General UK Defence Discussion

For everything else UK defence-related that doesn't fit into any of the sections above.
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Tempest414
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Tempest414 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Tempest414 wrote:turn it into pounds today 500.000 US is about 370.000 pounds so 500 Bushmasters could cost 185 million.
Thx, the real question would be the comparison to say Eagle 2 or any other current runner up for the Batch 2 order... if we ever get past the Batch 1 (by now costing more per vehicle??)
Cost of Eagle was 972.000 dollars to the Danish Army or 697.000 pound so 500 Eagle would cost 349 Million nearly 2 x Bushmaster

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

One or the other (btw, was that for Eagle 2, as the Danes bought them as patrol vehicles and we have other intended uses?) this batch 2 purchase could well complete before the main batch, as per DefenceNews published interview in Aug 2020:
"

A second MRV-P package, unrelated to JLTV, involving purchase of larger vehicles for ambulance and general purpose duties is still in competition.

The demonstration deal has not been officially announced but radios, electronic countermeasures and other equipment are among the items specified by the British for trialing on a modified JLTV.

Mike Ivy, the senior vice president for international programs at Oshkosh Defense, confirmed the work is underway."
but in the same interview expected contract in Dec 2022!
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Tempest414
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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

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ArmChairCivvy wrote:btw, was that for Eagle 2, as the Danes bought them as patrol vehicles and we have other intended uses?)
It was for Eagle V 4x4 so I can only see the 6x6 costing more

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Lord Jim »

Going on a total different direction, I watched this video of the Queen inspecting BOAR as part of her Silver Jubilee in 1977, said to be the biggest parade held by the British Army in modern times, almost the entire 4th Armoured Division. I realise these things are expensive, as was the Royal Tournament, but the PR and recruitment benefits of the public seeing the Armed Forces in this way was huge. I cannot remember what the Army did for the Queen's Golden Jubilee in 2022 I think, but it is a real shame there wasn't an equivalent parade held then in Germany when BOAR was probably at its strongest.

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by SKB »

1977 Silver Jubilee Spithead Fleet Review

(British Movietone) 21 July 2015
From the deck of the Royal Yacht 'Britannia', Her Majesty the Queen and members of her family review the ships of the British Navy which had assembled off Spithead. From the Movietone Film Archives we look back at other Fleet Reviews - The Silver Jubilee Review of George V, the 11 year old Princess Elizabeth at the 1937 Coronation Review and the Coronation Review of 1953, when from the deck of HMS 'Surprise', the newly-crowned Queen Elizabeth II reviewed Her Fleet. ® As the Royal Yacht sailed along the lines of ships, the Company of each gave Her Majesty 'three cheers'. At the end of the Review came the fly-past of the Helicopters of the Fleet Air Arm. In the evening, the Queen dined aboard HMS 'Ark Royal', the Flag Ship of the Review.

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Lord Jim »

Oh well we might as well make it a hat trick then, here is the file on the Queen inspecting the RAF during her Silver Jubilee at RAF Finningley. Again an impressive display by the Armed Forces.

I will always remember watching the Vulcan bombers conducting a scramble, the noise was impressive to say the least.

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

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Yes the good old days I remember a full Lightning Sqn scramble. on the idea of the Queen making it to 2023 ( 70 years ) a Royal Tournament would be great also a fleet review with ships from the Commonwealth including Carriers from the UK , India and Australia would also be something to see

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by SW1 »

The case for the light mechanised brigade

https://wavellroom.com/2021/02/24/the-f ... res-light/

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

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This has been my thinking for some time and as I have said before the 1st Division should be made up of 4 light Mechanised brigades of

1 x Cavalry regt = Jackal
3 x Motorised Infantry Bn = Foxhound & Bushmaster
1 x Artillery support group = 2 x Archer Batteries , 1 x UAV Battery and 1 x air defence Battery = MAN 8x8
1 x Logistics support group = RL , RE , REME , RAMC

with what we have now i.e 400 Jackal & Coyote , 400 Foxhound , 300 Husky & 6000 + MAN trucks we should be able to stand up 2 if not 3 Brigades

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by SW1 »

Tempest414 wrote:This has been my thinking for some time and as I have said before the 1st Division should be made up of 4 light Mechanised brigades of

1 x Cavalry regt = Jackal
3 x Motorised Infantry Bn = Foxhound & Bushmaster
1 x Artillery support group = 2 x Archer Batteries , 1 x UAV Battery and 1 x air defence Battery = MAN 8x8
1 x Logistics support group = RL , RE , REME , RAMC

with what we have now i.e 400 Jackal & Coyote , 400 Foxhound , 300 Husky & 6000 + MAN trucks we should be able to stand up 2 if not 3 Brigades
I would largely agree thought I wouldn’t add bushmaster simply a variant of foxhound or jackal. This should be what the army aspires to for its global presence capability and something I think is very achievable.

If they are taking on the “strike” concept of operation then there’s no reason why this force can’t operate similarly against a different threat level but none the less similar concept. Adding the likes of the Kongberg RWS to jackal and foxhound would add good sensors.

The supporting arms could be pooled with the heavy forces and then assigned to either the heavier brigades or this one. I think the needs will be similar but perhaps just lower numbers for these brigades

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

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to get to a brigade like this
Tempest414 wrote: 1 x Cavalry regt = Jackal
3 x Motorised Infantry Bn = Foxhound & Bushmaster
1 x Artillery support group = 2 x Archer Batteries , 1 x UAV Battery and 1 x air defence Battery = MAN 8x8
1 x Logistics support group = RL , RE , REME , RAMC
we will need

70+ Jackal = 1 x Cavalry regt
240+ Foxhound , Bushmaster , JLTV = 3 x Motorised Infantry Bn
30 MAN 8x8 = Artillery
130 + = Logistics

if we were to times this by four to have 4 brigades in the 1st Division to make it the (1st UK light Mechanised Division) we have enough vehicles for the Cavalry , Artillery and Logistics but we are some 500 to 600 vehicles short at this time for the Motorised infantry and a buy of 500 Bushmaster @ say 200 million pounds would sort this out. To me that sounds pretty cheap to sort out and have a Light Mechanised Division

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Lord Jim »

Sorting out 3rd and 6th (UK) Divisions has to come first.

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

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Lord Jim wrote:Sorting out 3rd and 6th (UK) Divisions has to come first.
I would disagree the heavy brigades are much harder to sort out because they are much more complex and have much more obsolescence. The benefit of doing this quickly is we have vehicles in service there relatively simple and we can add more relatively easily and if we stick to foxhound and hmt you have a uk design and manufacturing story that can feed into the main government jobs narrative while providing a force able to deal with the majority of the day to day tasks of the army and is much more suited to the global engagement strategy of government.

This buys you time to get the heavy brigades equipped and trained on modern equipment which is much more complex.

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

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I would agree the ability to change the 1st into a Light Mechanised Division quickly and cheaply should be taken. This would allow the 1st to take on 80% of the global deployments freeing up the 3rd and 6th to settle down and re-role this would allow this so called once in generation change be pushed.

The 3rd is getting a lot of new kit i.e 590 Ajax and 530 Boxer = 1120 vehicles this along with the upgrade to Challenger and Warrior if goes ahead would allow for 1 x Armoured Brigade and 2 x Heavy Mechanised brigades.

The 6th as far as vehicles goes should get JLTV in GP , Utility , SF , 120mm mortar it should also see the Army air Corps replace its Gazelles , Bell 212 =40 aircraft and the RAF Pumas =24 with 64 AW-139/ 149 allowing 50 to work with 16 AA and SF all based at RAF Benson

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by Lord Jim »

Whilst I agree that some of the Infantry in 1st (UK) Division need additional equipment especially protected transport, I do not think we need more than two Brigades stood up as such.

3rd and 6th Division must be given the priority though and as a result have the vast majority of resources allocated to the various programmes underway or that need to be undertaken. The current plans and investment will not make either Division viable formations in a Peer conflict which is the objective of the transformation repeatedly mentioned in Media briefs. The Army knows this but has had to try to make the best of a bad situation resource wise.

Re-equipping units from 1st division maybe a quick win but this would not provide the resilient forces we need and would divert resources from higher priority needs. As it is I cannot see 3rd Division actually getting four combat Brigades but rather three, one Armoured Infantry and two Mechanised though the former maybe larger and stronger than currently planned. It is the Mechanised Infantry Battalions that are going to be a true deployable formations, able to over match most non Peer opponents when operating together with fixed and rotary air support and SF

Don't get me wrong, Motorised units created within 1st Division will have a role in the Army's future doctrine, but it will be a while until anything like the force structure proposed will be realised. As mentioned we already have the Jackals and Coyotes with the later being a very good limber for either the Light Gun or ideally a 120mm mortar (has to be said), but I cannot see the formations getting 155mm Archers or such like. The number of ATGW would like also be restricted, instead relying on systems such as the M4 Carl Gustav and also disposable weapons such as NLWA and the L2A2 (Matador). They may or may not get integral air defence assets, namely Starstreak in its pedestal form, but I see the issue of such equipment being on a mission by mission basis. In this I see them still conducting "Mentoring" operations at a Company level as their main role, supporting our allies, and maybe deploying Battalion level forces to deter any aggression against our allies, but their combat potential will be limited to a clearly defined set of circumstances which if exceeding will require additional heavier forces to come to their rescue.

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

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How hard would it be to fit a 105mm gun onto a MAN 6x6 Armoured cab able to carry 35 or 40 rounds. For me I cant see it being that hard a new base plate for the gun with a hydraulic system allowing 30 degree off centre traverse and ammo boxes mounted on a MAN 6x6 I recon myself and 5 others could have a system ready to trial 3 month after having a MAN 6x6 and 105 delivered for under 200.000 pounds

Anyway I think with what we have and a very small lay out of say 500 million pounds we could have a 1st division made up

3 Brigades like so

1 x Cavalry = Jackal
3 x Motorised infantry Bn = Foxhound , Bushmaster
1 x Artillery support group = 1 x Battery of 8 x MAN 6x6 105 guns , 1 x Battery of UAV ,1 x Air defence
1 x Logistics support group = RL , RE , REME , RAMC

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

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At this time we have the 1st , 3rd and 6th Divisions plus 16 AA maybe we should move some Battalions around to have something like

1st Division = 3 x Light mechanised Brigades
3rd Division = 1 x Armoured brigade + 2 x Heavy Mechanised Brigades
5th Division = 1 x para Brigade and 2 x Air mobile Brigade
6th Division = ISTAR

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

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So I have been thinking maybe the Army needs to rethink and reshuffle to end up with

1st Division

3 x full time and 1 x reserve Cavalry regts = 4 regiments
9 x full time and 6 x reserve Motorised infantry = 15 Battalion
3 x Artillery support groups
3 x Logistics support groups

Formed into 3 x Light Mechanised Infantry Brigades

3rd Division

2 x full time & 1 x Reserve tank regiments
4 x full time & 2 x reserve Cavalry = 6 regiments
9 x full time & 6 x reserve Armoured / Mechanised infantry = 15 Battalions
3 x Artillery support groups
3 x Logistics groups

Formed into 1 x Armoured brigade and 2 x Heavy Mechanised brigades

5th Division

1 x Pathfinder Company = 2 full time & 1 reserve platoons
2 x full time & 1 reserve Para = 3 Battalions
4 x full time & 2 x Reserve Air Mobile Infantry = 6 Battalions
2 x Artillery support groups
2 x Logistics groups

Formed into 2 x Brigades

6th Division

ISTAR support to the 3 field divisions

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by SW1 »

If you assume that your 1 div is the force that conducts your fwd presence and engagement then I would suggest 4 brigades with an assigned geographical interest for each poss Europe, Asia, Africa and south/Central America.

3 div the hardest one to figure out can’t see more than perhaps 6 infantry battalions assigned to it and wouldn’t think it’s the place for the reserves it should be all regular.

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

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SW1 wrote:If you assume that your 1 div is the force that conducts your fwd presence and engagement then I would suggest 4 brigades with an assigned geographical interest for each poss Europe, Asia, Africa and south/Central America.

3 div the hardest one to figure out can’t see more than perhaps 6 infantry battalions assigned to it and wouldn’t think it’s the place for the reserves it should be all regular.
I would say with the 2nd Battalion Gurkha's in Brunei Asia is covered as far as a forward deployed unit. So for me it could be Europe , Africa , Middle East

As For the 3rd Div right now they have 12 Battalions 6 of each full time and reserve with each each reserve battalion joined to a full time one

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

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Tempest414 wrote:
SW1 wrote:If you assume that your 1 div is the force that conducts your fwd presence and engagement then I would suggest 4 brigades with an assigned geographical interest for each poss Europe, Asia, Africa and south/Central America.

3 div the hardest one to figure out can’t see more than perhaps 6 infantry battalions assigned to it and wouldn’t think it’s the place for the reserves it should be all regular.
I would say with the 2nd Battalion Gurkha's in Brunei Asia is covered as far as a forward deployed unit. So for me it could be Europe , Africa , Middle East

As For the 3rd Div right now they have 12 Battalions 6 of each full time and reserve with each each reserve battalion joined to a full time one
I would role the two Gurkha infantry battalions with 1 other (possibly the black watch) into one of the brigades to cover Asia as I would also include Afghanistan in this region and while it maybe nearing the end the presence in Asia it would appear will not and so having a more capable/mobile unit with the ability to rotate in that region will help.

I simply wouldn’t have any reserve units assigned to the 3rd division if this is to be your high end war formation

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

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Tempest414 wrote:As For the 3rd Div right now they have 12 Battalions 6 of each full time and reserve with each each reserve battalion joined to a full time one
But surely these are not part of the order of battle but to provide replacements and ensure the Regular Battalions are at full strength.

Going forward I cannot see the Army having more than twenty Regular Battalions of Infantry and maybe ten Reserve Battalions, with most reserves being allocated to specialist formations where recruitment in the regulars is more difficult. The vast majority of resources are going to go to 3rd and 6th Divisions and I can see, in my opinion, 1st Division having no more than two brigades with only two, or three at most regular battalions each. The remaining formations will be like now made up of specialist units, REME, Field Hospitals, Logistics and so on, and be mainly made up of reserves.

3rd Division will have a maximum of nine Infantry Battalions dependant on how it ends up being organised and 6th could have as few as three. Like the Royal Navy where the Carrier Group is basically the striking power of the Navy, 3rd Division will be the same for the Army. 1st Division will be more like the five T-31s, with individual battalions based in locations to show we have an interest in an area, but with little actually fighting power.

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

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SW1 wrote:I simply wouldn’t have any reserve units assigned to the 3rd division if this is to be your high end war formation
Lord Jim wrote:But surely these are not part of the order of battle but to provide replacements and ensure the Regular Battalions are at full strength.
I see a need for 24 regular infantry Battalions and between 10 and 12 reserve infantry Battalion. For me I do think the 3rd should have Reserve Battalions but maybe only one in each Brigade allowing each Brigade to train its reserves along side regulars would help back fill holes when in combat

I would not have any infantry units in the Sixth but as said I would move the 11th brigade out of the 1st into the newly formed 5th Air Assault Division allowing for

3rd = 3 x 3 + 1 infantry battalions = 9 Regular and 3 Reserves

1st = 3 x 3 + 2 infantry Battalions = 9 Regular and 6 Reserves

5th = 3 x 2 +1 infantry Battalions = 6 Regular and 3 Reserves

totalling 24 regular and 12 reserve infantry Battalions

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by topman »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-56538334

Ex general gets sent to prison at a court martial for fraud.

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Re: General UK Defence Discussion

Post by SW1 »

The final frontier.....


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