Your National Naval Requirement

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Aethulwulf
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Re: Your National Naval Requirement

Post by Aethulwulf »

My suggested requirements would require quite an uplift in funding during the next 15-20 years. Ignoring this unlikelihood, I would suggest:

By 2030, the fleet to be able to, while maintaining CASD, routinely generate two maritime task groups consisting of either:
•Two carrier strike groups, or
•One carrier strike group and one amphibious assult group

By 2035, the fleet to be able to, while maintaining CASD, routinely generate three maritime task groups consisting of:
•Two carrier strike groups and one amphibious assult group

Each carrier strike group should be capable of generating at least 72 sorties a day and sustaining this over a period of 60 days using resources organic to the Group. With external logistic supplies and support, the Group should be able to sustain operations for a period of 180 days. The Group should be able to operate in high threat environments against Tier 1 opponents  (e.g. Russia, China ) without reliance on protection or escort vessels from other nations. The Group must be capable of interoperability with the US, France and other potential coalition partners. When not conducting operations against Tier 1 opponents, elements of the Group (e.g. FF, DD, SSN) should be available for independent operations.  When no operations are being conducted, one carrier group must be held at 5 days notice to deploy.  The second carrier group should be at at 60 days notice to deploy (or 180 days while in refit). With sufficient notice, the second Group should be able to either deploy to an operational area independent of the first Group for 180 days, or deploy to relieve the first Group to maintain a continuous carrier operation for up to 360 days.

The amphibious assult group should maintain at 20 days notice the capability to:
•transport a lead Commando group with an EMF and TAG of 3200 PAX with 7500 LIM of vehicles and equipment
•at a time and a place of our choosing, conduct a simultaneous assult by air and sea by 2 full Commando companies  (1 air, 1 sea) in a single lift
•within a 6 hour period deliver 4 full commando companies ashore (2 air, 2 sea)
• sustaining this operation over a period of 60 days using resources organic to the Group.
•With external logistic supplies and support, the Group should be able to sustain operations for a period of 180 days.
•The Group should be able to operate in high threat environments against Tier 1 opponents (e.g. Russia, China ) without reliance on protection or escort vessels from other nations.
•The Group must be capable of interoperability with the US, France and other potential coalition partners.

In addition, the amphibious assult group should maintain at 90 to 180 days notice the capability to:
•transport a full Commando brigade with an EMF and TAG of 5500 PAX with 12000 LIM of vehicles and equipment
•at a time and a place of our choosing, conduct a simultaneous assult by air and sea by 4 full Commando companies  (2 air, 2 sea) in a single lift.
•within a 6 hour period deliver 12 full commando companies ashore (6 air, 6 sea)

seaspear
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Re: Your National Naval Requirement

Post by seaspear »

Though submarines may not exert control per se , they can be used as denial as per Falklands era where the Argentine navy did not engage. I would hope any defense minister would be briefed on current and future technologies , certainly an Australian one would have knowledge of D.S.T.O and A.M.R.L .

Pymes75
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Re: Your National Naval Requirement

Post by Pymes75 »

High Level:

1. CASD (it underpins everything else which, IMHO, is really why 'reds' like Corbyn want to get rid of it)

2. Maintain SLOC to/from the UK and where necessary, through critical trade routes.

3. Project sea power, scaled according to the following set of criteria:

- Deploy an independant (UK only) Task Group capable of small-scale contingency operations such as NEOs, crisis support for allied nations, criminal interdiction (anti-piracy/anti-terrorism/narcotic raids, etc), peacekeeping and humanitarian ops.

- Lead an international (non-US) Task Force capable of medium-scale operations where we might face a capable but strategically limited adversary.

- Fully participate in a US-lead major combat operation, supported by allied assets (surface combatants, amphibious forces and auxiliaries).

Ron5
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Re: Your National Naval Requirement

Post by Ron5 »

Pymes75 wrote:2. Maintain SLOC to/from the UK and where necessary, through critical trade routes.
Yikes! How big a navy do you need for that???

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malcrf
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Re: Your National Naval Requirement

Post by malcrf »

shark bait wrote:defiantly needs
?

Pymes75
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Re: Your National Naval Requirement

Post by Pymes75 »

Ron5 wrote:
Pymes75 wrote:2. Maintain SLOC to/from the UK and where necessary, through critical trade routes.
Yikes! How big a navy do you need for that???
Again, this is scaled according to the effort: patrol UK waters, rebuild our ASW patrols in the North and Irish Sea and work with allies to secure choke points such as the Horn of Africa and the Straits of Hormuz.

Ron5
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Re: Your National Naval Requirement

Post by Ron5 »

So could be 3 frigates or 100. I had a feeling this thread was trying to build a foundation to avoid such ambiguities :-)

marktigger
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Re: Your National Naval Requirement

Post by marktigger »

Ron5 wrote:So could be 3 frigates or 100. I had a feeling this thread was trying to build a foundation to avoid such ambiguities :-)
i would suggest about double the escort fleet so about 36-38 escorts

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Re: Your National Naval Requirement

Post by marktigger »

arfah wrote:
marktigger wrote:i would suggest about double the escort fleet so about 36-38 escorts
The RN will need a lot of press gangs.

maybe maybe not the large scale redundancies post cold war have made the population look at the armed forces in a different light. If we'd maintained a fleet of around that then recruiting might currently be tough as the economey is fairly strong but the baseline would still be there. especially if it was still a good career with opportunities to see the world, get a trade and a good pension at the end of a career.

bobp
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Re: Your National Naval Requirement

Post by bobp »

"i would suggest about double the escort fleet so about 36-38 escorts"

Really and the money would come from where exactly? First to build the ships and then to crew and run them.

marktigger
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Re: Your National Naval Requirement

Post by marktigger »

bobp wrote:"i would suggest about double the escort fleet so about 36-38 escorts"

Really and the money would come from where exactly? First to build the ships and then to crew and run them.
the problem with the current fleet is you have 2 types in service leading to everything needing replacing at same time all the type 23's need replacing now with a larger more diverse fleet you can have an almost continous build program spreading costs. Whereas in 30 or so years we hit the same problem when the type 26 & 31 need replacing at the same time 10 years after the type 45 needs replacing. Poor management has lead us to this point. And as we are finding its more expensive. And again creating crew from scratch is more expensive than having a larger number in your establishment

bobp
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Re: Your National Naval Requirement

Post by bobp »

Creating a crew from scratch is almost impossible. It requires years to train a mechanical or electronics engineer. We need to invest in our education system, bring back technical colleges to teach engineering skills to the young school leavers, bring back proper apprenticeships and finally make it less easy for people to just sit at home drawing benefits unless there is a genuine need. As for the ships, I am not a fan of just one company holding the government to ransom, by demanding 200m just to keep their shipyards open. Nor am I a fan of the four Nuclear Subs being paid for out of the defence budget, which at a supposed 2 percent means our Forces are working on a shoestring to have a meaningful defence.

marktigger
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Re: Your National Naval Requirement

Post by marktigger »

bobp wrote:Creating a crew from scratch is almost impossible. It requires years to train a mechanical or electronics engineer. We need to invest in our education system, bring back technical colleges to teach engineering skills to the young school leavers, bring back proper apprenticeships and finally make it less easy for people to just sit at home drawing benefits unless there is a genuine need. As for the ships, I am not a fan of just one company holding the government to ransom, by demanding 200m just to keep their shipyards open. Nor am I a fan of the four Nuclear Subs being paid for out of the defence budget, which at a supposed 2 percent means our Forces are working on a shoestring to have a meaningful defence.
correct on all accounts......and the armed forces could attract a whole generation of recruits using Apprenticeships

bobp
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Re: Your National Naval Requirement

Post by bobp »

An immediate increase in manning therefore so that as the new Frigates come into service there will be sufficient crew members available. Secondly it will alleviate the problem of crews being away from home for long periods.

Spinflight
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Re: Your National Naval Requirement

Post by Spinflight »

Somehow missed this thread...

1. Protect and maintain the CASD
2. Patrol, monitor and assist within our EEZs ( expand to our right under UNCLOS)
3. In partnership with our allies maintain freedom of navigation for our SLOCs, particularly of choke points.
4. Maintain a naval force capable of projecting timely weight of accurate fires 30nm inland, and precision strike 150nm inland within the European and Middle Eastern regions.
5. Maintain amphibious forces capable of landing, supporting and sustaining 2 Brigades within the European and Middle Eastern regions. ( means ability to take, hold and repair a reasonable sized port chaps)
6. Carry out defence diplomacy worldwide.
7. Assist in humanitarian aid and disaster relief within the commonwealth.
8. Maintain and progress that part of the UK's Industrial base which sustains it's maritime ambitions
9. Educate the public on the importance of maritime power.
10. Provide training and a visible show of support for our Allies worldwide.

As to concurrency 1, 2, 3 and 4 no matter what else is going on.
5, 6 and 7 provided the first 4 are met in order of priority but not concurrently.
10 dependant upon previous priorities and commitments.

Oh and I'd want at least a battalion of armour included in 5.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Your National Naval Requirement

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Ron5 wrote:
Pymes75 wrote:2. Maintain SLOC to/from the UK and where necessary, through critical trade routes.
Yikes! How big a navy do you need for that???
USN has gone from a 600 ship navy to a 1000 ship strategy - theyve only built a third of "it" and are integrating more tightly with the key allies (who are different for different fleets, but for instance unifying the command for the Pacific and Indian Oceans is a reflection of this)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Your National Naval Requirement

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Spinflight wrote:2 Brigades within the European and Middle Eastern regions. ( means ability to take, hold and repair a reasonable sized port chaps)
- Not realistic for Europe as on the day it would rain more Iskanders than the number of V1s used to bombard Antwerp (to deny resupply of the landed force; out of memory it was 1500 which left this side of the Channel much less pock marked)
- meaning all landings would have to be quick and distributed jobs
Spinflight wrote:and I'd want at least a battalion of armour included in 5.
- so we will have to invite the French Marines to the party (as they maintain the capability; a properly protected Ch2... again talking about the European scenario... weighs in at 75 metric, currently)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Spinflight
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Re: Your National Naval Requirement

Post by Spinflight »

I'm not thinking of the Balkans in terms of Europe. Leave that mess to Germany et al.

Our cold war role of Norway etc though should be kept under watchful eye.

How dare you accuse me of inviting the French! I've never been so insulted....

No as I mentioned I'd prioritise the ability to take and repair a suitable port rather than hoping for an undefended sandy beach with the right slope etc etc. It's the only way you'll get armour into the fight, though clearly you'd need fairly overwhelming firepower to win a fibua scenario from offshore.

The OP did mention 30 years time and frankly with the growth of settlements around the world I rather expect the entire coastline of most places to be shanties at the very least. Ship to shore connectors assume an awful lot and I'm not convinced that you could logistically maintain a decent force unless magical circumstances prevailed. Hence for amphibious to be useful you need that port and you need it quickly.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Your National Naval Requirement

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Spinflight wrote:Our cold war role of Norway etc though should be kept under watchful eye.
That (and the Baltic shoreline/ islands) was what I had in mind. Norway has over 25 000 km of coast line (the slope could be a problem at times!). The Dutch JSS is now paired with not only their own Marines, but also with the marines element of the Belgian paracommando bde and a medical detachment from Germany
... just wondering if the USMC still has units earmarked for the area (they do train there)

There was even talk of relocating the "Cold" Commando from Condor Barracks, Arbroath, Scotland to the vicinity of the others, to make rotations easier to manage
- I guess that thinking was driven by the campaign in Afghanistan
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Spinflight
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Re: Your National Naval Requirement

Post by Spinflight »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:... just wondering if the USMC still has units earmarked for the area (they do train there)
Largeish exercise with them there at the moment I think, including their Armour. And the USMC really doesn't have much armour so I'd venture to guess that it does indeed figure in the plans.
ArmChairCivvy wrote:That (and the Baltic shoreline/ islands) was what I had in mind. Norway has over 25 000 km of coast line
Baltic smaltics. Keep that for your national focus, wouldn't touch it with a bargepole. If Poland and Germany can't handle it then we aren't going to make the difference.

Norway also has deliberately poor infrastructure in areas to make any action logistically difficult. Hence seaborne supply is highly likely. Hence once again, take or deny a port.

marktigger
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Re: Your National Naval Requirement

Post by marktigger »

it makes sense basing the entire brigade together in the southwest close to where their ships and aircraft are based. Along with their HQ & Training establishments.

Spinflight
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Re: Your National Naval Requirement

Post by Spinflight »

I thought we had a railhead / dock in the South West specifically so that forces could be freighted around.

Can't for the life of me remember where though. :?

andrew98
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Re: Your National Naval Requirement

Post by andrew98 »

Marchwood?

Spinflight
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Re: Your National Naval Requirement

Post by Spinflight »

Thank you, that would be the badger. :)

marktigger
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Re: Your National Naval Requirement

Post by marktigger »

if they sorted out the A38 & railway line they could move it into Plymouth

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