Air Command to 2030

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AndyC
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Re: Air Command to 2030

Post by AndyC »

From Jane's in July this year
In terms of the aircraft to equip 9 Squadron, ACM Hillier made it clear that the RAF will not be buying new Typhoons. Instead, this unit and 12 (Bomber) Squadron, which will follow it at RAF Coningsby as the RAF’s second new Typhoon unit, will be populated with Typhoons that were slated for retirement but were spared during the Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR) in 2015.
As for AWACS - ideally I'd like to see an air-launched version of the Aster 30 Block 1NT with a 1,500 kilometre range but in the meantime AMRAAM D would probably do for now. As for ASRAAM - the latest Block 6 version has the capability to shoot down incoming missiles, so could be invaluable.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Air Command to 2030

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

The Hillier quote seems to point to "not too much "change in the plan that was announced hot on the heels of the SDSR?
As for AWACS
... being dead etc; the AWACS killers (those that are actually anywhere beyond trials) are modified anti-shipping missiles. So even though they have the range, how likely are they to pop up on each and every occasion?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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AndyC
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Re: Air Command to 2030

Post by AndyC »

The only thing that's admittedly a bit strange is that 12(B) is also the Joint Typhoon Squadron with Qatar https://www.janes.com/article/81984/uk- ... phoon-unit.

Now you would have thought that as Qatar are buying tranche 3 aircraft they wouldn't want to train on older more basic tranche 1 aircraft?

You also wouldn't have thought that the RAF would have wanted to combine training of Qatari's with the QRA responsibility?

So maybe 12(B) won't stay a tranche 1 Squadron and somebody else will be given that role?

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Re: Air Command to 2030

Post by SW1 »

AndyC

Jane’s or yourself are perhaps over interpreting the comments. What the ACM said was they are not buying additional typhoons they come from the 160 already ordered, that does not mean there will be sole tranche 1 typhoon only Sqns. This was at one stage considered however it has been decided that won’t happen now.

As for why awacs will be dead. If your using an amraam against a fighter type who is trying to shoot you it will likely be a SU-27 or later variant aircraft. Now the fighter engaging an awac target will be higher and much faster. Therefore he is giving his missile greater momentum at launch. In comparison the amraam will be flying up hill against a target likely running after there own missile launch. If you consider the latest Russian or Chinese aam and amraam are similar in range then he wins every day of the week and your just dead.

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Re: Air Command to 2030

Post by downsizer »

I'm pretty sure all the Sqns will have a mix of frames. None will be just T1.

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whitelancer
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Re: Air Command to 2030

Post by whitelancer »

downsizer wrote:I'm pretty sure all the Sqns will have a mix of frames. None will be just T1.
Remmember the aircraft in each Wing are pooled. I have always assumed that each Wing will rotate each of its Sqns through QRA allocating the Tranche 1 aircraft to them. The other Sqns in the Wing being allocated Tranch 2 & 3 as required.

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Re: Air Command to 2030

Post by Lord Jim »

Fitting AAMs to an AWACS is too Tom Clancy for me. Fitting sidewinders to the Nimrods was a unique experiment, not repeated by other nations. My uncle was one of the Test Pilots up a BAe Woodford where the work was done and the planes were nicknamed "The worlds largest fighter". This was an MPA where there was a chance they could bump into an enemy MPA doing the same job in the same area. AWACS rely on electronic on other counter measure for defence and obviously in times of war have a dedicated escort if an air threat exists. What we need on both the P-8 and E-7 is an AAR probe as a matter of urgency.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Air Command to 2030

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Lord Jim wrote: What we need on both the P-8 and E-7 is an AAR probe as a matter of urgency.
Yes, not all force multipliers need to be "rocket science"
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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AndyC
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Re: Air Command to 2030

Post by AndyC »

Agree totally about the AAR.

Nevertheless, USN P-8s are armed with two AMRAAM.

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Re: Air Command to 2030

Post by Lord Jim »

For the same reason we put Sidewinder on the Nimrod MR2s. Interesting that the radar on the P-8 can work with the AIM-120. But these are MPAs, the idea being knocked back is that of putting AAMs on the Wedgetail platform if we but it.

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Re: Air Command to 2030

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Good news as the price of an F-35B in LRIP 11 drops to U$115.5 million http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... ction.html The unit cost for the first large scale production order, including 30 for the UK, remains on course for the long-term target of U$108.1 million. This reduction will go a large way to offsetting the current weakness of the Pound against the US Dollar.

It's also good to know that Typhoons can operate from Kinloss and Leuchars when required even though these bases are now under the control of the Army https://www.forces.net/news/typhoons-le ... urbishment

Meanwhile the introduction of the Protector UAV has been delayed to 2024. This is probably as much to do with managing cashflow in a tight budget as anything else https://www.defensenews.com/air/2018/07 ... s-evolves/

And then the Defence Secretary announces that the UK is in negotiations to buy the E-7 Wedgetail! https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/defence ... wedgetail/

All of these announcements are now included in the main article and attachments.

It would seem to me that the large number of positive statements coming out of the MoD in recent weeks presages good news in the Modernising Defence Programme as a result of some financial relief to be provided in the upcoming Budget.

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Re: Air Command to 2030

Post by Lord Jim »

Protector was an obvious candidate for its programme to be pushed to the right as they can run the existing Reapers into the ground, hopefully not literally, and also Syria is winding down and so on. As for Wedgetail, from what I have read and heard they MoD has entered into discussions with Boeing but only to explore what shape any non competitive contract would take, and it is still possible for the contract to go out to tended to the other options that have been mentioned earlier. The one option definitely out of the running though or at least a very long shot is that from Airbus as they have little or no chance of meeting the required timescale and the airframe has not undergone any integration work with its proposed sensor suite. That leaves SAAB as the main alternative.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Air Command to 2030

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Lord Jim wrote:meeting the required timescale and the airframe [has not undergone any integration work with its proposed sensor suite. That] leaves SAAB as the main alternative.
There are two Saab offerings; the newer (based on Bombardier... hey, is that a UK a/c?) 6000
"

Saab’s new Erieye Extended Range radar, Leonardo’s Seaspray maritime search radar and a Flir Systems electro optical sensor are all part of the sensor fit for the UAE.

Anders Carp, the head of Saab’s surveillance business area, said the long-endurance aircraft was the “world’s most advanced swing-role surveillance” aircraft.

Carp told reporters the company expected to see a great demand for swing-role surveillance assets able to support all branches of the military as well as undertake civil society roles.

The UAE ordered the first two GlobalEye jets in late 2015 and followed that up with an order for a third aircraft last year. The Gulf state is calling the aircraft the-swing role surveillance system."

Should we not pay attention to NOT needing the P-8 fleet cover multiple roles... when a cheaper (also to operate) airframe would be available for the "swing"-role?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Lord Jim
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Re: Air Command to 2030

Post by Lord Jim »

Definitely worth a serious look at.

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Re: Air Command to 2030

Post by SW1 »

Off all the programs I find it odd why we wouldn’t want to accelerate protector, yes use reaper as much as possible but reaper can’t be operated in uk airspace. You would think we would want to bring protector in to allow us to build up knowledge both military and civil regulatory of operating it in uk airspace while providing a persistent surveillance capability of uk borders and sea lanes as well as affording crew training.

On awacs the RAF has in the past said the awac has a normal 18 man crew comprises four flight-deck crew, three technicians and an 11-man mission crew. The mission crew comprises a tactical director, a fighter allocator, three weapons controllers, a surveillance controller, two surveillance operators, a data-link manager, a communications operator and an electronic-support- measures operator so it would be extremely interesting to see what modern computer and mission systems will allow this to reduce along with looking at distribution of roles between platforms.

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AndyC
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Re: Air Command to 2030

Post by AndyC »

Basing

Altogether, the programme outlined in A Better Defence Estate, November 2016 and two announcements made since then will result in the disposal of fourteen airfields by 2030.

While the Strategic Approach for this rationalisation may have made sense in the world prior to Russia’s growing assertiveness this is clearly no longer the case today.

There are potentially militarily valuable airbases on the current disposal list that should be maintained at a minimum operational level. This could even mean that they are used commercially, but for purposes that do not harm their runways and buildings.

There are several criteria that could be used to assess the military value of these bases including the presence of hardened facilities such as Hardened Aircraft Shelters (HAS), a long runway of at least 2,500 metres and significant dispersal areas. There is one airbase on the current closure list that meets all of these criteria and four that meet two:

1. MoD Woodbridge Airfield. Due to close in 2027 but has eighteen HAS and a 2,700 metre runway;

2. RAF Mildenhall. Currently a USAFE base due to close in 2024 with a 2,800 metre runway. USAFE are re-considering its future as part of their response to the growing threat from Russia;

3. MoD Wethersfield Airfield. Due to close in 2020 when the Military Defence Police move to Royston but has a 2,750 metre runway;

4. RAF Scampton. Due to close in 2022 when the Red Arrows will have to be relocated but has a 2,700 metre runway and;

5. RAF Wyton. Permission given for car storage up to 2028 but has a 2,500 metre runway.

These five airbases are not situated on especially commercially valuable land and should not be sold.

As the MoD needs to reduce its running costs and maximise the proceeds it receives from selling land it should re-examine several airbases located in London and the South-East, particularly those with good transport links. Prime amongst these should be RAF Northolt. Located within the M25, next to the A40 with both mainline and underground rail services. This site could reach a premium price in the hands of the right developer.

Consideration should also be given to re-locating Air Command Headquarters from RAF High Wycombe to a geographically central, but cheaper, location such as RAF Shawbury or RAF Syerston.

Two forward air bases are currently being used in Eastern Europe. As with the Army, there is a strong case for Air Command having a presence in Germany. RAF Gutersloh was the easternmost of the former RAF airfields that operated in Germany during the Cold War. It is located just 30 miles from the Sennelager training area that will continue to be run by the Army and it has twelve HAS and a 2,250 metre runway.
New section added to main article.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Air Command to 2030

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AndyC wrote:RAF Gutersloh was the easternmost of the former RAF airfields that operated in Germany during the Cold War. It is located just 30 miles from the Sennelager training area that will continue to be run by the Army and it has twelve HAS and a 2,250 metre runway.
I wonder what those two are (as Gutersloh is certainly not in Eastern Europe)? One, for sure, is in Estonia, used for the Baltic Air Patrols (when the RAF takes its turn).
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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AndyC
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Re: Air Command to 2030

Post by AndyC »

Amari is used by the RAF in Estonia and Mihail Kogalniceanu in Romania.

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AndyC
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Re: Air Command to 2030

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Air Command Budget Priorities to 2028

This analysis is based on the MoD’s defence equipment plan 2018 which can be found here https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... -plan-2018 It examines both the Committed and Uncommitted Equipment Procurement (EPP) figure for the Air Command Top Level Budget (TLB) at March 31st 2018 and can be found on pages 26-27.

Air Command - £13.85 billion in Total Equipment Procurement.

Consolidating the budgets for Air Support, Combat Air and air weapons not included in the Complex Weapons Programme.

Committed EPP amounts to £2.8 billion consisting of £2 billion on the purchase of nine P-8 Poseidon (excluding weapons), £500 million for the final eight tranche 3 Typhoons, £110 million on a new centre wing for the Hercules C4, £100 million to complete the Atlas C1 order and £90 million on the 18th F-35B.

Uncommitted EPP amounts to a further £11.05 billion including from SDSR 2015:

• the contract to bring the number of F-35B up from 18 to 48 by 2024 at a cost of £2.67 billion – unit cost under negotiation U$115.5 million; current £/U$ exchange rate 1.30

• an additional £1.5 billion for the next 18 F-35B to enter service in 2025-27 – target unit cost U$108.1 million; £/U$ 1.30

• £2 billion for six E-7 Wedgetail AEW&C aircraft

• £1.5 billion on the Air Support to Defence Operational Training (ASDOT) contract

• £980 million for sixteen long-range Protector and eight Sea Protector UCAV – development U$420 million, manufacture of up to 26 for U$860 million; £/U$ rate 1.30

• £500 million on AMRAAAM D – order for 200 at a unit cost of U$3.25 million; £/U$ rate 1.30

• £370 million for Block 4 software upgrade to integrate Meteor B JNAAM, ASRAAM Block 6 and SPEAR 3 on the F-35B – U$486 million; £/U$ 1.30

• £320 million on the Typhoon Phase 4 Enhancements (P4E) programme including Captor E-Scan radar deployment and integration of SPEAR 3 - £3 million per tranche 2 and 3 Typhoon

• £180 million for purchase and integration of weapons for the P-8 Poseidon including 60 air-launched Harpoon II+ER anti-shipping missiles and 70 Mk54 light torpedoes with HAAWC each at a unit cost of £1 million plus £50 million to integrate Storm Shadow

• £140 million to purchase two new Shadow R2 ISTAR aircraft and upgrade the existing six

• £75 million on Meteor integration work for the F-35B.

Included in this as well is the TyTAN programme plus the retirement of sixteen two-seat tranche 1 Typhoons which are targeted to save £800 million that could be re-allocated to extras beyond SDSR 2015:

• £70 million to integrate Meteor A BVRAAM on to tranche 1 Typhoons – unit cost £2 million

• £220 million for an order of eleven Advanced Hawks for the Red Arrows – unit cost £20 million

• establishment of a tenth frontline Squadron (stated as costing £19 million per annum in a Parliamentary Answer in March 2013) at a cost of £150 million over eight years

• £130 million to integrate the Extended Range SPEAR 4 Storm Shadow on the F-35B – U$162 million; £/U$ 1.30

• £110 million to upgrade all Typhoons to carry six Meteors plus four ASRAAM in QRA and air defence roles – unit cost £750k

• £30 million for Mk 54 torpedoes with HAAWC – follow-on order for 30 to equip Sea Protector at a unit cost of £1 million

• £50 million on fitting tranche 2 and 3 Typhoons with Conformal Fuel Tanks – unit cost £500k

• £30 million to integrate four ASRAAM on the Hawk T2 – unit cost £1 million.

Air Command TLB is fully committed.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Air Command to 2030

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Reading through the linked doc (on the pages indicated) one would never know
"[F-35]Initial Operating Capability (Maritime)
scheduled for December 2020.

Continued progress on the Protector
Unmanned Air System programme, the
replacement for Reaper, which is on
schedule to deliver in the first half of the next
decade."

that Protector has been shunted to the right by two years... but hasn't the F-35 IOC been moved in the opposite direction?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Air Command to 2030

Post by Lord Jim »

An interesting read but I worry at the repeated use of the word "Efficiencies" throughout the whole document. I translate this into lack of funding. The Government really needs to sort his out with the MDP removing the financial risk from the equipment plan as long as the MoD can properly justify its requirements.

One thing spotted was a reference for using the Lightweight Multi-role missile for VSHORAD, so is this going to compliment or supplement the Starstreak HVM. We already know they can both use the same launcher, but this is news to me. The other was the mention of £1.5Bn to cover the T-31e programme!

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Re: Air Command to 2030

Post by Caribbean »

What's the purpose of ASRAAM on the Hawk T2? Babysitting the P8s/ MRTT? Another 11 Hawks for the Red Arrows should keep the production line ticking over a bit longer as well.
Also interesting is money to raise the F35B numbers to 48 by 2024 and a further 18 F35B in 2025 to 2027 (so 66 in total, all F35B). An indication of current intent, if not a cast-iron commitment. After that I would be OK with a couple of squadrons of F35A for the RAF (then a few more F35B for 6 full FAA squadrons :D )
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Air Command to 2030

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Lord Jim wrote: One thing spotted was a reference for using the Lightweight Multi-role missile for VSHORAD, so is this going to compliment or supplement the Starstreak HVM. We already know they can both use the same launcher, but this is news to me.
To me, too, as my understanding has been that LMM is only effective against helicopters?
Caribbean wrote:a further 18 F35B in 2025 to 2027 (so 66 in total, all F35B)
Ties in well with the fully operational date for CEPP being stated as 2026. I was wondering where that came from (other than PoW coming in, with a lag to its sister ship), esp. when "F-35Initial Operating Capability (Maritime)
scheduled for December 2020... 6 (5) years earlier.
- beats the first T-26 being delivered in 2015 and in service two years (18 mths?) later
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Air Command to 2030

Post by Defiance »

Caribbean wrote:What's the purpose of ASRAAM on the Hawk T2? Babysitting the P8s/ MRTT? Another 11 Hawks for the Red Arrows should keep the production line ticking over a bit longer as well.
This is fantasy fleet BS with spare RAF money, these are not confirmed plans. That entire wish list is hopes and dreams (in fact, quite a lot of this thread is just hopes and dreams).

Advanced Hawk, Sea Protector, Typhoon CFTs and ASRAAM on Hawk T2 have all popped out of the OPs imagination, they don't get a mention in the document

To be honest, at this point there's so many 'wish lists' in this thread it may as well be titled Fantasy Fleet as it's not based in policy or strategy existing in reality.

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Re: Air Command to 2030

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Defiance wrote:not based in policy or strategy existing in reality
We do have a thread for the official review, too. For a good reason it is not split by command, as the MDP has still to enter into the hard decisions (capability and capacity trade-off's).
- they may well have... but haven't told anybody! Indeed, the PUS first sent a letter and then had a meeting with the Commands, about the"virtue" or remaining 'tight lipped'. Frustrating :( for this "place" , sure
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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