Project Crowsnest (RN)

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Ron5
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Ron5 »

inch wrote:Can anybody tell me I believe when deployed next year they will be not fully ready (initial operating capacity) what does that mean ,not all the functions on the system work or what ? Thanks
You really think what works and what doesn't would be publicized?

S M H
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by S M H »

It will be like the situation of the aew Sea Kings in 1982 when deployed on Ilustrious the system worked but had not been tested at see under real working conditions. I suspect that they will be a working system that's completed intigration and system tests working from land. But hasn't done the at sea testing. So sending a few sets to sea on a working carrier is exactly what we did with the Sea King AEW.

serge750
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by serge750 »

Wonder if there will be a few landing trials with POW first when she goes out for further helicopter trials next month ?

Lord Jim
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Lord Jim »

There will probably be three or four on the 2021 deployment whatever the status of the systems. The F-35s will be able to provide pretty good coverage anyhow. Look upon the deployment a a major sea trail for CROWSNEST.

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Interesting twitter thread.



See also, https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/the-st ... t-project/

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Poiuytrewq
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Progress!


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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

While I am supportive of the roll on/off nature of the system selected, at the same time it should be properly acknowledged to what degree the rest of the Merlin fleet will come under pressure when up to 8 a/c become AEW tasked.

Following on from the SRO tasks "As SRO you are to develop, maintain, and communicate the vision of the programme to all stakeholders. Key stakeholders, particularly in other TLBs with which the programme has inter-dependencies," will need to be identified and challenged
- which challenge could take the form of securing funding for a couple of the 'Italian-style CSAR' configured Merlins to be added to the overall fleet numbers
- though the design for the USAF Combat Search and Rescue ( CSAR-X ) competition - to replace the HH-60G Pave Hawk - predates the Italian order by 9 years, there might still be some good ideas to 'nick' from it
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Ron5
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

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ArmChairCivvy wrote:While I am supportive of the roll on/off nature of the system selected, at the same time it should be properly acknowledged to what degree the rest of the Merlin fleet will come under pressure when up to 8 a/c become AEW tasked.

Following on from the SRO tasks "As SRO you are to develop, maintain, and communicate the vision of the programme to all stakeholders. Key stakeholders, particularly in other TLBs with which the programme has inter-dependencies," will need to be identified and challenged
- which challenge could take the form of securing funding for a couple of the 'Italian-style CSAR' configured Merlins to be added to the overall fleet numbers
- though the design for the USAF Combat Search and Rescue ( CSAR-X ) competition - to replace the HH-60G Pave Hawk - predates the Italian order by 9 years, there might still be some good ideas to 'nick' from it
Why on earth should the guy responsible for Crowsnest spend any time or energy getting money for more helicopters of any variety? Lack of ASW, CSAR, or any other kind is none of his business. Those programs, if they have a formal requirement, have their own owners.

Ron5
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Ron5 »

I was much amused by the chat abut the poor guy being held to sole account by the parliamentary committee while the rest of the MoD and Treasury hide behind him.

bobp
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by bobp »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:While I am supportive of the roll on/off nature of the system selected, at the same time it should be properly acknowledged to what degree the rest of the Merlin fleet will come under pressure when up to 8 a/c become AEW tasked.
Yes there is a serious shortfall of Helicopters throughout the forces, no lessons learnt from Afghanistan as such.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Key stakeholders, particularly in other TLBs with which the programme has inter-dependencies,
You, again, did not :crazy: read this part.
Ron5 wrote: Those programs, if they have a formal requirement, have their own owners.
Do you not think (obviously not) that their SRO letters have something on similar lines? However, the latest addition probably brings more interdependencies than were 'there' before
- project & prgrm management 101,
easy as 123... if one has ever done ;) any that is

Of course you don't accept the fact that multi-role, on and off, increases the already serious overstretch of the limited fleet, either
- which is fine and dandy, as I'm not here to educate you
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Ron5
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Ron5 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Key stakeholders, particularly in other TLBs with which the programme has inter-dependencies,
You, again, did not :crazy: read this part.
Ron5 wrote: Those programs, if they have a formal requirement, have their own owners.
Do you not think (obviously not) that their SRO letters have something on similar lines? However, the latest addition probably brings more interdependencies than were 'there' before
- project & prgrm management 101,
easy as 123... if one has ever done ;) any that is

Of course you don't accept the fact that multi-role, on and off, increases the already serious overstretch of the limited fleet, either
- which is fine and dandy, as I'm not here to educate you
As always, if you wish to be understood, write logical comments in clear English.

Ron5
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Ron5 »

bobp wrote:
ArmChairCivvy wrote:While I am supportive of the roll on/off nature of the system selected, at the same time it should be properly acknowledged to what degree the rest of the Merlin fleet will come under pressure when up to 8 a/c become AEW tasked.
Yes there is a serious shortfall of Helicopters throughout the forces, no lessons learnt from Afghanistan as such.
Plenty of Chinook & Apache surely?

bobp
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by bobp »

Ron5 wrote:Plenty of Chinook & Apache surely?
Maybe so, but the Merlin ASW version, and Wildcat fleets are at least half the numbers we had in Sea King and Lynx, plus the Army no longer has its Gazelles. Total numbers are down 50 percent on what we had in 2008.

https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/the-ro ... eavy-load/

Scimitar54
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Scimitar54 »

Which makes it all the more criminal that 8 x Merlin HM1 are languishing in inactivity, when they could (and should) have been brought up to HM2 standard to provide additional Airframes for the additional (to Merlin) Crowsnest role. :mrgreen:

Little J
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Little J »

Scimitar54 wrote:Which makes it all the more criminal that 8 x Merlin HM1 are languishing in inactivity, when they could (and should) have been brought up to HM2 standard to provide additional Airframes for the additional (to Merlin) Crowsnest role. :mrgreen:
Was just going to say that too... I would even have used those airframes as the main Crowsnest equipped aircraft, then the ASW commitment could have carried on uninterrupted during test and evaluation...

serge750
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by serge750 »

Does seem a waste, I think somebody mentioned that they were being used for spares? maybe with the recent increase in spending ( after the black hole ) a small amount could be prioritized to bring 2 or 3 back to service....but probably not :roll:

bobp
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by bobp »

There simply is not enough Merlin Helicopters to go round, so yes the 8 cannibalised ones could be converted to 8 AEW versions, wonder what that would cost though.

SW1
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by SW1 »

Those 8 no longer exist there in museums and the like.

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Tempest414
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Tempest414 »

The AEW Merlin's should have been 10 new aircraft built for AEW only

Ron5
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Ron5 »

I'm sure extra Merlins are a lost cause now and the best hope is an early delivery of the new multi-national effort to develop a new medium helo aka a Merlin successor.

Yeah, that's likely :lol:

Scimitar54
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Scimitar54 »

That would probably be Project Cloud Nine though! :mrgreen:

Lord Jim
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Lord Jim »

Well we will just have to accept the new size of the Merlin HM2 ASW force, routinely having around six on a carrier at any one time and in wartime every available airframe we have on any ship that will take one, which is our normal operating procedure unless we have allies help. Does make the need for a stand off weapon for the T-26 and possibly the T-31 a higher priority though, or even just having TT on the ships themselves like everyone else still seems to do.

BlueD954
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by BlueD954 »

Tempest414 wrote:The AEW Merlin's should have been 10 new aircraft built for AEW only
AEW should in the future be unmanned. The Merlin force -Mk2 and Mk4/4a - will OSD in the 2030s. So there will be a need for new platforms.

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