UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

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ArmChairCivvy
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UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Mastiffs moving on, to Divisional (Theatre) troops. And supposedly also to some Defence Engagement Bns?

MIVs will release dome Foxhounds (which will release some Jackals?)... and so on

Anyone seen an overview? I guess the refurb money was spent on Vikings (amphibious) in preference over Warthogs (better protected)
- the field is covered only in very piecemeal manner; makes one wonder if it is (partly) to avoid embarrassment
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

I copy Gabe post (partially) as a "post-it" sticker note, as it sheds some light on Foxhounds

"
Gabriele wrote:For what has transpired so far, the army goes from a plan that had 6 Warrior battalions, 3 Mastiff battalions and 6 Foxhound battalions to 4 Warrior, 4 MIV, 0 Foxhound. There is the ambition to rebuild the missing company within all Light Role infantry battalions but i don't think the manpower released from the massive de-mechanization effort is going to be enough, so even that will probably fail. And apart from capbadges preservation, i continue to find little meaning to having a whole lot of tiny light role infantry battalions. It is a 1800 army.

On ARRSE the expectation seem to be that the Protected Mobility Fleet, including Foxhound, will be parked away and (partially) crewed (perhaps converting one of the Light Cavalry regiments...?) to be a "taxi service" for deployed Light Role battalions
"

As for Mastiffs, there have been competing views.
- a quick glanve through here "https://britisharmedforcesreview.files. ... igades.pdf"
did not bring up any mentions, though

And Huskys have had some modifications of them ordered: ambulance, radio "car"?
- the first one could be an interim solution as there is a tender for a wheeled & protected ambulance running
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by marktigger »

Husky ambulance as Interim solution.......probably end up like the interim solution Humber Pigs in Northern ireland. Ambulances aren't exactly high on any commanders priority list (Except for commander Med and the RAMC commanders) so the provision of a proper protected ambulance will go on the long finger and the protected ambulance fleet will end up like its 432 predessor the oldest vehicles inservice the longest.

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by Gabriele »

And Huskys have had some modifications of them ordered: ambulance, radio "car"?
Husky variants originally included Utility, Command and Heavy Weapons, which comes with a larger protected weapon station that can take the HMG or GMG rather than just GPMG. Now it also serves as Mortar vehicle in the Light Mechanized Battalions and a number were converted into interim Light Recovery Vehicles. Don't think the british army ever purchased the ambulance variant, and due to the configuration of the vehicles purchased, i don't think they made an ambulance adaptation either.
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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Gabriele wrote:Command and Heavy Weapons
- is that one or two versions? So from "Command" to a signals specialists vehicle the step needed would be minuscule
Gabriele wrote:due to the configuration of the vehicles purchased, i don't think they made an ambulance adaptation either[/quote
- I was wondering about two things, when I saw such a mention:
1. armoured cab; the thing put on the back would need to be somewhat armoured [ as well]
2. is the back long enough to fit with a workable space, not just stretcher length. Here https://britisharmedforcesreview.files. ... igades.pdf is an example of the height difference if you take a troop carrier (troops sitting down) to a Kwik Fit, to make in into an ambulance. In a Boxer you would not see that same difference as the ambulance version is designed from ground up for such dimensions - not saying that we are getting any, any time soon at least
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by Gabriele »

Command is a variant, Heavy weapons another. It is the command variant that has the radios and a couple of radio operators, although one doubles up as gunner.

To make an ambulance you'd need to redesign the entire cab. The load carrying space and the rear seats would have to go and be replaced by a suitable ambulance space. Doable? Maybe. But easier to buy the variant, that industry already offers.
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by RunningStrong »

Gabriele wrote:Command is a variant, Heavy weapons another. It is the command variant that has the radios and a couple of radio operators, although one doubles up as gunner.

To make an ambulance you'd need to redesign the entire cab. The load carrying space and the rear seats would have to go and be replaced by a suitable ambulance space. Doable? Maybe. But easier to buy the variant, that industry already offers.
Command variants usually offer some features needed in an ambulance. Higher roofline, better power distribution system. Also it's usually the C4i rack filling one side of the load area that can be removed and replaced with a stretcher.

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by marktigger »

problem with ambulance is storage of the Ambulance module kit There's allot more in than the Wolf was designed for. Add in personal kit communications kit and vehicle kit. The medic in the back needs space to move and work on a casualty in transit and have suficient light to work by. A good suspension giving a smooth stable ride helps then you have to consider top weight

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Decider had this as a news piece in 2013:

• 100 Warthog (facing page);
• 325 Husky (above);
• 400 Mastiff (left);
• 160 Ridgback;
• 125 Wolfhound (below left);
• 400 Jackal;
• 70 Coyote (above left).

V little heard, lately, but in the same order:
- ditched since
- spread around, for various uses (the mortar use in Lt Cav was news tome; thx Gabe)
- of the next three, I was surprised that the Ridgebacks were not gifted to ANA (nothing heard since of them?)
- Jackal & Coyote: Lt Cav (the RM seem to have a few, too)

[Ocelot; too few to be the "std issue" for any type of formation. From that POV the taxi service rumour would make sense]

Then the new "protected vehicle" tender running; some 6-wheelers lkely to come in to cover gaps in the ambulance role?]
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by Gabriele »

It is not Ocelot, it is Foxhoud, and they purchased 400, paying them effectively 1 million pounds each.

Mastiff and Ridgback are used by the "Heavy Protected Mobility" infantry battalions.
Command variants usually offer some features needed in an ambulance. Higher roofline, better power distribution system. Also it's usually the C4i rack filling one side of the load area that can be removed and replaced with a stretcher.
Not in the case of the Husky, i'm afraid. It is not that different from the other two variants, and unsuited to a direct conversion to ambulance. Again, Navistar does offer an ambulance variant of the vehicle that the british army calls Husky, if only that was the problem.
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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Gabriele wrote:they purchased 400, paying them effectively 1 million pounds each.
Oh, yes, I forgot that we only buy "dogs". But taking the taxi driver (and manning the weapon station) idea further, due to its small carrying capacity, only two bns could ride in them, at any given time.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by marktigger »

for ambulances I'd rather see proper Protected Ambulances like Boxers or Ajax type vehicles for the close support sections. Maybe with Husky type vehicles replacing wolf in the CSMR rear sections and GSMR.

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by marktigger »

what's happening with the panther vehicles?

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by RunningStrong »

marktigger wrote:for ambulances I'd rather see proper Protected Ambulances like Boxers or Ajax type vehicles for the close support sections. Maybe with Husky type vehicles replacing wolf in the CSMR rear sections and GSMR.
Ajax ambulance is terribly quiet, MIV ambulance doesn't seem on the cards.

I think we'll get a MRV-P part 2 ambulance and a conversion of spare Warrior hulls.

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by marktigger »

RunningStrong wrote:
marktigger wrote:for ambulances I'd rather see proper Protected Ambulances like Boxers or Ajax type vehicles for the close support sections. Maybe with Husky type vehicles replacing wolf in the CSMR rear sections and GSMR.
Ajax ambulance is terribly quiet, MIV ambulance doesn't seem on the cards.

I think we'll get a MRV-P part 2 ambulance and a conversion of spare Warrior hulls.
would rather see the warrior hulls under going update to create 3rd Armoured Brigade and provide an Armoured infantry Bn in each Mechanised/strike brigade

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

[quote"]I think we'll get a MRV-P part 2 ambulance[/quote]

72 to 80 of those coming, not necessarily all for ambulance use. It would be logical that eaach of the units with Warrior/ Ajax/ MIV would have a few for the first step (under fire) evacuation, using the same platform that the REME tagging along is equipped to support?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

marktigger wrote:what's happening with the panther vehicles?
2 yrs ago in the MRV-P docs the users were listed as CBT/ AIR
- is there any other combat unit than the RAF Rgmnt using the Panther?

The obvious (and only?) advantage of the vehicle is that at 7 tons it can be flown to protect some air deployment as fast as the air & ground crew thmeselves. TD had picked up this further upgrade in his piece on this 2 years back :

"after an extensive TES package costing £20 million for 67 vehicles it was deployed to Afghanistan in 2009. This package included an additional roof hatch, ECM equipment, rear view camera a new engine intake and additional armour."

-----------
Good to include the Panther and the Foxhound (cats were changed into dogs, to assure no more "lemons" were coming?) in this discussion despite the fact that both went straight into "Core" w/o the UOR twist preceding
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by Lord Jim »

You never know with all the reorganisation on going the Military's ambulances could come under he NHS and/or be put out to private tender. Anything is possible given how things are being managed at the moment and it might certain degree have been brought up in a high powered brain storming session at some grossly overpaid think tank/consultancy.

What do you think the chances are that if we get involved in another shooting war and MIV hasn't been ordered, they will try to order a large number under a UOR promising to pay back the treasury as soon as they can, cross my heart etc.

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by marktigger »

Lord Jim wrote:You never know with all the reorganisation on going the Military's ambulances could come under he NHS and/or be put out to private tender. Anything is possible given how things are being managed at the moment and it might certain degree have been brought up in a high powered brain storming session at some grossly overpaid think tank/consultancy.

What do you think the chances are that if we get involved in another shooting war and MIV hasn't been ordered, they will try to order a large number under a UOR promising to pay back the treasury as soon as they can, cross my heart etc.

There is a huge difference between the CSMR ambulance and its NHS counterpart. Medical has always been a cinderella service because generals and MP don't like to think about the reality of operations and real casualties. Hence at the start of iraq and Afghanistan the AMS had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st cent I know one of the officers responsible for this and thank god he did. But the AMS were more focused on providing secondary care agency staff for MDHU's than front line medical units and operational tours were seen by many in their heirarchy as a distraction and a drain on resources. Until Tellic and Herrick. There is a huge danger that now we aren't on major operations the focus will drift back to honouring NHS service agreements being more improtant than operational support. The AMS needs to keep fighting for a protected ambulance and wold replacement.

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

You have to define "protected" as some are coming
ArmChairCivvy wrote:[quote"]I think we'll get a MRV-P part 2 ambulance
72 to 80 of those coming[/quote], but
that is not a "wole" package relative to what is needed (as you were just arguing).
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by marktigger »

so is that to replace 432 & samaritan?

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

marktigger wrote:so is that to replace 432 & samaritan?
That is the (open) question - as they clearly wont.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by marktigger »

pure ambulance wise they might if they intend to only deploy one csmr at a time

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by Lord Jim »

We obviously have the platforms available in the pipeline to meet the requirements for both armoured and protected ambulances, but I doubt we will purchase enough of either. The usual being told what we need then arbitrarily cutting the number by some random percentage to save a few pounds. The mention of the NHS was meant to be totally tongue in cheek the way.

I wonder how many assumption regarding defence spending are now being based on the zero long term operations and how this is going to change the priorities. Obviously the rise of the MIV was one result but will the Navy and Air Force gain funding again at the expense of the Army. Are we more likely to see more extensive equipped Casevac Helicopters at the expense of Armoured or protected ambulances?

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Re: UOR vehicles brought back to the "Core" - where are they now, and who is going to get hand-me-downs next?

Post by marktigger »

nope its more useful using transport helicopter that can be reroled to other things

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