spain.

Option B could be Dassault just milking Germany for development funding for a few years then going alone anyway
Sepecat Jaguar....
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