M777 Portee DVD 2016

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sol
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Re: M777 Portee DVD 2016

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Timmymagic wrote: 19 Sep 2022, 12:40 Ahem...
Well if Pinzgauer can tow M777, and carry ammo and 8 memebers of crew that is great. But I never saw any photo that suggest that it could, or find any text reference. Which does not mean that I can't, of course. Btw, Supecat ATMP could tow M777, al least on the road

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Seem like really capable vehicle

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Re: M777 Portee DVD 2016

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sol wrote: 19 Sep 2022, 13:42
Timmymagic wrote: 19 Sep 2022, 12:40 Ahem...
Well if Pinzgauer can tow M777, and carry ammo and 8 memebers of crew that is great. But I never saw any photo that suggest that it could, or find any text reference. Which does not mean that I can't, of course. Btw, Supecat ATMP could tow M777, al least on the road

Image

Seem like really capable vehicle
It's great that the Supacat is capable of towing the M777 at walking pace. Perfect for the crew to keep up...

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Re: M777 Portee DVD 2016

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Both the UH60 Blackhawk and the ubiquitous Hummer can be used to move the M777, but they rarely do as users find it more appropriate to use larger and heavier platforms such as the CH47 Chinook and 4t lorry. We could obviously use the former to move any Batteries that were supporting our air mobile forces, whilst we could use one of our many MAN HX 44x4 or 6x6 lorries to move the Batteries working with our Light BCTs. I am pretty sure the FAA's Merlins the support our Commando units could move the M777 by air and if fitted with skis like what can be done for the L118, a Viking should be able to tow one as well as carry its crew though a second would be needed for ammunition.

WE need to give our lighter formations greater artillery support than that provided by the L118 if they arte to be used in any peer level conflict. I would like to see the M777 used at a Brigade level with 120mm Mortars used ast Batalion level. I would retain a number of 81mm Mortars for use by usins where they are conducting a mission where the use of the heavier weapon is not possible. For very long-range fire support I am still a stong advocate os utilising a MLRS such as HIMARS, which is easier to deploy and operate in theatre and which comes with reduced running costs compared to its tracked relation.

THe need for greater indirect fire support has been recognised by the MoD and I believe the L118 has nearly reached its maximum potential with its newer HE Rounds, but it still falls short of the level needed to support our combat formations in future. There must also be some benefit from only usig tube artillery of 155mm such as the precision and sub-munition carrying rounds either already in service or under development. These advantages also apply to 120mm Mortars compared to 81mm weapon.

The weight of ammunition or more precisely the increased weight of these larger rounds will need to be addressed, though the Army already has its Palletised Loading System in place to supprt AS-90 batteries with ammunition, so there is no reason they could not support M777 batteries supporting our Light BCTs. For airmobile formation sing helicopters is an option and the use of UCVs to support mortar units should be considered. fir the movement and logistics over shorter distances. The increased weight should not however "Black Ball", the use of these more effective weapon, where there is a will the Army will find a way.

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Re: M777 Portee DVD 2016

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right now we have 3 mechanised BCTs two heavy one light we have one Air Assault BCT that only leaves one light BCT the 4th as the 19th is an all reserve unit which feed the full time units

For me as said make the 4th a Light Mechanised BCT and buy 180 Man 8X8 Archers SP Guns

As for 16XX and FCF for now they keep the L118 as these formations are used to open up weak ares and if the planners have done there jobs right they should not be going tow to tow with mass artillery and as said with the use of hero 70 and Exactor they should be able to take out what guns & MLRS are there
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Re: M777 Portee DVD 2016

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Tempest414 wrote: 20 Sep 2022, 11:05 For me as said make the 4th a Light Mechanised BCT and buy 180 Man 8X8 Archers SP Guns
Except at 33t and making use of a 8x8 mounted reloading module and an SVR in support, it's not a lightweight vehicle.

Nothing else is anywhere near that weight in that BCT.

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Re: M777 Portee DVD 2016

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Hopefully we will get some feedback from the Ukrainians as to how effective the L118 is "in the wild", as we have donated a reasonable number to them and I'm sure they are putting them to good use.
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Re: M777 Portee DVD 2016

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Caribbean wrote: 20 Sep 2022, 13:21 Hopefully we will get some feedback from the Ukrainians as to how effective the L118 is "in the wild", as we have donated a reasonable number to them and I'm sure they are putting them to good use.
L119's not L118's.

To be honest L118 and L119 have seen so much action over the years I suspect there is little we need to know about their performance.
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Re: M777 Portee DVD 2016

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Caribbean wrote: 20 Sep 2022, 13:21 Hopefully we will get some feedback from the Ukrainians as to how effective the L118 is "in the wild", as we have donated a reasonable number to them and I'm sure they are putting them to good use.
Not quite. We've sent L119, which only has 11.5km range, nearly a third less than the L118.
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Re: M777 Portee DVD 2016

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Apologies for the slip. I forgot that we supplied them from Kiwi stocks, not UK, presumably to maintain compatibility with US munitions. Even more interesting, if they are even shorter ranged.

There is a lot of talk on here about how the L118 is obsolescent because it's too short-ranged, yet the Ukrainians are using the L119 in some numbers - it will be interesting to see how they fare in high-intensity warfare against Russia. Are they as outdated as some people seem to think?
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Re: M777 Portee DVD 2016

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RunningStrong wrote: 20 Sep 2022, 12:55
Tempest414 wrote: 20 Sep 2022, 11:05 For me as said make the 4th a Light Mechanised BCT and buy 180 Man 8X8 Archers SP Guns
Except at 33t and making use of a 8x8 mounted reloading module and an SVR in support, it's not a lightweight vehicle.

Nothing else is anywhere near that weight in that BCT.
Would you not think that some of the logistics train would be coming in at 35+ ton

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Re: M777 Portee DVD 2016

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Tempest414 wrote: 20 Sep 2022, 16:39
RunningStrong wrote: 20 Sep 2022, 12:55
Tempest414 wrote: 20 Sep 2022, 11:05 For me as said make the 4th a Light Mechanised BCT and buy 180 Man 8X8 Archers SP Guns
Except at 33t and making use of a 8x8 mounted reloading module and an SVR in support, it's not a lightweight vehicle.

Nothing else is anywhere near that weight in that BCT.
Would you not think that some of the logistics train would be coming in at 35+ ton
For Light Mech BCT? I'd hope not.

MAN 4x4 is about 13t fully loaded with payload. They would provide the logistics, recovery and repair services for a Light Mechanised unit.

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Re: M777 Portee DVD 2016

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Caribbean wrote: 20 Sep 2022, 16:31 Apologies for the slip. I forgot that we supplied them from Kiwi stocks, not UK, presumably to maintain compatibility with US munitions. Even more interesting, if they are even shorter ranged.

There is a lot of talk on here about how the L118 is obsolescent because it's too short-ranged, yet the Ukrainians are using the L119 in some numbers - it will be interesting to see how they fare in high-intensity warfare against Russia. Are they as outdated as some people seem to think?
We didn't supply them from Kiwi stocks.

They're ex-Australian Army guns. Retired years ago and replaced with M777A2. They were all purchased by BAE Systems for refurbishment and resale. UK Government then purchased them from BAE for supply to Ukraine. The New Zealanders brought over 40 dial sights to replace the LINAPS units as they would be more familiar to the Ukrainians.

By all accounts to date the Ukrainian's love them. As long ranged as their previous ex-Soviet guns in practice but far more mobile and easier to handle. Shed loads of ammo available courtesy of the US as well...

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Re: M777 Portee DVD 2016

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That's it - Kiwi sights and trainers, but the guns came from commercial stocks.

However they arrived, it sounds like they are, in reality, quite useful. Perhaps they have a place after all.
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Re: M777 Portee DVD 2016

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Didn't the Australian Army have barrels or both the L118 and L119? The idea being they would use the L119 barrels for training with the cheaper US ammunition but use teh L118 barrels for actual operations with their higher performance and of course bespoke ammunition.

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Re: M777 Portee DVD 2016

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Lord Jim wrote: 21 Sep 2022, 02:55 Didn't the Australian Army have barrels or both the L118 and L119? The idea being they would use the L119 barrels for training with the cheaper US ammunition but use teh L118 barrels for actual operations with their higher performance and of course bespoke ammunition.
That was the plan originally but they never shifted from the L119.

The UK used L119 purely for training to use up the large stocks of U M1 ammunition that we held. L118 was the operational gun. By 2005 we'd run out of M1 ammunition so the L119 were retired. Most then went on to replace 25pdr guns as the blank firing salute guns around the country, so they've had a bit of a workout recently...
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Re: M777 Portee DVD 2016

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RunningStrong wrote: 20 Sep 2022, 17:23
Tempest414 wrote: 20 Sep 2022, 16:39
RunningStrong wrote: 20 Sep 2022, 12:55
Tempest414 wrote: 20 Sep 2022, 11:05 For me as said make the 4th a Light Mechanised BCT and buy 180 Man 8X8 Archers SP Guns
Except at 33t and making use of a 8x8 mounted reloading module and an SVR in support, it's not a lightweight vehicle.

Nothing else is anywhere near that weight in that BCT.
Would you not think that some of the logistics train would be coming in at 35+ ton
For Light Mech BCT? I'd hope not.

MAN 4x4 is about 13t fully loaded with payload. They would provide the logistics, recovery and repair services for a Light Mechanised unit.
So just done some digging and it seems that 102 Logistics brigade operate 4x4 , 6x6 & 8x8 MAN trucks & CST's in support of the 1st division it also seems that 6 regt RLC operate the same 4x4 , 6x6 & 8x8 mix plus CST's in support of 7th Light Mechanised or am I missing something here

It was also interesting that the 2 Para battle group had the same mix of vehicles in Logistic support for Ex Swift Response 3 months ago

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Re: M777 Portee DVD 2016

Post by SW1 »

Is it only 4x4 Mann vehicles supporting the Long range reconnaissance group in Mali?

Regardless we should be striving to keep the light mechanised forces as logistically light as possible infact we should be striving for that across the board, as it will ease deployment and sustainability.

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Re: M777 Portee DVD 2016

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Maybe 33 tons is the top end of light Mechanised the Heavy Armoured BCTs is really only that due to the 64 ton MBTs and there support units

The light mechanised will always need the 6x6 USTs & bigger MTVR CSTs to keep moving as said at this time the 102 Logistics brigade operate 4x4 , 6x6 & 8x8 MAN trucks and MTVR CSTs in support of the 1st UK Light Division

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Re: M777 Portee DVD 2016

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Tempest414 wrote: 21 Sep 2022, 09:12 So just done some digging and it seems that 102 Logistics brigade operate 4x4 , 6x6 & 8x8 MAN trucks & CST's in support of the 1st division it also seems that 6 regt RLC operate the same 4x4 , 6x6 & 8x8 mix plus CST's in support of 7th Light Mechanised or am I missing something here
Yes, you're missing the bit where that regiment isn't split into light/medium/heavy capabilities.

I don't know what's hard to understand. Operating a fleet of 12t vehicles in the Light Mechanised role is one thing. Then adding a 33t artillery system (upto 48t if the MAN RDUK option), requires additional large recovery vehicles, bridging vehicles and further fuel supplies. That's after you've considered the logistics of getting those units in-country quickly via air transport fleet.
Tempest414 wrote: 21 Sep 2022, 09:12 It was also interesting that the 2 Para battle group had the same mix of vehicles in Logistic support for Ex Swift Response 3 months ago
It's not unusual for logistics units to use whatever is available as opposed to whatever is suitable when supporting the teeth arms on exercise.
Tempest414 wrote: 21 Sep 2022, 10:40 The light mechanised will always need the 6x6 USTs & bigger MTVR CSTs to keep moving as said at this time the 102 Logistics brigade operate 4x4 , 6x6 & 8x8 MAN trucks and MTVR CSTs in support of the 1st UK Light Division
Why? The light vehicles are more than capable of using pallet systems to refuel and replenish. There's no need to run MTVR CST fleet in support. Again, you run larger logistics vehicles and the whole system rockets in size to meet the recovery and logistics demand.

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Re: M777 Portee DVD 2016

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So it would seem that there may indeed be a place for a portee or even a light wheeled SP 105mm, unless we were to go for something more radical, like a move to a 120mm light gun - not sure whether that would bring sufficient benefit, considering the potential cost, however.
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Re: M777 Portee DVD 2016

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Are you saying that the 6 regt RLC which have 4x4 , 6x6 & 8x8 MAN truck and are trained to use them to best affect in support of 7 LM BCT are going to hand in all there 6x6 and 8x8 trucks and run around looking for more 4x4's the fuck they are its not going to happen they have a mix of trucks for a reason

now I do agree that adding a 33 ton artillery system would be a big big push

Just as a side what is the weight limit of the smallest bridge the Light mechanised units could take and use as I am guessing that any bridge would have to be carried and the vehicle that carried it would need to go over it

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Re: M777 Portee DVD 2016

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Caribbean wrote: 21 Sep 2022, 11:30 So it would seem that there may indeed be a place for a portee or even a light wheeled SP 105mm, unless we were to go for something more radical, like a move to a 120mm light gun - not sure whether that would bring sufficient benefit, considering the potential cost, however.
Could we fit a M777 on the back of a MAN 4x4 and have a second 4x4 as a ammo limber

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Re: M777 Portee DVD 2016

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Tempest414 wrote: 21 Sep 2022, 11:53 Are you saying that the 6 regt RLC which have 4x4 , 6x6 & 8x8 MAN truck and are trained to use them to best affect in support of 7 LM BCT are going to hand in all there 6x6 and 8x8 trucks and run around looking for more 4x4's the fuck they are its not going to happen they have a mix of trucks for a reason
I there's one thing the British Army is not short of it's MAN 4x4 vehicles with flat-bed, hook and crane variations.

Medium Girder Bridge (as bought for Strike) is again, just a pallet load. A few vehicles would carry and at least one would be equipped with HIAB for faster deployment.

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Re: M777 Portee DVD 2016

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Tempest414 wrote: 21 Sep 2022, 12:06
Caribbean wrote: 21 Sep 2022, 11:30 So it would seem that there may indeed be a place for a portee or even a light wheeled SP 105mm, unless we were to go for something more radical, like a move to a 120mm light gun - not sure whether that would bring sufficient benefit, considering the potential cost, however.
Could we fit a M777 on the back of a MAN 4x4 and have a second 4x4 as a ammo limber
Yep. Very similar to what the US army does with theirs.

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Re: M777 Portee DVD 2016

Post by leonard »

Some real world combat experiences lessons from the use of the M777 howitzer in the hands of the Ukranian artillery and the results are very surprising



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