UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

As per above post: madness.

We paid for the Terriers twice and they are fairly new. Once the dispute was settled in court, the MoD pocketed the money, the project costings started from zero and they were still v expensive per piece.
Lord Jim wrote:A number of Terrier tracked combat engineering vehicles.

All Huskey protected support vehicle
And Huskeys could be excellent protected platforms (command/ radio cars, ambulances, mortar platforms) for those bns that have no protected mobility.

Looks like only the series/ family where there is high component commonality will stay... for a while.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by Lord Jim »

I suppose we are reducing the number of Terriers as it is believed we simply no longer need as many. As for the Husky, well the MRV(P) in the form of the JLTV will replace it in many of the roles mentioned that it could have filled. In a nutshell with the exception of the Foxhound, Jackal and Coyote, everything else we bought under UORs is being binned, with the few remaining Panthers being retained by the RAF Regiment.

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Lord Jim wrote:Husky, well the MRV(P) in the form of the JLTV will replace it in many of the roles mentioned that it could have filled.
Well I guess the tenses in which verbs are being used will not give us any sense for the timeframe, so we will need to work it out backwards, from any serious numbers of JLTVs arriving?
Lord Jim wrote:In the process of being axed-
Hundreds of MAN SV 6T trucks.
A number of Terrier tracked combat engineering vehicles.
A substantial part of the fleet of Panther protect patrol vehicles.
All Huskey protected support vehicle
All RWIMK Land Rovers.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)


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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Quote from the above linked
"The Protected Mobility Engineering & Technical Support (PMETS) contract is being led by NP Aerospace as Engineering Authority for MoD’s fleet of 2,200 Protected Mobility Vehicles until 2024. The vehicles covered under the contract include the Mastiff, Wolfhound, Ridgback, Buffalo, Choker, RODET, Foxhound, Jackal, Coyote and Husky. "
so with the less than exact communication from the MoD, it is likely that only in 2024 (with the support contract renewal) we will find out which of the listed have actually 'left' service.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by Lord Jim »

Well from previous articles we will only have Foxhound, Jackal and Coyote well before then.

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Those three are clearly a class of their own.

But regarding the others facing an immediate chop :o
when nothing has been ordered yet 8-)
and the for the batch one pre-chosen has another :? year of 'trials' with the British kit to run
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by Lord Jim »

I suppose the canning of the other platforms is seen as a way of balancing the books somewhat or fiddling the figures if you see it that way. Removing them from the fleet frees up capital I believe.

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Lord Jim wrote:seen as a way of balancing the books somewhat
Yes, if you don't hold 'war stocks' then you won't get charged interest,
whereas
Lord Jim wrote: Removing them from the fleet frees up capital
I've never heard that writing off something (see the point above) would hurt the MoD shareholders' (us :lol: ) capital held in that 'subsidiary'
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by Tempest414 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Those three are clearly a class of their own.

But regarding the others facing an immediate chop :o
when nothing has been ordered yet 8-)
and the for the batch one pre-chosen has another :? year of 'trials' with the British kit to run
I can't understand why we would not keep Husky until we have at least 400+ JLTV's in service. With 400 jackal , 400 Foxhound and 300 Husky we can have two full Motorised Brigades in the 1st Division

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by Lord Jim »

I don't think 1st Division is going to be establishing "Combat" formations in the near future.

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by Luke jones »

jonas wrote:A dozen Mastif and Ridgbacks upgraded for Mali ops :-

https://npaerospace.com/ridgback-and-ma ... operation/
7million bucks to upgrade 12 vehicles?
Surely not?

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Luke jones wrote:7million bucks to upgrade 12 vehicles?
If you look at the list, what was done, there's probably just the armour skin and the engine of the originals
... more useful on the mission than 12 brand new Foxhounds (which would have come to 10 mln)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by Lord Jim »

Mali is the sort of mission the Mastiff and Ridgeback were built for being a "Battle Bus and Mini-van", respectively.

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

And their weak point was truck-like mobility anywhere else than on roads
... Mali does not have many roads, so the mods undertaken read like that point has been taken - and actioned
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by Tempest414 »

Lord Jim wrote:I don't think 1st Division is going to be establishing "Combat" formations in the near future.
Lord Jim wrote:Mali is the sort of mission the Mastiff and Ridgeback were built for being a "Battle Bus and Mini-van", respectively.
And this is the sort of thing the 1st Division as a Light mechanised division should be undertaking by sending a battalion battle group. in this case with 12 vehicles its more a reinforced Company

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Tempest414 wrote: in this case with 12 vehicles its more a reinforced Company
There are of course many other vehicles; but yes, taking off the base element, it is a company-level deployment
Tempest414 wrote: the 1st Division as a Light mechanised division should be undertaking by sending a battalion battle group
When Light Protected Mobility was all the craze, I saved this snippet and I am sharing it without any knowledge if things have changed since, but the more interesting bit was in the foot notes. Namely that despite the pairing of the bns (on paper), in reality the reserves would be used to swell the ranks... and to do that they would of course have to train on the same vehicles. Most of which we have plenty

As we know, tables don't 'travel' on(to) these pages, so readability is not at its optimum in the below (but worth noting how the basing is across all of UK; compare with Cattering becoming the super-garrison for the readily deployable Strike Bdes):

Affiliated battalions are shown in the next table.

Light Protected Mobility Battalion – Army Reserve Affiliations
Unit Role Location Affiliated Reserve Unit
2nd Bn the Yorkshire Regiment Light Protected Mobility Catterick 4th Bn The Yorkshire Regiment (R) (York)

2nd Bn the Royal Anglian Regiment Light Protected Mobility Cottesmore 3rd Bn the Royal Anglian Regiment (R) (Bury St Edmunds)

1st Bn the Royal Irish Regiment Light Protected Mobility Tern Hill 2nd Bn the Royal Irish Regiment (R) (Lisburn)

1st Bn The Welsh Guards Light Protected Mobility Pirbright 3rd Bn The Royal Welsh (R) (Cardiff)

3rd Bn The Rifles Light Protected Mobility Edinburgh 5th Bn The Royal Regiment of Fusiliers (R) (Newcastle)

3rd Bn The Royal Regiment of Scotland Light Protected Mobility Fort George 7th Bn The Royal Regiment of Scotland (R) (Perth)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by Tempest414 »

It is also worth noting that the 7 Rifles reserve's Battalion formed a battle group and deployed to Cyprus for 6 months followed by 6 rifles reserve's battle group both using Foxhound. For me a good bit thinking by the Army with so many people off work due to covid to show the reserves are up to deployment

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

With the new (but still hazy) IR detail about the army, looks like the UOR MRAPs are going nowhere fast; gaps with unclear replacement plans bolded in the below

Challenger 2 main battle tanks; reduced in number but upgraded

Warrior infantry fighting vehicle; cancelled -putting more pressure to Boxer prgrm and added versions

FV 430 family of armored vehicles (command vehicles, 81mm mortar carriers, ambulances, and recovery vehicles);
for these uses Boxer, again, would seem like a suitable (but expensive) replacement

Stormer tracked vehicle – a protected platform for the Starstreak (HVM) for troops on the move
- gun version (of something) should augment such cover; bde level assets do not need to be armoured

Protected Mobility/ Patrol vehicles including the Foxhound, Husky, Mastiff, Panther, Ridgback, RWMIK...
- base security, CS protected mobility, light mech. - will all come calling

Reconnaissance vehicles, including the Coyote, Jackal 2, Scimitar, Spartan, Samaritan, Sultan, Fuchs...

Armoured engineering vehicles; the only category where we are dealing with 'plenty'

Left artillery out as after AS90 it is unclear whether the tube artillery assets will be any more armoured than for the crew cab; also, will GMLRS with the new, ER rockets stay tracked& armoured - or move onto something with more intra-theatre mobility... range of course somewhat compensates for needing to get somewhere fast
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by Lord Jim »

A lot of the UOR vehicles have already gone, leaving really only a number of Husky and Mastiff. There days should also be numbered with the MRV(P) on the way in theory but I cannot find much regarding this programme in the Paper, strange?

Boxer will probably replace many of the FV432 variants and some of the CVR(T) ones as well. Both these have to be replaced and as the BASV is also gone the only other option would be to use Ajax variants which is a non-starter for Boxer units.

Starstreak could be transferred to the platform chosen for the MRV(P) Phase 2, though any gun SPAA would need to be deployed down to Company level requiring a greater level of protection so again Boxer would probably be the better choice.

As for Armoured Engineering, well we do have plenty of the "Heavy stuff" but we also need lighter platforms and these again should really be based on the Boxer. These would provide the support both the Boxer and MRV(P) formations need if the heavy armour is not in the field. Some duties could be carried out by MAN 8x8 with Armoured cabs as an alternative. In addition it has already been recognised that both us and the Germans need additional M3 Amphibious Ferries as the current number is insufficient.

Finally the Artillery and deplorability will probably trump protection given the importance is has gained and its key role in future doctrine. As system like the Archer/MAN is probably going to arrive but on a long timescale which is going hurt our deplorability and the same goes for our GMLRS where at least one Regiment should re-equip with HIMARS using a MAN 6x6 or 8x8 chassis. The other could remain with the heavy tracked version for in in and around Europe. As for Extractor and its successor, well the MRV(P) should suffice either as the launch platform itself or to tow the existing trailer launched version

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Lord Jim wrote:with the MRV(P) on the way in theory but I cannot find much regarding this programme in the Paper, strange?
That much strange (indeed) that it gave rise to my post; with the gaps and how are they likely to be filled for much of this decade.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

@TD has just come out with an update (albeit focussed on Mastiff/ Ridgeback upgrades undertaken lately)
- contains in-service numbers for most
- Jackal, Panther already in service before (UORs) not covered much
- and like Panther, the figures for Foxhound missing - was Foxhound a UOR or a 'regular' proc prgrm?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by Lord Jim »

Pretty sure it was a UOR, but it is probably the safest of those purchased under the skin as it has basically taken over the roles intended for Panther, and then some.

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Just that my all-along suspicion seems to have been confirmed:
1. Warrior2 went
2. To maintain the 'fightability' of the two heavy BCTs
... half of the existing Boxer order... slurrps... is gone
3. Is it not telling that only one of the two Light BCTs has received any specs as for what they will be riding in
4. Summa summarum: the other one will be riding until close to the end of this decade in the vehicles that are the topic for this thread?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by Lord Jim »

You are probably right, though I think we may end up with more Boxers and MRV(P) will slowly atrophy, quietly out of sight as a result.

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