Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

Contains threads on British Army equipment of the past, present and future.
seaspear
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

Post by seaspear »

The use of deployable artillery to quickly counter a cruise missile is interesting but left me wondering how the sensors were arranged for said cannon to target the missile

bobp
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

Post by bobp »

seaspear wrote:The use of deployable artillery to quickly counter a cruise missile is interesting but left me wondering how the sensors were arranged for said cannon to target the missile
The Artillery batteries had no problem during WW2 knocking down the flying bombs the Germans sent over. Not that many got through. However knocking out a supersonic missile would be more difficult.

RunningStrong
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

Post by RunningStrong »

So to quickly recap on DSEI 2021, companies setting our their stalls for 155mm artillery competition for Truck v AFV Wheeled v AFV tracked.

Oh and there was an M777 in the lobby.

HX3



HX2 Archer



NEXTER brought a gun on a truck and a boxer...



Both sides were informally slinging much at the other's concepts.

seaspear
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

Post by seaspear »

bobp wrote:
seaspear wrote:The use of deployable artillery to quickly counter a cruise missile is interesting but left me wondering how the sensors were arranged for said cannon to target the missile
The Artillery batteries had no problem during WW2 knocking down the flying bombs the Germans sent over. Not that many got through. However knocking out a supersonic missile would be more difficult.
I'm not sure how many shells had to be fired to get a doodlebug but often those batteries were sited under such flight paths they did have radar warning of these back then the guns slaved to the then radar with fuse type ammunition
I would add these two articles in understanding my query about a sensor arrangement for a mobile gun just wheeled off a plane which seems to suggest some time may be needed
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboo ... ame-182186
https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... d-missile/

bobp
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

Post by bobp »

Sounds like there must have been some serious computing power involved, and tracking capability as well as possibly a steerable shell with a kinetic warhead. Not sure how this would work in real battlefield conditions though.

Lord Jim
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

Post by Lord Jim »

Given that it has repeatedly been stated that Precision Forces is one of the Army's highest priority programmes it is amazing how quite things have been since the announcement of the upgrade to the Army's M270 GMLORS vehicles. The Army is spoilt for choice with platforms that are continually being tested and improved yet not a peep from the MoD or Government. I was expecting more announcements from DSEi 2021.

Ron5
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

Post by Ron5 »

Lord Jim wrote:Given that it has repeatedly been stated that Precision Forces is one of the Army's highest priority programmes it is amazing how quite things have been since the announcement of the upgrade to the Army's M270 GMLORS vehicles. The Army is spoilt for choice with platforms that are continually being tested and improved yet not a peep from the MoD or Government. I was expecting more announcements from DSEi 2021.
Walking on eggshells until Ajax fiasco is sorted.

Lord Jim
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

Post by Lord Jim »

All the more reason to put the poor animal out of its mystery in my opinion. For the numbers required, around 100 SP Guns for three Regiments, training and attrition spares, any platform chosen should have minimal UK specific equipment installed, mainly Comms. Given the importance of the programme, the level of UK content should be a low priority, the first two attempts at revitalising the UJK's AFV manufacturing capacity have been far from successful and until we see how Boxer and Challenger 3 programme evolve, getting the kit should be the priority. A ten year programme may seem a long time but it will be 2030 begore you know it or more accurately the MoD knows it.

northumbriangunner
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Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

Post by northumbriangunner »

THE INTEGRATED REVIEW
LT GEN SIR ANDREW GREGORY KBE CB DL MASTER GUNNER ST JAMES’S PARK

https://www.thegunners.org.uk/blog/arti ... ted-review

REGULAR
    1st Regiment RHA will gain an AJAX tactical group battery.
      3rd Regiment RHA will re-role to the Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS), with two batteries equipped with M270 launchers, one of which also has a JACKAL tactical group. A third M270 battery will be provided by 101st Regiment RA on deployment.

      4th Regiment RA will gain a gun group, building on what is currently a tactical group battery.

      5th Regiment RA will resubordinate to the Deep Reconnaissance & Strike Brigade Combat Team.

      7th (Parachute) Regiment RHA will gain a gun battery, including a tactical group, and a tactical group battery.

      19th Regiment RA will gain an AJAX tactical group battery.
        26th Regiment RA will become a three battery MLRS Regiment, with two batteries equipped with M270 launchers, one of which also has an AJAX tactical group, and an AJAX tactical group battery. A third M270 battery will be provided by 101stRegiment RA on deployment.
          32nd Regiment RA will retain its third MUAS battery and gain a fourth MUAS battery.

          RESERVE

          101st Regiment RA will now provide a formed battery each to 3rd Regiment RHA and 26th Regiment RA, having previously provided individual M270 detachments and reinforcements.

          103rd Regiment RA will be aligned to Light Brigade Combat Team 2 and be expected to deploy as a fully constituted regiment, reinforced by 104th and 105th Regiments RA where appropriate.

          104th Regiment RA will provide individual reinforcements to 1st Regiment RHA and 19th Regiment RA in the Deep Reconnaissance & Strike Brigade Combat Team.
            105th Regiment RA will provide formed detachments as guns 7 & 8 in each gun battery of 4th Regiment RA who are supporting Light Brigade Combat Team 1.

            106th Regiment RA will continue to provide individual reinforcements to 7th Air Defence Group.
              A Battery HAC will provide formed detachments as guns 7 & 8 in each gun battery of 7th (Parachute) Regiment RHA.
                Patrols Squadron HAC will provide Special OP patrols to the Army Special Operations Brigade and continue to provide patrols to 4/73 Bty RA.

                RunningStrong
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                Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

                Post by RunningStrong »

                104RA (light gun) providing individuals as support to two AS90 regiments, and support 103RA in providing a regiment strength.

                Seems like a bum deal...

                Lord Jim
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                Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

                Post by Lord Jim »

                Totally not overwhelming.

                Lord Jim
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                Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

                Post by Lord Jim »

                Considering the Light Gun is out ranged by nearly every weapon an opposition of any quality would use, we might as well use lighter, more portable 120mm mortars to support our light troops. Yes this to will be out gunned by the opposition but they would be easier to move around, have a far greater variety of ammunition, and the HE gives more bang per shell and a greater effect due to angle of impact. This also helps in build up or forested areas. Either a towed of SP weapon would do, and would still be operated by the RA/RHA. Hopefully more capable precision fires would be provided by 155mm SP platforms, though access to the M270 GMLRS may be limited if at all. It would be far easier to deploy a Battery of wheeled 155mm Guns that one of tracked M270s due to the significantly reduce logistical footprint and the fact that no HETS would be required together with their support requirements.

                BB85
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                Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

                Post by BB85 »

                The cuts to the army over the last 20 years are impossible to paper over. The 105 light gun is completely obsolete against any professional army and the only reason it wasn't replaced 15 years ago was budget cuts and CVRT replacement taking top priority. It's why the complete farce that was FRES /AJAX and Warrior is so hard to tolerate because it has completely screwed up every other procurement project that should have been funded and order over the next 10 years

                Lord Jim
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                Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

                Post by Lord Jim »

                Don't forget being focused on COIN.

                RunningStrong
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                Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

                Post by RunningStrong »

                BB85 wrote: 28 Nov 2021, 21:29 The cuts to the army over the last 20 years are impossible to paper over. The 105 light gun is completely obsolete against any professional army and the only reason it wasn't replaced 15 years ago was budget cuts and CVRT replacement taking top priority. It's why the complete farce that was FRES /AJAX and Warrior is so hard to tolerate because it has completely screwed up every other procurement project that should have been funded and order over the next 10 years
                I'm unsure how you can paint the L118 as obsolete, and particularly a British problem, when the same basic weapon is still in use with America today, with largely the same performance.

                The L118 could be easily upgraded with the numerous off the shelf fuzes.

                mr.fred
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                Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

                Post by mr.fred »

                BB85 wrote: 28 Nov 2021, 21:29 The 105 light gun is completely obsolete against any professional army
                Like the US Army, whose M119 is outperformed by the L118?
                BB85 wrote: 28 Nov 2021, 21:29 the only reason it wasn't replaced 15 years ago
                With what?

                BB85
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                Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

                Post by BB85 »

                If the money was available I'm sure they would have replaced the L118 with the M777. Now what is likely to happen is we will lose both AS-90 and the towed 105 guns to be replaced with a single option.

                Lord Jim
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                Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

                Post by Lord Jim »

                The US Army is replacing the majority of its M119s with the M777, precisely because it is outclassed by the opposition as they see it and it lacks the flexibility of ammunition the large weapon has. If the US Army cannot afford or be bothered to develop new rounds for its 105mm M119s it is no wonder we haven't. Against any peer opponent a battery of 105mm Might Guns is living on borrowed time as soon as it opens fore if not sooner, and a counter battery strike of MLRS of 122mm calibre or greater will be on the way damn quickly and accurately as precision rockets of those calibres are in general use on the other side for just that purpose. To survive a Light Gun Battery will have to be mobile, and therefore not providing support, instead do a good job at tying up an opponents MLRS unit. Of course there could simply be the fact that the UAV tracking the Battery is armed and does the job itself.

                A simple towed 120mm Mortar can be in action in less than a minute, fire six or more rounds and be limbered in less than a minute, the whole operation taking no more than four minutes with a well trained crew. The cradle design for teh Mortar is basically the same as developed by the Russians during WW2 and used by many nations since, great piece of kit, you should easily be able to find a video of such a weapon on YouTube.

                However if we want to increase the firepower of our Artillery as well as its deploy ability and ability to support both light and heavy Combat Teams we need both wheeled gun and MLRS platforms. The old tracked M270s can be kept in Europe together with the Ajax. Create a single larger Regiments with the M270s in Poland partially manned by Reservists from the UK but mainly by troops forward deployed. The Reserves would have a number of M270s and a simulator to train on. Add to that the two planed Ajax Regiments and and Air Defence Regiment and you have the Recce Deep Strike Combat Team. But we also need at least two Regiments equipped with a wheeled 1255mm Gun platform like Archer or the Boxer RCH and a Regiment of HIMARS. These would support the two heavy and two Light Combat Teams, being attached the those Teams that are active. 16AA and the Ranger Regiment would have to share a enlarged Regiment equipped with 120mm Mortars and the Royal MArines would have their 81mm Mortars plus fire support for other sources.

                We that how I think things should be done rather than the exercise recently completed of playing musical chairs and the promise of "Sunrise", capabilities ten years down the road!

                mr.fred
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                Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

                Post by mr.fred »

                Lord Jim wrote: 30 Nov 2021, 00:37 The US Army is replacing the majority of its M119s with the M777,
                Is it? I thought that it was replacing its old (M198?) towed 155mm with the newer M777.
                Lord Jim wrote: 30 Nov 2021, 00:37 Against any peer opponent a battery of 105mm Might Guns is living on borrowed time as soon as it opens fore if not sooner, and a counter battery strike of MLRS of 122mm calibre or greater will be on the way damn quickly and accurately as precision rockets of those calibres are in general use on the other side for just that purpose. To survive a Light Gun Battery will have to be mobile, and therefore not providing support, instead do a good job at tying up an opponents MLRS unit. Of course there could simply be the fact that the UAV tracking the Battery is armed and does the job itself.
                That’s true of any artillery piece and worse for ones that are larger and heavier (M777) since they take more effort to emplace and displace and worse for shorter range guns (120mm mortar) since they need to be closer to their target so there are fewer places they can be.

                RunningStrong
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                Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

                Post by RunningStrong »

                BB85 wrote: 29 Nov 2021, 23:06 If the money was available I'm sure they would have replaced the L118 with the M777. Now what is likely to happen is we will lose both AS-90 and the towed 105 guns to be replaced with a single option.
                The budget would need to include more tractor vehicles, more resupply vehicles and greater heavy lift capability.

                We're not going to lose 105 anytime soon, at least not without a towed mortar replacement.

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                Tempest414
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                Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

                Post by Tempest414 »

                For me we need

                3 x regiments of self propelled guns 2 x full time , 1 Reserves
                3 x regiments of MLRS same as above
                3 x regiments of Light gun ( 1 Air assault , 1 commando , 1 Reserves
                3 x regiments of Air defence
                2 x regiments of battle field UAV's

                I don't see the light gun going anywhere on top of this we need to get self propelled 120 mm mortars into all our mech infantry units

                sol
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                Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

                Post by sol »

                Tempest414 wrote: 30 Nov 2021, 12:48 For me we need

                3 x regiments of self propelled guns 2 x full time , 1 Reserves
                3 x regiments of MLRS same as above
                3 x regiments of Light gun ( 1 Air assault , 1 commando , 1 Reserves
                3 x regiments of Air defence
                2 x regiments of battle field UAV's

                I don't see the light gun going anywhere on top of this we need to get self propelled 120 mm mortars into all our mech infantry units
                So ... not all brigades would be self reliable. What would support 4th and 7th Brigade Combat Team in that case? Seems like that even Army forgot about 4th BCT as it does not have any regular artillery unit by new orbat, only a TA one. Beside Deep Recce BCT, Army will have only 5 deployable brigades and they can't even provide one artillery regiment for each one.

                RunningStrong
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                Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

                Post by RunningStrong »

                Tempest414 wrote: 30 Nov 2021, 12:48 For me we need

                3 x regiments of self propelled guns 2 x full time , 1 Reserves
                3 x regiments of MLRS same as above
                3 x regiments of Light gun ( 1 Air assault , 1 commando , 1 Reserves
                3 x regiments of Air defence
                2 x regiments of battle field UAV's

                I don't see the light gun going anywhere on top of this we need to get self propelled 120 mm mortars into all our mech infantry units
                Couple of issues. Yon your light gun setup you'd need the reserve unit to be AACC or Para hat to provide meaningful support to the regular units. Possible, but difficult.

                I don't think we'll see a reserve unit using SPG. I know we have Reserve units on MLRS but the burden is huge. Have reserve units running light guns, they can still be familiar and easily cross-trained with the SPG crews to act as surge numbers for additional Batteries. It might seem pointless with future SPG being autoloaded, not sure. I just can't see a reserve unit handling Boxer/MAN and 155 artillery pieces, at least if they're any distance from a regular artillery unit (death of 104 perhaps?).

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                Tempest414
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                Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

                Post by Tempest414 »

                I would be more than happy to 3 x full regiments on the SPG and have 5 x regiments 2 full time i.e 16AA and Commando support and 3 reserves on the light gun

                Lord Jim
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                Re: Royal Artillery/Royal Horse Artillery future developments

                Post by Lord Jim »

                Yes the M777 is replacing more and more M119s in Infantry and Light Armour Brigades due to its greater range, and there are developments for teh M777 like new ammunition and longer barrels to increase this even further.

                I agree towed 155mm guns are just as vulnerable to counter battery as their smaller cousins, but with the increased range of at least 60km the number and type of weapon system able to carry out such a mission is less for starters. With towed 120mm Mortars it is the speed they can be brought into and out of action that improves their survivability whist being able to provide more effective fire support to the troops. WE will most likely retain the Light Gun beyond the timeframe we should as the powers that be still are not placing enough priority and importance on renewing the Army's long Range Fire capability. It is all well and good buying the American's new long range rocket to fire from out M270 GMLRS Launchers, but this isn't the Holy Grail some seem to think it is. We still need a modern SP 155mm platform as well as a more deployable platform able to fire these new fan dangled long range telegraph poles. A contract for a new 155mm platform should have been let the same time the one for the upgrade of the M270 was. Pardoning the Pun but this isn't rocket science, and the money for new transformational programmes was there. All we ahve at present is the Challenger 3 programme and an awful lot of hot air about future sunrise capabilities that may mature within the next ten years. I am not holding my breath. Ww just have to hope certain personalities and nations also feel like taking a break for a decade or so.

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