Navy Command to 2030

[marktigger]

I would suggest that the Towed array on the type 31 can wait until escort numbers are in the mid 20's

Not going to get escort numbers into the 20's without it.

A frigate is not an escort of it can't detect submarine.

Thats Bullshit for a start

Type 81 was a frigate Tribal Class GP Frigates
Type 41 was a frigate Leopard class AA frigates
Type 61 was a frigate Salisbury class Aircraft Direction Frigates

None were designed as ASW vessels so Frigate doesn't = ASW vessel

Are the ANZAC and Floreal classes dedicated ASW platforms?

and as been said above the type 31 wouldn't be capable of sprint drift.

[ArmChairCivvy]

A frigate is not an escort of it can't detect submarine.

- add "useful" into that

they won't be able to do both because there won't be the numbers.

- quite right

for a carrier needing to maintain 25 kts over it's deck though

- have you checked that for the ski jump?

an effective sonar suite can be manned 24/7 and helicopter then launched as per need

- a healthy dose of common sense , to correct for Merlin "mythology"

[Spinflight]

Don't forget the Type 23 GPs, no towed array either.

[ArmChairCivvy]

They were (cheaper) to do the "Floreal" duties for the RN

Ignoring the cost element for CAPTAS4 (as a saving), the Merlin decision (addition) lifted the cost of the 8 to be equivalent of 12 as planned (the math here's 1.57 x 8)

[shark bait]

Type 81 was a frigate Tribal Class GP Frigates
Type 41 was a frigate Leopard class AA frigates
Type 61 was a frigate Salisbury class Aircraft Direction Frigates

So lets skip forward 5 decades from those examples. Today a frigate is not an escort unless it can detect submarines.

[shark bait]

Having the long ranged, well protected and autonomous asset operating alongside tankers as part of a task force that doesn't net a useful gain in capability whilst the short ranged, adequate asset tramps around the world doesn't fundamentally make sense!

Type 31 won't be fast enough to provide the sprint and drift for a carrier needing to maintain 25 kts over it's deck though. The Type 21s were certainly fast enough ( just a bit! ) but didn't carry a towed array.

That's right, now we've changed the plans it looks like we're doing that the wrong way around.

Still time to rectify that. A smaller ASW specialist T31 would work very well along side a T26 in a task group.

an effective sonar suite can be manned 24/7 and helicopter then launched as per need

Exactly, can't work just of a single helicopter. The towed array is the persistent sensor, and the helicopter is there to investigate and pin down what the sonar detects.

[marktigger]

Type 81 was a frigate Tribal Class GP Frigates
Type 41 was a frigate Leopard class AA frigates
Type 61 was a frigate Salisbury class Aircraft Direction Frigates

So lets skip forward 5 decades from those examples. Today a frigate is not an escort unless it can detect submarines.

really so the much vaunted Floreal which more than a few on here believe we should be copying or the Australian/New Zealand ANZAC class are they dedicated sub hunters?

frigate does not equal sub hunter

[ArmChairCivvy]

Exactly, can't work just of a single helicopter. The towed array is the persistent sensor, and the helicopter is there to investigate and pin down what the sonar detects.

There are even per hr cost comparisons (strange in the way that both require the frigate, most of its manning, all of its fuel burn...)
BUT the real difference is the weapons delivery range
- that is the difference (assuming detection) between killing or being killed

so the much vaunted Floreal which more than a few on here believe we should be copying

- I cant remember a single such instance/ proposition
- as a colonial sloop it is a data point for the range curve (was it 10-11k miles/ km whatever... pretty good); cost curve (mainly commercial stds); and weapons fit (to suit the duties), including a light helicopter

[Spinflight]

Still time to rectify that. A smaller ASW specialist T31 would work very well along side a T26 in a task group.

I'm sure it would, but you forget that the Type 31 isn't going to be designed for the RN's requirements, or not directly anyway.

The RN always wants long range and ASW ability, export customers want short range and anti air / anti surface in the main. Very few Navies want blue water assets unless they are looking to participate in the global game of contributing to standing task forces. Outside of Australia and Canada most navies might have a token asset or two in this class.

Designing a carrier escort in particular would be of almost zero interest. Few Navies use towed arrays as their prime mission is their own littoral, it is the brown water and relatively short endurance fleets which are the target market, towed arrays are limited in utility in shallow water.

Frankly something capable of hosting a decent cocktail party is actually more likely to sell than a sprint and drift towed array design.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Type 31 isn't going to be designed for the RN's requirements, or not directly anyway.

Where did you get this from? I have read about catering and laundry kit... ie. separating mission critical and trivial (everyday support) stds

. Few Navies use towed arrays as their prime mission is their own littoral, it is the brown water and relatively short endurance

This is very true... some navies still use rocketry, akin to Hedgehog, as the main means to prosecute

[shark bait]

really so the much vaunted Floreal which more than a few on here
believe we should be copying or the Australian/New Zealand ANZAC class are they dedicated sub hunters?

frigate does not equal sub hunter

They are not escorts, patrol ships at best. Floreal in particular is little more than a patrol boat.

Interesting the Auzzies are dropping their patrol ships for proper ASW escorts.

Likewise the French are dropping theirs for ASW Frigates, and even adding towed sonars to their patrol frigates as an interim measure before the FTI comes online.

[Spinflight]

Is that the same sonar set though? As in they are just going to cross deck them to the FTI?

The FTI isn't a cheap design, over $800m per copy for a 4500t ship.

I suspect the Type 31 is going to have to come in closer to $300m sans weapons.

[Spinflight]

They are not escorts, patrol ships at best. Floreal in particular is little more than a patrol boat.

I've been thinking about what a carrier escort would look like. One specifically designed to accompany our carriers as opposed to something like the Type 26 which has a much wider role.

It would have to be fast, carriers during flight ops want as much wind over their decks as possible so figure 25 knts into the wind. The poor escort needs to be able to sprint ahead, then drift and use it's towed array. Hence you'd want at least 33 knts and the more above that the merrier. It doesn't have to be quiet, though could be gold plated as such. Hence gas turbines are almost certain.

It also doesn't need long range, you can assume tanker support will be readily available and following the carrier. Rather than the close escort AAW role of a Type 45 or Tico these would be outer ring escorts particularly down threat and screening the approaches. The biggest threat is likely to be SSKs trying to manoeuvre into the path of the carrier. Hence AAW fit would be more towards self defence, particularly useful would be powerful point defences, if there were Vampires inbound it's job would be to get between them and the carrier.

Anti surface is unlikely to be required so we can dispense with a medium calibre gun and merely fit CIWS plus a small CAMM silo. A mix of 57mm and 30mm would probably be ideal. Asroc would be a useful capability, though the trend seems to be more towards mounting heavyweight torpedoes.

With the carrier providing several long ranged ASW helicopters it arguably wouldn't even need a helicopter pad, maybe just a Wildcat sized one though not strictly necessary. Stealth too would be almost counter productive, sadly it's job would be to eat threats that couldn't be defeated rather than to remain undetected.

What might be useful is UAV operation, especially if several could loft MAD sensors. There's various methods used to launch and recovery though the specifics of this could greatly drive ship design.

Hence the design constraints don't necessarily lead to a behemoth, something along the lines of a modern and faster Bronstein class which was sub 3000 tonnes full load.

Before anyone gets excited I'm not advocating such, merely pointing out that it wouldn't look much like a Type 26 and certainly not a Type 31.

[shark bait]

All sounds about right for a pure escort, acting within a task group it doesn't need the endurance and multi mission capabilities built in because it can rely on the task group for that.

The T31 should start with a pure ASW escort similar to the above, then add a few features to make it a capable patrol frigate, namely a mission space.

How does that sit within the fleet? Both the T26 and T31 will be capable of operating as an escort within the carrier group. Now where as the T26 will be sent off on high intensity inependant deployments such as the gulf, the T31 will pick up the the lower end deployments, such as APT(s).

[Spinflight]

I suspect if the RN were to design their own Type 31 it might look something like the above. There is however zero market for such a vessel export wise, it would be useless at anything other than blue water carrier escort especially if it didn't have a flight deck. I could make a case for it, having each carrier and a couple of those joined at the hip might even make sense. That way you'd free up the Type 26s. It wouldn't be an expensive vessel, or there's no immediately obvious reason for it to be.

With Gibraltar, Cyprus, St Helena, Bahrain, Singapore etc there isn't an obvious reason for autonomous range, though what it would actually accomplish tramping around the globe on it's own is up for debate. The 8 Type 26s on the other hand should generate 3 available at any one time, so FRE / CASD in home waters, Kipion and one other.

Add in some mission space and a flight deck / hangar as you say and you pretty much have the American LCS, or the likely 'frigate' version of such. Not the most popular ship class ever designed it has to be said, nor the cheapest. But then again they demanded 44+ knot speed which bent the design significantly.

But that isn't what the RN is going to get, assuming SJP's recommendations are taken on board. Export customers are going to want flight facilities, 4 diesels for distinctly pedestrian speed, possibly electric drive at low speeds, every gun and missile you can cram into them and go faster stripes for impressing the neighbours.

[dmereifield]

I suspect if the RN were to design their own Type 31 it might look something like the above. There is however zero market for such a vessel export wise, it would be useless at anything other than blue water carrier escort especially if it didn't have a flight deck. I could make a case for it, having each carrier and a couple of those joined at the hip might even make sense. That way you'd free up the Type 26s. It wouldn't be an expensive vessel, or there's no immediately obvious reason for it to be.

With Gibraltar, Cyprus, St Helena, Bahrain, Singapore etc there isn't an obvious reason for autonomous range, though what it would actually accomplish tramping around the globe on it's own is up for debate. The 8 Type 26s on the other hand should generate 3 available at any one time, so FRE / CASD in home waters, Kipion and one other.

Add in some mission space and a flight deck / hangar as you say and you pretty much have the American LCS, or the likely 'frigate' version of such. Not the most popular ship class ever designed it has to be said, nor the cheapest. But then again they demanded 44+ knot speed which bent the design significantly.

But that isn't what the RN is going to get, assuming SJP's recommendations are taken on board. Export customers are going to want flight facilities, 4 diesels for distinctly pedestrian speed, possibly electric drive at low speeds, every gun and missile you can cram into them and go faster stripes for impressing the neighbours.

FFBNW presumably for the RN.

Is it at all possible, theoretically, to design the T31 in such a way as to fulfil the ASW Escorting role you describe, whilst keeping it exportable? And at a reasonable cost?
After all, the T31 design is supposed fo be flexible to accommodate different weapons and sensors fit anyway. Most of the potential customers would be ok with the short legged nature of the vessel and the lack of a mission bay (as per your suggestions), and assuming space was provisioned into the design they could add a larger gun and canister launched SSM if required, and drop the towed sonar.

[Spinflight]

I'm not a naval architect but I doubt it.

The Bronstein alike I've described would probably be looking at a long and thin hull form with little stability. A towed array tug doesn't have to be a stable weapons platform itself, unless you want it to be multi-mission. But then it isn't cheap. You could change the engines but hull form and propulsion are linked so something designed to sprint relatively economically wouldn't do so well pottering around on diesels.

Cramming all sorts of weapons in for your typical third world 'I've got more missiles than you' approach would be possible but to design it to take them in the first place would mean either one or the other function would be compromised. To make it modular and flexible you'd be much better off starting with quite a beamy design, much like the Venator.

A multihull like the Triton might be a good solution for the high dash speed aspect, but they suck arse at lower speeds. Hence would be relying on it's coolness factor for exports.

I'm a little bit surprised no-one has come up with a MALE type UAV carrier based on a multihull, there's probably a good reason why not.

[dmereifield]

I'm not a naval architect but I doubt it.

The Bronstein alike I've described would probably be looking at a long and thin hull form with little stability. A towed array tug doesn't have to be a stable weapons platform itself, unless you want it to be multi-mission. But then it isn't cheap. You could change the engines but hull form and propulsion are linked so something designed to sprint relatively economically wouldn't do so well pottering around on diesels.

Cramming all sorts of weapons in for your typical third world 'I've got more missiles than you' approach would be possible but to design it to take them in the first place would mean either one or the other function would be compromised. To make it modular and flexible you'd be much better off starting with quite a beamy design, much like the Venator.

A multihull like the Triton might be a good solution for the high dash speed aspect, but they suck arse at lower speeds. Hence would be relying on it's coolness factor for exports.

I'm a little bit surprised no-one has come up with a MALE type UAV carrier based on a multihull.

Thanks

[ArmChairCivvy]

I'm a little bit surprised no-one has come up with a MALE type UAV carrier based on a multihull.

Heh-heh... until the VTOL models reach service, they come with fishing nets:
http://media.defenceindustrydaily.com/i ... AAI_lg.jpg

[shark bait]

The 8 Type 26s on the other hand should generate 3 available at any one time, so FRE / CASD in home waters, Kipion and one other.

Should be aiming for something like that. That other one would be part of the carrier group.

Add in some mission space and a flight deck / hangar as you say and you pretty much have the American LCS, or the likely 'frigate' version of such.

Not a terrible idea if you remove the silly speed requirement forcing and unrealistic light hull. Configure as an ASW combatant for the RN, or pack full of missiles for coastal navies wanting to buy a frigate.

The Bronstein alike I've described would probably be looking at a long and thin hull form with little stability. A towed array tug doesn't have to be a stable weapons platform itself, unless you want it to be multi-mission. But then it isn't cheap. You could change the engines but hull form and propulsion are linked so something designed to sprint relatively economically wouldn't do so well pottering around on diesels.

That sounds a lot like the Italian PPA, long, thin, speedy, multi mission, some even fitted with a towed array.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Not a terrible idea if you remove the silly speed requirement

- they have done that

That sounds a lot like the Italian PPA, long, thin, speedy, multi mission

- and inherently upgradable (weapos system wise)

[Aethulwulf]

I've been thinking about what a carrier escort would look like. One specifically designed to accompany our carriers as opposed to something like the Type 26 which has a much wider role.

It would have to be fast, carriers during flight ops want as much wind over their decks as possible so figure 25 knts into the wind. The poor escort needs to be able to sprint ahead, then drift and use it's towed array. Hence you'd want at least 33 knts and the more above that the merrier. It doesn't have to be quiet, though could be gold plated as such. Hence gas turbines are almost certain.

A critical factor is also how fast it can run silently during the 'drift' phase. I believe the T26 has a top silent speed of about 15 kts, compared the the T23s 12 kts. If you have a higher 'drift' speed then the sprint speed doesn't need to be as high (and high speed sprinting burns lots of fuel).

It also doesn't need long range, you can assume tanker support will be readily available and following the carrier.

The problem with this idea is the ship will end up spending much more time undertaking RAS. While undertaking RAS it is restricted in its ability to perform ASW and is more vulnerable (RAS involves sailing in straight lines for long periods). RAS can also be dangerous in high seas.

Stealth too would be almost counter productive, sadly it's job would be to eat threats that couldn't be defeated rather than to remain undetected.

I'm not sure this radical change in design philosophy would go down to well with the crew. (Assuming you could recruit a crew for HMS Certain Death). Decoys are designed to be targets; ships with sailors onboard are always going to prefer to remain undetected while using hard kill and soft kill systems to defeat threats.

[Spinflight]

12 or 15 knots isn't drifting, RAS would be a small percentage of time for either design and all escort crews are quite aware of their responsibilities.

[Aethulwulf]

'Sprint and drift' doesn't actually mean drifting!

If we assume that one of the pair of ASW frigates starts it's 'drifting' phase when it is 50nm ahead of the carrier (which progresses with an average speed of say 20 kts) and the frigate really drifts at 0 kts. After 2.5 hrs the frigate will be overtaken by the carrier. It will then have to sprint at 40 kts so that 2.5 hrs later it is 50 nm ahead of the carrier ready to start the next drift phase.

If instead the frigate 'drifts' at 15 kts, it takes 10 hrs before it is over taken by the carrier. It then has to sprint at just 25 knts for 10 hrs before being in position to start the next drift phase.

The first extreme case would use huge amounts of fuel and require a very powerful (and expensive) propulsion system.

Oddly enough, it turns out there are very good reasons why the T26 is designed with the range and propulsion system it has in order to perform ASW ops in a carrier group.

There is also a big difference between escort crews accepting their role is to protect the carrier and crews being happy to work on a ship that is actually designed to be a target.

[Spinflight]

'Sprint and drift' doesn't actually mean drifting!

No, but it doesn't mean 15 knots either.