Foxhound Protected Vehicle

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Ron5
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Re: Foxhound Protected Vehicle

Post by Ron5 »

GD didn't enter the Foxhound into the MRV(P) program. Eagle was entered instead.

RunningStrong
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Re: Foxhound Protected Vehicle

Post by RunningStrong »

Ron5 wrote:GD didn't enter the Foxhound into the MRV(P) program. Eagle was entered instead.
Well that goes back to MoD wanting a cheaper platform. Foxhound is many things, but it's not cheap.

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Re: Foxhound Protected Vehicle

Post by Ron5 »

RunningStrong wrote:
Ron5 wrote:GD didn't enter the Foxhound into the MRV(P) program. Eagle was entered instead.
Well that goes back to MoD wanting a cheaper platform. Foxhound is many things, but it's not cheap.
Pulease. Eagle is cheap?? Like GD is the king of cheap. Over 3 billion on Ajax and about 20 delivered that don't work. Eagle built in the UK would be well over a mill a pop by the time they're delivered.

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Re: Foxhound Protected Vehicle

Post by RunningStrong »

Ron5 wrote:
RunningStrong wrote:
Ron5 wrote:GD didn't enter the Foxhound into the MRV(P) program. Eagle was entered instead.
Well that goes back to MoD wanting a cheaper platform. Foxhound is many things, but it's not cheap.
Pulease. Eagle is cheap?? Like GD is the king of cheap. Over 3 billion on Ajax and about 20 delivered that don't work. Eagle built in the UK would be well over a mill a pop by the time they're delivered.
Lol. You're looking like a prat, again.

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Re: Foxhound Protected Vehicle

Post by Lord Jim »

If we purchase the JLTV direct from the US under FMS it is likely to be the cheapest option out of the platforms under consideration. I do think we need to broaden out search though, as many countries are now producing platforms of a type that would meet the MRV(P) phases one and two, South Africa for example.

P.S. Will you two please shake hands and make up, it denigrates the forum when people act like this.

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Re: Foxhound Protected Vehicle

Post by RunningStrong »

Lord Jim wrote:If we purchase the JLTV direct from the US under FMS it is likely to be the cheapest option out of the platforms under consideration. I do think we need to broaden out search though, as many countries are now producing platforms of a type that would meet the MRV(P) phases one and two, South Africa for example.
I agree, I don't believe JLTV is the vehicle we need, and I don't believe Oshkosh will have sufficient incentive to make the British-standard of changes that are required for our use (Bowman just to start).

Perhaps with the latest security pact we will be looking towards the Bushmaster, to keep both Australia and Thales happy.

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Re: Foxhound Protected Vehicle

Post by Ron5 »

RunningStrong wrote:
Lord Jim wrote:If we purchase the JLTV direct from the US under FMS it is likely to be the cheapest option out of the platforms under consideration. I do think we need to broaden out search though, as many countries are now producing platforms of a type that would meet the MRV(P) phases one and two, South Africa for example.
I agree, I don't believe JLTV is the vehicle we need, and I don't believe Oshkosh will have sufficient incentive to make the British-standard of changes that are required for our use (Bowman just to start).

Perhaps with the latest security pact we will be looking towards the Bushmaster, to keep both Australia and Thales happy.
1. JLTV is half the price of any of its competitors. That's why it was selected by the UK. Fitting UK comms is not an issue.

2. Bushmaster is not competing against JLTV. It's an entry in part 2 of the requirement,. JLTV has already won part 1.

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Re: Foxhound Protected Vehicle

Post by RunningStrong »

Ron5 wrote: 1. JLTV is half the price of any of its competitors. That's why it was selected by the UK. Fitting UK comms is not an issue.
You're really top notch on your pricing knowledge, care to share your definitive sources? As far as I'm aware, UK doesn't have an export price for JLTV at the kit level we require to satisfy MRVP Pt. 1.
Ron5 wrote: 2. Bushmaster is not competing against JLTV. It's an entry in part 2 of the requirement,. JLTV has already won part 1.
Thank you Captain Obvious, but as we're all aware no contract has yet been awarded on JLTV.

Your definition of "already won" seems to contradict the most recent comments from British Army Head of Strategy.

https://www.army-technology.com/news/mrv-p-review/

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Re: Foxhound Protected Vehicle

Post by BB85 »

I have a feeling the UK will pull an Australia and back out of JLTV. I wonder if the US will withdraw their ambassador :lol:
I thought the whole point was to order them straight off the US production line and paint them green to get the US economies of scale.
Is the hold up now because the UK doesn't have the money or wants to get as much life out of the UOR MRAPs before they need a serious over hall.

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Re: Foxhound Protected Vehicle

Post by Lord Jim »

Why the MRV(P) programme and especially phase 1 has not progressed is one of life's great mysteries. It should really be in service with the Army already given that we were going to buy it via FMS, with the fitting of most UK kit being done here in workshops or so I believe.

I thought we had basically decided on how many vehicles initially and how many armour packages we wanted. we were initially going to use our existing RWS pool to equip some vehicles and then decide later what additional capabilities we wanted. All that was needed was a signature.

But it has all gone very quiet and no mention of it in recent announcement by the MoD or Government and I have not seen any publicity from DSEI 2021 which I would have thought would be the perfect time and place to announce the actual order.

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Re: Foxhound Protected Vehicle

Post by Ron5 »

Just a question of money. The uncertainty over Ajax and how much it will cost to fix that fiasco doesn't help.

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Re: Foxhound Protected Vehicle

Post by Tempest414 »

with a quick look around JLTV is around $470,000 and Bushmaster is $500,000 base price

Again a quick look around we are looking at buying about 850 vehicles in phase 1 of group 1 and say 400 in group 2 so for me I would just buy 1500 Bushmaster's one supplier one logistics and training effort and use them to equip 2 light BCT's the RAF regiment and Ranger units

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Re: Foxhound Protected Vehicle

Post by Lord Jim »

looking at all the recent videos of British Army exercises they do seem to be making the most of the Foxhound. I wonder if the MRV(P) programme does wilt away, that the Army may purchase a few more on the quiet, possibly in a few alternative configurations whilst they are at it?

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Re: Foxhound Protected Vehicle

Post by Tempest414 »

Also seeing quite a few Panthers still knocking about

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Re: Foxhound Protected Vehicle

Post by RunningStrong »

Lord Jim wrote: 06 Dec 2021, 22:23 looking at all the recent videos of British Army exercises they do seem to be making the most of the Foxhound. I wonder if the MRV(P) programme does wilt away, that the Army may purchase a few more on the quiet, possibly in a few alternative configurations whilst they are at it?
"Few more" would probably need to be a production run of the same size again. There's no existing factory or production line for Ocelot.

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Re: Foxhound Protected Vehicle

Post by BB85 »

They are a lot more expensive than JLTV which is why it was selected despite very little UK input in the production line. MRV does look like it's been knocked into the long grass though with Boxer and Indirect fire taking priority. It just shows how clueless the army still is bouncing from one project to the next not knowing which to prioritise. This whole two year turnover of senior staff and ministers is a complete joke which is probably reflected across all of government.

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Re: Foxhound Protected Vehicle

Post by SW1 »

BB85 wrote: 30 Dec 2021, 12:33 They are a lot more expensive than JLTV which is why it was selected despite very little UK input in the production line. MRV does look like it's been knocked into the long grass though with Boxer and Indirect fire taking priority. It just shows how clueless the army still is bouncing from one project to the next not knowing which to prioritise. This whole two year turnover of senior staff and ministers is a complete joke which is probably reflected across all of government.
Are they? What is the cost of JLTV that is not only configured to the same TES as foxhound and a JLTV that can drive on UK roads?

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Re: Foxhound Protected Vehicle

Post by BB85 »

The unit price was under $500k in 2019 vs over $1.25mm for Foxhound. Some of that is down to the composite materials used to reduce Foxhound weight but a lot of it is down to EOS.
Foxhound was a failure on the export market so there is very little point sustaining it if the jobs will only last 5 years after an expensive slow build process. The US could have already delivered the UK army requirement of 1,000 vehicles if we'd order in 2019.

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Re: Foxhound Protected Vehicle

Post by SW1 »

BB85 wrote: 30 Dec 2021, 16:31 The unit price was under $500k in 2019 vs over $1.25mm for Foxhound. Some of that is down to the composite materials used to reduce Foxhound weight but a lot of it is down to EOS.
Foxhound was a failure on the export market so there is very little point sustaining it if the jobs will only last 5 years after an expensive slow build process. The US could have already delivered the UK army requirement of 1,000 vehicles if we'd order in 2019.
I’ll ask the same question again as I don’t know and it’s never quoted anywhere, what is the price of JLTV that is able to drive on UK Road and fitted with all the same equipment that Foxhound is. So many time including from the MoD we see artificially low US prices quoted only for the actual cost to defence being several times higher and numbers slashed.

The JLTV price is always quoted as unit price where as the R&D costs are alway rolled into the price quoted for foxhound. Designing and developing something always costs money. Also there is absolutely no reason what so ever if order quantities are as suggested that production cannot take place in the UK if they can’t offer that then it should be no deal.

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Re: Foxhound Protected Vehicle

Post by Tempest414 »

For me we should just go for 1600 Bushmaster's built in the UK and operated by 2 Light BCT's , the RAF Regt and Rangers

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Re: Foxhound Protected Vehicle

Post by Lord Jim »

The R&D costs for the JLTV have probably already been recouped form the orders placed by the US Army and US Marines. Wasn't the JLTV based on an existing MRAV already in service as well which would have reduced its R&D costs as well? Therefore only quoting unit and support costs in the price for the JLTV seems reasonable whereas that for the Foxhound with its relatively limited production should still contain a noticeable amount regarding its R&D coasts.

At present the only programme I would say it actually being made a priority and is public is Boxer and even then calling it a priority stretched the meaning of the word somewhat. Precision fires is a priority in name only as we will not see either the upgraded GMLRS or the AS-90 replacements until the first half of the 2030s at the earliest. If these were a real priority both would be in service swell before then. The MoD was supposed to be changing its procurement procedures to be more like those for UPRs in order to speed up the delivery of programmes but given the timescales of the equipment programme this certainly has not happened.

As a result the Army will probably flog the Foxhounds and other remaining vehicles purchased under UORs from the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq to death before replacing them. This is why only one of the Light BCTs can even be called Motorised whilst the second is really just a collection of Light Role Infantry Battalions. How many vehicles are allocated to the Ranger Regiment will have an effect on the number available to the first Light BCT though.

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Re: Foxhound Protected Vehicle

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Tempest414 wrote: 29 Dec 2021, 12:08 Also seeing quite a few Panthers still knocking about
What exactly is the issue with the Panther? They're still being used by the Italians, Austrians, Spanish, Brazilians & even the Russians. Seen video of Italians using them in combat in Afghanistan & Spanish in Mali.

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Re: Foxhound Protected Vehicle

Post by RunningStrong »

SW1 wrote: 30 Dec 2021, 16:51 The JLTV price is always quoted as unit price where as the R&D costs are alway rolled into the price quoted for foxhound. Designing and developing something always costs money. Also there is absolutely no reason what so ever if order quantities are as suggested that production cannot take place in the UK if they can’t offer that then it should be no deal.
Do the latest Foxhound unit prices include the money to fix the UOR shortcuts when brought into core?

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Re: Foxhound Protected Vehicle

Post by Tempest414 »

Dahedd wrote: 30 Dec 2021, 22:08
Tempest414 wrote: 29 Dec 2021, 12:08 Also seeing quite a few Panthers still knocking about
What exactly is the issue with the Panther? They're still being used by the Italians, Austrians, Spanish, Brazilians & even the Russians. Seen video of Italians using them in combat in Afghanistan & Spanish in Mali.
It was said in the context that there are video's of resent deployments of the UK army with Panthers yet we were told that the fleet was or was to be sold off in 2018

however if we could keep 300 Mastiffs , 350 Jackals , 400 Foxhounds , 250 Husky's and 300 Panthers we could have 2 good light motorized BCT's a lot of logistics but still good to be getting on with

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Re: Foxhound Protected Vehicle

Post by SW1 »

RunningStrong wrote: 30 Dec 2021, 22:19
SW1 wrote: 30 Dec 2021, 16:51 The JLTV price is always quoted as unit price where as the R&D costs are alway rolled into the price quoted for foxhound. Designing and developing something always costs money. Also there is absolutely no reason what so ever if order quantities are as suggested that production cannot take place in the UK if they can’t offer that then it should be no deal.
Do the latest Foxhound unit prices include the money to fix the UOR shortcuts when brought into core?
No idea as I have no idea what a new order for foxhound would cost. At this point I’m not even sure the program exists anymore as the two light mechanised brigades appears odd in their configuration and the results of the Ajax review are as yet unknown.

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