Project Crowsnest (RN)

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abc123
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Project Crowsnest (RN)

Post by abc123 »

So, old Sea Kings are being deployed on HMS Ocean in AEW role.



Image

https://navynews.co.uk/archive/news/item/15695

What's the status of Crowsnest project? When will they become operational?
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What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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shark bait
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by shark bait »

Manufacture contract is going to be signed this year, sea kings finally go out of service in September 2018, so they're going to have to get a serious move on if the transition is going to be seamless.
@LandSharkUK

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

shark bait wrote:Manufacture contract is going to be signed this year
Fallon was talking about spring; I would be hard pressed to think of any other meaningful milestone exc. the one above
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

But it is still a mystery why the winner was asked to rebid
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

abc123
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by abc123 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:But it is still a mystery why the winner was asked to rebid
Money?
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

well, money downed this bird (could be termed an Ugly Duckling, but the predecessor Fairey Gannett wins in that series hands down):
https://wilkybarkid.wordpress.com/2015/ ... -what-ifs/
What has it got to do with Crowsnest?

If I remember correctly, the two side AESAs won over the "baggers" type of approach reapplied?

The two AESAs combined to one radar picture beat the Hawkeye in coverage (if not in range)
... so would the HS139b have as the dark areas are two different radars, for the pictures produced then to be combined by processing means

Only the very latest fighters have additional, side looking AESAs - have not spotted any with a back view, despite the 360 being a hot topic?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

abc123
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by abc123 »

So, if I get this thing right, result of Crowsnest will be radar similar to current radar on Sea Kings but put on Merlins? Like this:

http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2015/05/r ... owsnest-2/
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

Timmymagic
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Timmymagic »

There was also a proposal for an AEW Dominie. Range was dreadful though.

Yes the Crowsnest solution will be a bagged radar. It is designed to be modular so will allegedly use the workstations onboard Merlin HM2.

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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Ron5 »

Timmymagic wrote:There was also a proposal for an AEW Dominie. Range was dreadful though.

Yes the Crowsnest solution will be a bagged radar. It is designed to be modular so will allegedly use the workstations onboard Merlin HM2.
Been thru this before. Brand new workstations.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Timmymagic wrote:Yes the Crowsnest solution will be a bagged radar
Sorry about mis-recall about who won. So the field of regard may actually have been a factor (in winning)?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Lord Jim
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Lord Jim »

Why oh why are they going to rip out the work stations on upgraded HM2s when we have unmodified HM1s in storage still, unless these have been Christmas treed for spares. Typical MoD logic at play egged on by the Treasury probably.

marktigger
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by marktigger »

have you seen the pictures of the HM1's in storage?

BTW at least with some in storage if one is written off they can generate a replacement

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

marktigger wrote: BTW at least with some in storage if one is written off they can generate a replacement

Finally a rationale that sticks - 8 is a big number, though?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

marktigger
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by marktigger »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Finally a rationale that sticks - 8 is a big number, though?
what is the expected OSD for Merlin ? since it's going to be around for a while then 8 might not be so big

but take a look

http://www.demobbed.org.uk/aircraft.php?type=725

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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Ron5 »

Lord Jim wrote:Why oh why are they going to rip out the work stations on upgraded HM2s when we have unmodified HM1s in storage still, unless these have been Christmas treed for spares. Typical MoD logic at play egged on by the Treasury probably.
1. Not rip out. Slide out. Both workstations can be swapped in and out as required.

2. A workstation for ASW is not the same a a workstation for AA controllers. It's different work. Think about it.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Ron5 wrote:Not rip out. Slide out.
The airframe is not big enough to do the roll-in/ roll-out (of complete modules, not just workstations) as in the Dragon suite by LM for , basically, transport aircraft
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Timmymagic »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Sorry about mis-recall about who won. So the field of regard may actually have been a factor (in winning)?
Not sure about that. Certainly in the past combining 2 radar pictures together was problematic (particularly from 2 radars, rather than 2 aerials). But manufacturers seem to be more confident now. The Vigilance pods looked like a great idea, same radar as F-35 so cutting edge, electronic attack a possibility and possible use on other platforms plus less drag. The main reason I suspect was that Searchwater is a known system, its a cracking radar in itself and seems like a relatively simple programme. No complaints from me in that regard, I liked the look of Vigilance but can't fault the logic behind the procurement. The re-bid thing is worrying though...

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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Ron5 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Ron5 wrote:Not rip out. Slide out.
The airframe is not big enough to do the roll-in/ roll-out (of complete modules, not just workstations) as in the Dragon suite by LM for , basically, transport aircraft
Team estimated 2 hours to reconfigure.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Timmymagic wrote:same radar as F-35 so cutting edge
sensor fusion... even if it is "only" two radars
Ron5 wrote:Team estimated 2 hours to reconfigure.
pretty good.of course you will need to onboard the specialists as you sail (or fly them in later, if the threat picture changes from what initially was assessed)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by Ron5 »

Not really sure why they would ever reconfigure at sea unless one of the Merlins went seriously U/S.

Maybe that's all it is: insurance against attrition.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Ron5 wrote:insurance against attrition.
That, and the capital expenditure upfront, maintaining two fleets that are so close to identical. You can imagine an "overload" situation at the TF level, so multiroleing the helos carried, according to the changing threat picture, is not to be sniffed at.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

marktigger
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by marktigger »

i do wonder looking at the state of the "reserve" fleet if any of them will fly again

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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

marktigger wrote:, 19:16
i do wonder looking at the state of the "reserve" fleet if any of them will fly again
I think the number (8, vs 10 kits ordered) says it all: they were kept as an insurance against the ro/ro solution actually not happening... and I think by now it has been proved feasible.

But the numbers are so tight that any write-offs, for any reason, would have to be replaced. Hence, having airframes is a good start, rather than ordering a new build (esp. if the line closes at some point).
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

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marktigger
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Re: Project Crowsnest- status?

Post by marktigger »

had heard at BBC SW there was investment comming at yeovil wasn't sure what

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