UK Defence Forum

Using all the protected vehicles mastiff , ridegeback , husky , wolfhound , foxhound et al could we form a protected mobility brigade say of 4 battalions and recce regiment + support units . I see this as a rear area brigade supporting the forward armoured brigades .

I agree and it should really be Brigade, single not Brigades.

mastiff , ridegeback , husky , wolfhound , foxhound

None of those are fighting vehicles so to make the bde fit for tribal wars
- recce would need ordering the patrol version add-ons for the foxhounds (a good idea, anyway)
- indirect fire would be down to mortars (already on Huskies, though probs dismounted for firing) and LGs (if towed by wolfhounds, at least there would be plenty of rounds to expend!)

We shoud not have done away with our older Archers. With 4 of them, at least the main (logs) base could be secured against mortar and rocket attacks (by immediate counter-fire). Why 4? 90-degree coverage, only. As the Americans did not have any, they had to rent 4 plenty quick to make the Kabul airport "safe" when they went into A-stan.

Parliamentary written answers July 2nd :-

Asked by Mr Kevan Jones
(North Durham)
[N]
Asked on: 29 June 2020
Ministry of Defence
Army: Vehicles
65952
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, what his policy is on the future of (a) Mastiff and (b) other legacy Army vehicles.
A
Answered by: Jeremy Quin
Answered on: 02 July 2020

The Army continues to rationalise its legacy vehicle fleets, work commenced in 2017 under the Land Environment Fleet Optimisation Plan. This work has already removed 2,831 vehicles from service and disposed of a number of legacy vehicle fleets. The next strand of this work seeks to remove several further legacy vehicle types from service, including the disposal of the Mastiff, Ridgeback and Wolfhound fleets.

Worst titled and misplaced thread ever. Horrible.

So you are the guy with Big Ideas and therefore you do not want to know/ hear where

This work has already removed 2,831 vehicles

- tell us about your Big Ideas... a pretty please

The next strand of this work seeks to remove several further legacy vehicle types from service, including the disposal of the Mastiff, Ridgeback and Wolfhound fleets.

- the logic for the troop carrying versions is clear
- Wolfhound? Wait for what the guys will say in the German trucks when mortar bombs start dropping near to them, or heavy MGs are firing at them from a remote hill top ... while doing a "straight-forward" replenishment job

I suppose they are already looking towards the JLTV and are doing what the RAF often does nowadays and have a Capability Gap in that vehicle class until then. Obviously it isn't the Army Top Brass's to have the shared Brain cell at the moment.

Lord Jim wrote:suppose they are already looking towards the JLTV

they better be as

ArmChairCivvy wrote:already removed 2,831 vehicles

while we must acknowledge that the Army has shrunk as well

ArmChairCivvy wrote:while we must acknowledge that the Army has shrunk as well

But we also have the bulk of our Infantry basically lacking any transport except the modern equivalent of an unarmoured 4ton Truck!

I thought that, of the 15 Light Role batallions, 6 were now Light Protected Mobility and 3 Heavy Protected Mobility, or are they counted as part of something else?

The vehicles for the heavy bns seemed to be on the 'kill' list (transition to Strike), and even though this (from armedforced.co.uk) might be well out of date by now, there are two things to note

Current plans appear to include considerable Army Reserve reinforcements during training and if necessary for operations when battalions operating in this role are deployed.

Affiliated battalions are shown in the next table.

Light Protected Mobility Battalion – Army Reserve Affiliations
Unit Role Location Affiliated Reserve Unit
2nd Bn the Yorkshire Regiment Light Protected Mobility Catterick 4th Bn The Yorkshire Regiment (R) (York)

2nd Bn the Royal Anglian Regiment Light Protected Mobility Cottesmore 3rd Bn the Royal Anglian Regiment (R) (Bury St Edmunds)

1st Bn the Royal Irish Regiment Light Protected Mobility Tern Hill 2nd Bn the Royal Irish Regiment (R) (Lisburn)

1st Bn The Welsh Guards Light Protected Mobility Pirbright 3rd Bn The Royal Welsh (R) (Cardiff)

3rd Bn The Rifles Light Protected Mobility Edinburgh 5th Bn The Royal Regiment of Fusiliers (R) (Newcastle)

3rd Bn The Royal Regiment of Scotland Light Protected Mobility Fort George 7th Bn The Royal Regiment of Scotland (R) (Perth)
---------
the notes say that the reserves would swell the ranks of the units deploying, rather than deploying as formed units,
and second:
- the protected cabs listed would be enough for only half of the establishment strength (before! the above hinted re-enforcements)??

Thanks, good info. The Reserves seem to have been chronically under-equipped for years.

Still trying to understand the numbers. Again, as I understand it (and talking in round figures):

Army 2020 plans for (in Infantry terms)

4 x Armoured Infantry (Warrior 2 - currently six on Warrior)
4 x Mechanised Infantry (Boxer, currently three on Mastiff, Ridgeback and Wolfhound))
15 x Light Role (currently 6 x Foxhound, plus soft-skin vehicles)
4 x Specialised
4 x Air Assault

Current plans are for the Army to purchase c. 245 re-turreted Warrior, c. 300 Boxer, c. 2750 JLTV (or similar) and c. 300 Busmaster (or similar)

- 4 Armoured Infantry on Warrior (which looks like it's going ahead)
- 4 Mechanised Infantry on Boxer (eventually to be expanded to 8, for two Strike Brigades)
- 6 "Light Protected" battalions (currently Foxhound and Husky) - transition to JLTV on a one to one replacement (approximately 500 vehicles)
- 9 "Unprotected" battalions (currently soft skinned) - transition to Bushmaster (c. 300) & JLTV (c. 400)
- 4 Specialised Infantry (c. 200 JLTV)
- 4 Air Assault battalions (???)

Approx. total vehicles used 224 Warrior, c. 300 Boxer, c. 300 Bushmaster and approx. 1100 JLTV.

At some point, there is the intention to create a second Strike Brigade, which would result in a further 4 Light Role infantry units transitioning to Mechanised Infantry. At that point, it would just need the purchase of a further 100 Bushmaster would convert the entire Light Role Infantry to "Heavy Protected", leaving just the Specialised Infantry as Light Protected.

This would eliminate Mastiff, Ridgeback, Wolfhound, Foxhound, Husky, RWIMK Landrover and Panther. An additional buy of Boxer could replace Bulldog in the Armoured units (though changing the Ajax order to produce more of the APC variant might work as well)'

Does that sound right?

Edit: Realised that I'd put "Heavy Protected", when I meant "Unprotected"

Caribbean wrote:4 Mechanised Infantry on Boxer (eventually to be expanded to 8, for two Strike Brigades)

Possibly I am wrong, but I think each Strike brigade is going to be made up of two cavalry and two infantry unit, so only 4 Mechanised infantry will be needed for the two brigades

Tom8 wrote:

Caribbean wrote:4 Mechanised Infantry on Boxer (eventually to be expanded to 8, for two Strike Brigades)

Possibly I am wrong, but I think each Strike brigade is going to be made up of two cavalry and two infantry unit, so only 4 Mechanised infantry will be needed for the two brigades

OK - thanks - that makes more sense - so no extra 4 battalions on Boxer, even though an additional 500 was proposed at one point? Presumably they would replace Bulldog, then, rather than an Ajax variant

Caribbean wrote:eliminate Mastiff, Ridgeback, Wolfhound, Foxhound, Husky, RWIMK Landrover and Panther.

Referring to official plans (time horizon??) I understand the others as the role of them/ their units have changed, but the roles for Wolfhound, Foxhound have not changed (and in addition, Wolfhound makes an excellent gun limber - including carrying a good number of rounds on the same vehicle... so that not all artillerymen become drivers).

Caribbean wrote:

Tom8 wrote:

Caribbean wrote:4 Mechanised Infantry on Boxer (eventually to be expanded to 8, for two Strike Brigades)

Possibly I am wrong, but I think each Strike brigade is going to be made up of two cavalry and two infantry unit, so only 4 Mechanised infantry will be needed for the two brigades

OK - thanks - that makes more sense - so no extra 4 battalions on Boxer, even though an additional 500 was proposed at one point? Presumably they would replace Bulldog, then, rather than an Ajax variant

"up to 1500" has been discussed as a possible requirement for boxer.

presumably of all types - and given a maximalist ambition of all the existing vehicle types that boxer would replace...

The initial order is stated as 500+ so that could mean as many as we can get for the initial funding. Besides equipping the four Mechanised Infantry Battalions in the "Strike" Brigades, around 300, I can see it replacing the majority of the remaining FV432 series in various units. It may even provide the Mortar Carrier platform for the Armoured Infantry Battalions.

Lord Jim wrote:may even provide the Mortar Carrier platform for the Armoured Infantry Battalions.

Saw a mention somewhere that we are working on that together with the Bundeswehr.
- which mortar is on the Wiesels? Though that one is lowered to the ground; unlikely in the Boxer set up

ArmChairCivvy wrote:aw a mention somewhere that we are working on that together with the Bundeswehr.
- which mortar is on the Wiesels? Though that one is lowered to the ground; unlikely in the Boxer set up

Could we and the Germans simply install the dragonfire 120mm that is used by the French and italians in their wheeled vehicles? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Fire_(mortar))

Same one on "M1129 vehicles were put into service in Spring 2005 with the 172nd Stryker Brigade Combat Team. The 172nd Stryker Brigade deployed to Iraq in August 2005 being the first unit to fire the M1129/MCV-B in theatre."
- I forget which one the Danes put onto their newer Piranhas ( a close match with Boxer as a platform)

Dragon fire would be an interesting option as it could be rolled out across all the Infantry, with units such as those in 16 AA towing it behind a suitable airmobile tractor, whilst other could use the JLTV.

Looking again at the Army's Land Environment Fleet Optimisation Plan - LEFOP this is what is happening it seems;

Already axed-
Warthog
Buffalo ordnance clearing vehicle.
Talisman counter IED system.
Vixen patrol vehicle.

In the process of being axed-
Hundreds of MAN SV 6T trucks.
A number of Terrier tracked combat engineering vehicles.
A substantial part of the fleet of Panther protect patrol vehicles.
All Huskey protected support vehicle
All RWIMK Land Rovers.

This is a total of 2831 vehicles.

Planned to be axed-
All Mastiffs
All Wolfhounds.
All Ridgebacks.

This leaves the Army with only the Foxhound, Jackal 2 and Coyote (Plus the few Bushmasters purchased for the SF I believe) left out of the 1000s of vehicles purchased under UORs for the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan. How much money would have been saved if we had proceeded with the FRES UV programme I wonder?

Lord Jim wrote:How much money would have been saved if we had proceeded with the FRES UV programme I wonder?

Probably not so much as you might think.
The winner of the “trials of truth” wasn’t announced until mid-2008 and the first deliveries for Piranha 5 (which is essentially what the winner ended up being) post-date ops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Had we remained with the previous programme (Boxer nee MRAV) we could have had that in a similar timescale to the UORs we purchased.

Had we not been so enamoured with a host of programmes with “Future” in the title, we might have had other vehicles in place.

May I assume the reason they are being disposed is largely because of the asinine Treasury rule that imposes a financial penalty on keeping such equipment even though it costs next to nothing, invented by one Mr Brown.

Yes I know there's a cost of keeping stuff in warehouses, that is significant but not major expense, I'm referring to the imaginary residual book value that's treated like real money.

As per above post: madness.

We paid for the Terriers twice and they are fairly new. Once the dispute was settled in court, the MoD pocketed the money, the project costings started from zero and they were still v expensive per piece.

Lord Jim wrote:A number of Terrier tracked combat engineering vehicles.

All Huskey protected support vehicle

And Huskeys could be excellent protected platforms (command/ radio cars, ambulances, mortar platforms) for those bns that have no protected mobility.

Looks like only the series/ family where there is high component commonality will stay... for a while.