General UK Defence Discussion

For everything else UK defence-related that doesn't fit into any of the sections above.
topman
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by topman »

downsizer wrote: 28 Nov 2021, 20:30
topman wrote: 28 Nov 2021, 19:07 For those serving, have you seen or heard of any action against those not vaccinated?

Heard a few places that are looking to post people away from certain posts.
Yes.
What sort of sanctions?

downsizer
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by downsizer »

No sanctions, but they have been made to acknowledge that refusal of vaccine "may" have "career implications".

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by bobp »

Came across this article and comments about MOD procurement, the chair of the defence committee is not impressed..

https://www.conservativehome.com/platfo ... roken.html

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RichardIC
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by RichardIC »

bobp wrote: 30 Nov 2021, 12:54 Came across this article and comments about MOD procurement, the chair of the defence committee is not impressed..

https://www.conservativehome.com/platfo ... roken.html
Just for the sake of clarity:

1. Mark Francois is not and never has been Chair of the Defence Select Committee. He is an amorphous blob who somehow managed to become an MP.
2. Even more remarkably he is a former Minister in the MoD. And many of the things he now howls from the rooftops about are firmly rooted in.... when he was a Minister in the MoD.

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by bobp »

Sorry i got confused.

Lord Jim
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Lord Jim »

I do wish people would make the distinction between the Senior Civil Servants and the large numbers of hard working Civil Servants. Blame is due at managerial level not with the "Poor Bloody Infantry"!

topman
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by topman »

downsizer wrote: 29 Nov 2021, 08:00 No sanctions, but they have been made to acknowledge that refusal of vaccine "may" have "career implications".
I wonder what career implications could be? I assume they've had advice from the career managers and legal.

Chatting the other day, it seems pretty big variations on the amount of support people are getting to have the jab, some are allowed MT, some are told its their business and to do it in their own time.

Anyone serving seen similar?

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by downsizer »

No MT but people are going in work time.

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by R686 »

It seems Macron is starting to turn the table onto the UK about the submarine deal
Macron said that on defence, Britain had pushed for the Aukus security pact between Britain, Australia and the US that prompted Australia to cancel a contract with France to buy submarines.

The cancellation of the submarines deal caused uproar in France, with accusations that its allies had stabbed it in the back. Macron for the first time publicly accused Britain of being “a fervent promoter” of the rival deal. “Can I ignore that the British were, it seems, the fervent promoters of a contract which deliberately fought against France’s interest in the Indo-Pacific to build an exclusive alternative vision?” he said.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.the ... -crossings

Lord Jim
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Lord Jim »

I think the UK is going to have to start realising that having its cake and eating it is putting it in a difficult position regarding Defence procurement as there becomes a world where you are either in the US sphere of influence on defence equipment or the European. I think we are going to find that if we want to maintain or even increase our defence manufacturing beyond aerospace, European partners may give us a better deal in the long run that those from the US. This is just my opinion and would like to hear what others have to say.

Lord Jim
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Lord Jim »

I think the UK is going to have to start realising that having its cake and eating it is putting it in a difficult position regarding Defence procurement as there becomes a world where you are either in the US sphere of influence on defence equipment or the European. I think we are going to find that if we want to maintain or even increase our defence manufacturing beyond aerospace, European partners may give us a better deal in the long run that those from the US. This is just my opinion and would like to hear what others have to say.

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Lord Jim »

Sorry for the double post.

Defiance
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Defiance »

R686 wrote: 10 Dec 2021, 04:34 It seems Macron is starting to turn the table onto the UK about the submarine deal
Macron said that on defence, Britain had pushed for the Aukus security pact between Britain, Australia and the US that prompted Australia to cancel a contract with France to buy submarines.

The cancellation of the submarines deal caused uproar in France, with accusations that its allies had stabbed it in the back. Macron for the first time publicly accused Britain of being “a fervent promoter” of the rival deal. “Can I ignore that the British were, it seems, the fervent promoters of a contract which deliberately fought against France’s interest in the Indo-Pacific to build an exclusive alternative vision?” he said.
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.the ... -crossings
I thought originally they said the UK was the third wheel and not that relevent, now we're the malevolent masterminds :think:

French guff for internal consumption. Looks like the selection of Valerie Pecresse for Les Republicans has ruffled his feathers

Repulse
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Repulse »

Defiance wrote: 10 Dec 2021, 08:41 I thought originally they said the UK was the third wheel and not that relevent, now we're the malevolent masterminds

French guff for internal consumption. Looks like the selection of Valerie Pecresse for Les Republicans has ruffled his feathers
Absolutely, and stirred up by a pro European segment of the press / political class who are still trying to refight the EU referendum or just want to sell papers by putting the UK down.
  • Should the UK be concerned about the language coming out of France - yes.
  • Should it be concerned that the French will now be more publicly trying to undermine the UK especially in EU countries and the US (rather than behind the scenes which they've been doing for years) - yes.
  • Does it deserve any knee jerk reactions or should we capitulate - no.
  • Should the UK be developing partnerships and strategies to combat this and become less reliant on the levers that France can pull - yes.
Ultimately, this will be seen as the childish behaviour it is, but given the global trend to be "anti-UK" at the moment, it's best to keep our powder dry. Having said that I would start to pull out of certain exercises with France on Defence to make the point that we will not be taken for granted.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by R686 »

Repulse wrote: 10 Dec 2021, 09:33
Defiance wrote: 10 Dec 2021, 08:41 I thought originally they said the UK was the third wheel and not that relevent, now we're the malevolent masterminds

French guff for internal consumption. Looks like the selection of Valerie Pecresse for Les Republicans has ruffled his feathers
Absolutely, and stirred up by a pro European segment of the press / political class who are still trying to refight the EU referendum or just want to sell papers by putting the UK down.
  • Should the UK be concerned about the language coming out of France - yes.
  • Should it be concerned that the French will now be more publicly trying to undermine the UK especially in EU countries and the US (rather than behind the scenes which they've been doing for years) - yes.
  • Does it deserve any knee jerk reactions or should we capitulate - no.
  • Should the UK be developing partnerships and strategies to combat this and become less reliant on the levers that France can pull - yes.
Ultimately, this will be seen as the childish behaviour it is, but given the global trend to be "anti-UK" at the moment, it's best to keep our powder dry. Having said that I would start to pull out of certain exercises with France on Defence to make the point that we will not be taken for granted.



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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Defiance wrote: 10 Dec 2021, 08:41
R686 wrote: 10 Dec 2021, 04:34 It seems Macron is starting to turn the table onto the UK about the submarine deal
Macron said that on defence, Britain had pushed for the Aukus security pact between Britain, Australia and the US that prompted Australia to cancel a contract with France to buy submarines.

The cancellation of the submarines deal caused uproar in France, with accusations that its allies had stabbed it in the back. Macron for the first time publicly accused Britain of being “a fervent promoter” of the rival deal. “Can I ignore that the British were, it seems, the fervent promoters of a contract which deliberately fought against France’s interest in the Indo-Pacific to build an exclusive alternative vision?” he said.
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.the ... -crossings
I thought originally they said the UK was the third wheel and not that relevent, now we're the malevolent masterminds :think:

French guff for internal consumption. Looks like the selection of Valerie Pecresse for Les Republicans has ruffled his feathers
If I did n't know better, then I would assume Macron is indulging in some pre-French election pro-Nationialistic rhetoric and anti-Brit bashing!!
:) :)

topman
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by topman »

Anyone seen what the rental element of the future housing model? I've seen for homeowners it's £125, but for the rental info seems harder to come by. Just says things like band c or similar, anyone know why any figures for the pilot sites?

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by TheLoneRanger »

Lord Jim wrote: 10 Dec 2021, 06:21 I think the UK is going to have to start realising that having its cake and eating it is putting it in a difficult position regarding Defence procurement as there becomes a world where you are either in the US sphere of influence on defence equipment or the European. I think we are going to find that if we want to maintain or even increase our defence manufacturing beyond aerospace, European partners may give us a better deal in the long run that those from the US. This is just my opinion and would like to hear what others have to say.
I disagree.

How many British origin weapons systems have the French purchased from the UK versus how many the UK has purchased from the French?

The Americans have fewer issues buying from the UK than the French do... so why should we continue to "feed" the French weapons industry which then places the UK at even greater disadvantage?

I wont talk about the countries in the EU ...

The UK defence industry has been at a disadvantage as part of the EU partially because of procurement laws but also the UK goverment has always placed "market efficient" and cost of procurement over developing intellectual property that it can own and sell..... look at how Rafales the French have sold recently.. The UK goverment now needs things we can all make and sell -

The future of the UK industry has to be to develop military programmes and intellectual property that it can own and sell and with a focus on making the manufacturing and supply chain within the UK and additionally, where possible for them to be ITAR free so that it has the greated degree of flexibility of where and who it wants to sell to and be free of competitive pressure that will translate into ITAR issues..

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by SW1 »

TheLoneRanger wrote: 11 Dec 2021, 11:20
Lord Jim wrote: 10 Dec 2021, 06:21 I think the UK is going to have to start realising that having its cake and eating it is putting it in a difficult position regarding Defence procurement as there becomes a world where you are either in the US sphere of influence on defence equipment or the European. I think we are going to find that if we want to maintain or even increase our defence manufacturing beyond aerospace, European partners may give us a better deal in the long run that those from the US. This is just my opinion and would like to hear what others have to say.
I disagree.

How many British origin weapons systems have the French purchased from the UK versus how many the UK has purchased from the French?

The Americans have fewer issues buying from the UK than the French do... so why should we continue to "feed" the French weapons industry which then places the UK at even greater disadvantage?

I wont talk about the countries in the EU ...

The UK defence industry has been at a disadvantage as part of the EU partially because of procurement laws but also the UK goverment has always placed "market efficient" and cost of procurement over developing intellectual property that it can own and sell..... look at how Rafales the French have sold recently.. The UK goverment now needs things we can all make and sell -

The future of the UK industry has to be to develop military programmes and intellectual property that it can own and sell and with a focus on making the manufacturing and supply chain within the UK and additionally, where possible for them to be ITAR free so that it has the greated degree of flexibility of where and who it wants to sell to and be free of competitive pressure that will translate into ITAR issues..
I mean is this for real?

downsizer
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by downsizer »

topman wrote: 11 Dec 2021, 10:58 Anyone seen what the rental element of the future housing model? I've seen for homeowners it's £125, but for the rental info seems harder to come by. Just says things like band c or similar, anyone know why any figures for the pilot sites?
Go to Witterings sharepoint site, load of stuff about it there.

topman
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by topman »

downsizer wrote: 11 Dec 2021, 11:47
topman wrote: 11 Dec 2021, 10:58 Anyone seen what the rental element of the future housing model? I've seen for homeowners it's £125, but for the rental info seems harder to come by. Just says things like band c or similar, anyone know why any figures for the pilot sites?
Go to Witterings sharepoint site, load of stuff about it there.

Cheers, I'll have a look.

Lord Jim
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Lord Jim »

TheLoneRanger wrote: 11 Dec 2021, 11:20
Lord Jim wrote: 10 Dec 2021, 06:21 I think the UK is going to have to start realising that having its cake and eating it is putting it in a difficult position regarding Defence procurement as there becomes a world where you are either in the US sphere of influence on defence equipment or the European. I think we are going to find that if we want to maintain or even increase our defence manufacturing beyond aerospace, European partners may give us a better deal in the long run that those from the US. This is just my opinion and would like to hear what others have to say.
I disagree.

How many British origin weapons systems have the French purchased from the UK versus how many the UK has purchased from the French?

The Americans have fewer issues buying from the UK than the French do... so why should we continue to "feed" the French weapons industry which then places the UK at even greater disadvantage?

I wont talk about the countries in the EU ...

The UK defence industry has been at a disadvantage as part of the EU partially because of procurement laws but also the UK goverment has always placed "market efficient" and cost of procurement over developing intellectual property that it can own and sell..... look at how Rafales the French have sold recently.. The UK goverment now needs things we can all make and sell -

The future of the UK industry has to be to develop military programmes and intellectual property that it can own and sell and with a focus on making the manufacturing and supply chain within the UK and additionally, where possible for them to be ITAR free so that it has the greated degree of flexibility of where and who it wants to sell to and be free of competitive pressure that will translate into ITAR issues..
The problem with the above is that though the principal is fine where is the money coming from. Yes we have had some success with selling naval designs and a few ships recently, but when was the las major export order for any UK produced land platforms or wholly designed and owned aircraft? If you want products to be ITAR free then we need to work with European partners. In my opinion with regards to manufacturing we need to decide which block we want to work within, the USA or Europe, and base this on what is most beneficial to the UK as a whole moving forward. Yes we can still purchase products from the other but with finite resources we cannot really have a foot in both camps. On Land Systems we are already in the European block and the same can be said for aerospace. Moving forward, finding common ground with European partners in the naval arena would be beneficial, though this would really involve sub systems such as weapons, sensors and propulsion I believe. Rheinmetall is a good example, they are likely to be a if not the major player in UK Land Systems moving forward, I do not think the same can be said of GD or LM.

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by SW1 »

US shale LNG tankers flooding into Europe

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -to-region

European natural gas prices headed for a third day of sharp declines as more tankers are crossing the Atlantic with U.S. fuel to the energy-starved region.

At least 15 vessels with liquefied natural gas declared Western European ports as their destinations as of Thursday, up from 10 on Wednesday, shipping data compiled by Bloomberg show. Plus, there are another 11 U.S. LNG cargoes with undeclared destinations whose paths suggest they are headed for Europe.

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Gtal »

Repulse wrote: 10 Dec 2021, 09:33
Defiance wrote: 10 Dec 2021, 08:41 [...]global trend to be "anti-UK"[...]
Boggles the mind.
The whole world has conspired to pick on the poor UK right?


You know.. At some point you need to consider the possibility that the UK is the problem.

I mean, come on! Now it's "fog in the channel AND in the atlantic"? Really???

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Repulse »

Gtal wrote: 25 Dec 2021, 07:44
Repulse wrote: 10 Dec 2021, 09:33
Defiance wrote: 10 Dec 2021, 08:41 [...]global trend to be "anti-UK"[...]
Boggles the mind.
The whole world has conspired to pick on the poor UK right?

You know.. At some point you need to consider the possibility that the UK is the problem.

I mean, come on! Now it's "fog in the channel AND in the atlantic"? Really???
The UK should always be looking at itself and challenging if it’s doing the right thing - however, it is not the problem, maybe part of the problem, but not the problem.

I completely reject the supposed moral superiority of the EU and the US, especially given recent behaviour driven by self interest over combating Russia and China (and in Afghanistan). Whilst some want to paint Brexit as an inward looking act, the UK continues to stand for global democratic values, ready to support within our means - perhaps some are upset that we are starting to act more in self interest, but that’s because we are acting more like them.

When I talk about “anti UK” it comes domestically and internationally, mostly from people who want to be blame the country for every historical ill. It has become trendy driven by lack of historical context and unbalanced/ideological commentary. The UK should honestly reflect on the good and bad of its past, but so should every country.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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