Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
Post Reply
abc123
Senior Member
Posts: 2785
Joined: 10 May 2015, 18:15

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by abc123 »

SW1 wrote:abc123

No it’s not that at all. All company’s particularly aerospace ones are multinational, what should happen as part of these deals is agreements to put workshare in the uk in exchange, it may not even necessarily be on the contracts that were buying but on upcoming future contracts, the biggest problem with Boeing it hasn’t done it and deliberately tried to destroy uk industry so I agree it need to change it ways. There is a balance to be struck merlin is good as an asw helicopter but expensive. It’s gearbox let’s it down. We already have 60 chinook in service and it already is the a/c of choice in the support helicopter role and the only heavy lift option out there, there has been options on other recent Boeing sole sources so there much more contentious.

There will at some point come a replacement requirement for merlin, puma and wildcat or a combination there off. A helicopter potientially optionally manned configurable to take on the various roles like Blackhawk has done for the Americans would be something that could be supplied from a uk production line, aw149 being the obvious Westland candidate or joining France in the H160m but there are others. Development would be needed and it will depend if the uk wishes to stay in the helicopter final assembly market or produce high value major subs like it has with civil aerospace.
I'm afraid that Wildcat will be probably the last UK-produced helicopter. But, I would be glad to be wrong on that issue.
About Merlin, while I agree that CEASAR has some Italian input, IMHO I would rather buy 20 Merlins and give more work for workers in UK than for Boeing and American workers. After all, if France can live without Chinooks than UK can too. Yes, they do have some problems and it's not perfest, but France is still there, their military is still there, their soldiers aren't dying en masse because they don't have Chinooks. And, UK has Chinooks, not one or two, but 60 of them. But the UK has 60 Merlins as well. And while I agree that in some things Chinhook is must have- nobody in the world will convince me that Merlins aren't good enough for SF support ( and presumably these new birds will be for that purpose ).
To conclude, just ask ourself- can you imagine France doing something like this? Buying American product when they have domestic not perfest- but good enough? I can't. And the record of last 50 years shows that their way is better, at least IMHO.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 6209
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

As discussed elsewhere the MoD cannot take jobs or financial benefits to the UK into account when letting contracts, unless there is a directive from the Cabinet changing policy.

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 2674
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

abc123 wrote:
SW1 wrote:abc123

No it’s not that at all. All company’s particularly aerospace ones are multinational, what should happen as part of these deals is agreements to put workshare in the uk in exchange, it may not even necessarily be on the contracts that were buying but on upcoming future contracts, the biggest problem with Boeing it hasn’t done it and deliberately tried to destroy uk industry so I agree it need to change it ways. There is a balance to be struck merlin is good as an asw helicopter but expensive. It’s gearbox let’s it down. We already have 60 chinook in service and it already is the a/c of choice in the support helicopter role and the only heavy lift option out there, there has been options on other recent Boeing sole sources so there much more contentious.

There will at some point come a replacement requirement for merlin, puma and wildcat or a combination there off. A helicopter potientially optionally manned configurable to take on the various roles like Blackhawk has done for the Americans would be something that could be supplied from a uk production line, aw149 being the obvious Westland candidate or joining France in the H160m but there are others. Development would be needed and it will depend if the uk wishes to stay in the helicopter final assembly market or produce high value major subs like it has with civil aerospace.
I'm afraid that Wildcat will be probably the last UK-produced helicopter. But, I would be glad to be wrong on that issue.
About Merlin, while I agree that CEASAR has some Italian input, IMHO I would rather buy 20 Merlins and give more work for workers in UK than for Boeing and American workers. After all, if France can live without Chinooks than UK can too. Yes, they do have some problems and it's not perfest, but France is still there, their military is still there, their soldiers aren't dying en masse because they don't have Chinooks. And, UK has Chinooks, not one or two, but 60 of them. But the UK has 60 Merlins as well. And while I agree that in some things Chinhook is must be- nobody in the world will convince me that Merlins aren't good enough for SF support ( and presumably these new birds will be for that purpose ).
To conclude, just ask ourself- can you imagine France doing something like this? Buying American product when they have domestic not perfest- but good enough? I can't. And the record of last 50 years shows that their way is better, at least IMHO.
I would say I understand we’re your coming from but there’s a reason we have deployed chinook to Mali at the request of the French. As for merlins suitability yes fine if cold and around the sea, but go to Afghanistan and near the summer temps and merlins troop lift capacity drops to single figures and that’s without the systems a SF chinook requires. They have to be able to operate over long range across as broad an operating environment as possible.

Yes they’ve recently bought reaper and KC-130 for SF aar.

I would add just because we may not produce a military helicopter in future we may evolve into other areas of highly priced capabilities like mini satellites and zephyr which has a production line in farnborough.

abc123
Senior Member
Posts: 2785
Joined: 10 May 2015, 18:15

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by abc123 »

Lord Jim wrote:As discussed elsewhere the MoD cannot take jobs or financial benefits to the UK into account when letting contracts, unless there is a directive from the Cabinet changing policy.
Well, in that case, why not buy everything from States? Should be cheaper... Not to mention all that great interoperability and lack of fuss aboout development and other stupid and bothersome things...
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

abc123
Senior Member
Posts: 2785
Joined: 10 May 2015, 18:15

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by abc123 »

SW1 wrote:
abc123 wrote:
SW1 wrote:abc123

No it’s not that at all. All company’s particularly aerospace ones are multinational, what should happen as part of these deals is agreements to put workshare in the uk in exchange, it may not even necessarily be on the contracts that were buying but on upcoming future contracts, the biggest problem with Boeing it hasn’t done it and deliberately tried to destroy uk industry so I agree it need to change it ways. There is a balance to be struck merlin is good as an asw helicopter but expensive. It’s gearbox let’s it down. We already have 60 chinook in service and it already is the a/c of choice in the support helicopter role and the only heavy lift option out there, there has been options on other recent Boeing sole sources so there much more contentious.

There will at some point come a replacement requirement for merlin, puma and wildcat or a combination there off. A helicopter potientially optionally manned configurable to take on the various roles like Blackhawk has done for the Americans would be something that could be supplied from a uk production line, aw149 being the obvious Westland candidate or joining France in the H160m but there are others. Development would be needed and it will depend if the uk wishes to stay in the helicopter final assembly market or produce high value major subs like it has with civil aerospace.
I'm afraid that Wildcat will be probably the last UK-produced helicopter. But, I would be glad to be wrong on that issue.
About Merlin, while I agree that CEASAR has some Italian input, IMHO I would rather buy 20 Merlins and give more work for workers in UK than for Boeing and American workers. After all, if France can live without Chinooks than UK can too. Yes, they do have some problems and it's not perfest, but France is still there, their military is still there, their soldiers aren't dying en masse because they don't have Chinooks. And, UK has Chinooks, not one or two, but 60 of them. But the UK has 60 Merlins as well. And while I agree that in some things Chinhook is must be- nobody in the world will convince me that Merlins aren't good enough for SF support ( and presumably these new birds will be for that purpose ).
To conclude, just ask ourself- can you imagine France doing something like this? Buying American product when they have domestic not perfest- but good enough? I can't. And the record of last 50 years shows that their way is better, at least IMHO.
I would say I understand we’re your coming from but there’s a reason we have deployed chinook to Mali at the request of the French. As for merlins suitability yes fine if cold and around the sea, but go to Afghanistan and near the summer temps and merlins troop lift capacity drops to single figures and that’s without the systems a SF chinook requires. They have to be able to operate over long range across as broad an operating environment as possible.

Yes they’ve recently bought reaper and KC-130 for SF aar.
If Merlin has problems with Hot and high conditions, solution is to fix these problems, not buying American right away. And Mali is pretty hot too, but the French are managing somehow. Yes, they asked for CH-47 and Globemasters, because why not ask if UK will give? It's like getting laid. :angel: And not all future conflicts will be in Afghanistan or Hindukush.
I'm not saying that the UK don't needs Chinooks, they are great helicopters, but I can't understand that it's- Chinooks or bust! If UK Armed Forces have no place for their domestic transport helicopters besides the Chinooks, then you can simply shut down former Westland plants and just buy American.
Because it seems that UK-produced helicopters can have just some niche roles, while GP helicopters must be Chinooks.It should be the opposite. And yes, the French have bought KC-130J and Reapers- but these are just small niche roles.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 2674
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

abc123

The chinook is the UKs heavy lift long range helicopter that is preferred mode of deliver for the SF there is no alternative to it. They’ve had 15 years and several upgrades to fix it and haven’t due to the fundamental change required and the certification effort it would require.

The French aren’t using merlin there using puma and super puma.

It’s what replaces merlin puma wildcat that will ultimately define the future uk military helicopter design and manufacture capability.

User avatar
Poiuytrewq
Senior Member
Posts: 2152
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Lord Jim wrote:As discussed elsewhere the MoD cannot take jobs or financial benefits to the UK into account when letting contracts, unless there is a directive from the Cabinet changing policy.
Why not?

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 6209
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

It is the policy laid down by the Treasury as to how contracts are let and what can and cannot be taken into consideration. It is just how it is. By the way it is the Treasury that contains the Government's legal branches as I found out over a decade ago.

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 6209
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

Is this order funded under the existing equipment plan or has new money been found? Whilst I can see the possible need for the "Rolls Royce" Special Forces platforms, are they for fighting past wars rather than those of he future? Could the money have been better spent elsewhere? We seem to be finding out about new programmes on a regular basis but what is the planning behind them. I thought all this was to be covered by the MDP?

serge750
Member
Posts: 823
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:34

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by serge750 »

Yes does seem strange to announce purchase decisions before the review is known...like said before very likely just to replace the early chinock airframes, but even if they are perhaps in time all chinocks will be replaced with this gold plated version ?

Still would of preferred the MV-22 osprey :shh: :thumbup:

bobp
Senior Member
Posts: 2324
Joined: 06 May 2015, 07:52
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by bobp »

I can see the need for replacing early models that are probably clapped out due to operations and age. But not understanding why they have chosen the most expensive version and by the looks of it kitted out for SF use. I thought we were skint?

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 2674
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

I think this is fighting not only the present wars but a ever increasing future type of conflict more assymetric in nature and against more peer proxies. We will see future deployments similar to Syria were by covert ground units are sent to train and fight with local ground forces supported by air and sea assets. The insertion and recovery of said groups is being done against a threat which is peer like or backed by peer forces so the delivery vehicles needs to match it. There is a continued expansion of SF and the naval and land support groups for a reason, not to mention the continued need to strike terror groups.

There is a hope to bring the remainder of the fleet up to the F standard but that will depend largely on the size of the requirement from the regular army. Helicopters are always in short supply, would be nice to,have a long term strategy to replace and standardise the helicopter fleets on 2 types chinook and something to replace the rest the rest bit could go 2 ways either something like a V-280/247 or a conventional helicopter type like aw149 or h-160.

User avatar
whitelancer
Member
Posts: 585
Joined: 05 May 2015, 22:19
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by whitelancer »

While the capabilities these helicopters will provide is welcome, is it worth the price we are paying? At £2.7 billion for 16 or around £168 million each, even with add-ons, can it be justified? In my opinion only if they are modified for operating at sea with folding rotors etcetera can they be considered any were close to being worth the money. Without that I would much prefer to spend the money elsewhere.

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 6209
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

The issue I have is that whilst expanding the capabilities of the SF is welcome, it is our more conventional forces that are in dire need of funds. That £2.7Bn could have gone alone way to rectify any number of issues we have with the current equipment programme such as providing the "Strike" Brigades with integral artillery, ensuring that there is the right capability balance in the planned medium weight AFV fleets, and last but not least it would more than double the budget for the T-31e programme! Yes the SF are effective and their achievements, when made public, are great PR both for the MoD and Government, but this simply continues trend of providing equipment to fight COIN wars that are winding down and that have greatly affected the capability of our remaining military to the extent then are barely fit for purpose in a conventional war.

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 2674
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

There not for coin wars. SF are used across the entire range of operations, there first in and remain heavily involved in any uk operation.

Chinooks operate whereever there needed included the current chinook force I would bet some in the chinook force have more sea time than some in CHF. These are replacing aircraft now 40 years old. We have 2 big flat tops chinook capable so I would expect they’ll visit.

As for the army’s and navy fleet of vehicles and ships well the navy has had 10s of billions spent on it currently running at 20b+ to acquire carriers, type 46 and type 26 or 16 ships. That’s the reason there is so little left for type 31 or that type 31 exists at all.
Likewise vehicles the amount that’s been waste to go back to what we first thought of in boxer also runs into billions. Not to mention aquiring 2 identical IFV in Ajax and warrior.

Many advocate a raiding policy as the uks default position can’t now complain when the equipment to carry out such operations is being bought or was that just code for more navy?

RetroSicotte
Retired Site Admin
Posts: 2657
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:10
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by RetroSicotte »

I heavily suspect this wouldn't have been asked for without reason.

Bear in mind we don't hear 95% of what goes on UKSF wise, or what their needs are, or how important a given tasking they need to be able to keep doing are. This matching up with the retirement of older Chinooks likely represented a politically easy way to fund them given those helos would need replacing anyway.

My only worry is these 16 are to replace 20+ or something and the total fleet of 60 will actually drop, because they never learn their lesson about having enough of something.

RunningStrong
Member
Posts: 752
Joined: 06 May 2015, 20:52

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by RunningStrong »

SW1 wrote:Not to mention aquiring 2 identical IFV in Ajax and warrior.
Probably the most ludicrous statement ever seen on these forums.

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 2674
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by SW1 »

RunningStrong wrote:
SW1 wrote:Not to mention aquiring 2 identical IFV in Ajax and warrior.
Probably the most ludicrous statement ever seen on these forums.
Well if the rumours are true and the warrior upgrade is in such a mess that it will be scraped and we will buy Ajax IFV currently being offered to Australia then I will be an entertaining explanation for the 100’s of millions wasted on warrior upgrade being explained instead of utilising the Ajax vehicle family in the first place.

mr.fred
Senior Member
Posts: 1132
Joined: 06 May 2015, 22:53
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by mr.fred »

SW1 wrote: Well if the rumours are true and the warrior upgrade is in such a mess that it will be scraped and we will buy Ajax IFV currently being offered to Australia then I will be an entertaining explanation for the 100’s of millions wasted on warrior upgrade being explained instead of utilising the Ajax vehicle family in the first place.
I’m sure we could discuss all the things you’re missing in the threads on the subject rather than here.
viewtopic.php?f=42&t=162 Ajax
viewtopic.php?f=42&t=210 Warrior - probably the right one.

abc123
Senior Member
Posts: 2785
Joined: 10 May 2015, 18:15

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by abc123 »

whitelancer wrote:While the capabilities these helicopters will provide is welcome, is it worth the price we are paying? At £2.7 billion for 16 or around £168 million each, even with add-ons, can it be justified? In my opinion only if they are modified for operating at sea with folding rotors etcetera can they be considered any were close to being worth the money. Without that I would much prefer to spend the money elsewhere.
Agreed. :thumbup:
To have them cost so much, they would have to be equipped with things that aren't really polite to mention in public.... But let's keep civility of this forum. :silent: :shh:
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

jimthelad
Member
Posts: 450
Joined: 14 May 2015, 20:16
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by jimthelad »

Ahh the much rumoured TERAUTOFIDE system. Yes that is still in the development stage.

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 6209
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

I agree the UK needed to replace the oldest CH-47s but this again smacks of the MoD going for a Rolls Royce solution, which will provide an excellent capability I am sure but is it essential? We could have gotten CH-47s with the same range for considerably less and all the bells and whistles that make the ones we are buying so capable are going to take up quiet a bit of room in the cabin, having seen inside a Pave low III a while back. Did we really need to splash out this amount of money on these platforms when other programmes are having serious issues due to lack of funding? In my mind the money could have been better spent elsewhere.

Little J
Member
Posts: 675
Joined: 02 May 2015, 14:35
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by Little J »

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ce-452889/
Earlier this year, Air Cdre Al Smith, capability air manoeuvre at the UK's Joint Helicopter Command, said that procurement of the new helicopters was at an early stage. In addition, he indicated that the UK would likely wait for delivery until the Block II variant of the Chinook was available in around 2023.

serge750
Member
Posts: 823
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:34

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by serge750 »

At first glance I would agree and say no, too pricey, buy more standard ones for the same money (or my choice would be mv22 ospeys for roughly the same money :angel: ) or buy standard one's and use the extra money on other issues the armed forces have !

perhaps the eagerly awaited review will give more details ….. :crazy: :lol:

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 6209
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: Boeing Chinook (RAF)

Post by Lord Jim »

I would still like to know where the money is coming from.

Post Reply