MBDA (UK)

Contains threads on equipment developed by the UK defence and aerospace industry, but not in service with the British Armed Forces.
SW1
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Re: MBDA (UK)

Post by SW1 »

https://www.mbda-systems.com/press-rele ... ng-system/

MBDA has been awarded a first contract for Albatros NG, a brand new CAMM-ER based air defence system. This first order, from an undisclosed international customer, marks a further validation of the wide appeal of the CAMM air defence family on the global marketplace and paves the way to further acquisitions by the same customer and other Navies.

Albatros NG is a new generation Naval Based Air Defence (NBAD) system, based on the CAMM-ER, which is the extended range variant of the Common Anti-air Modular Missile (CAMM) family already delivered to customers around the world for both ground based and naval air defence.

The CAMM-ER missile is capable of providing self and local area defence against the evolving airborne threat at ranges exceeding 40km; it will be integrated in the new ground based air defence systems for the Italian Army and Italian Air Force. CAMM family systems have already been delivered to the British Army, to the Royal Navy and to several export nations.

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Re: MBDA (UK)

Post by Timmymagic »

First export order for CAMM-ER...un-named country...don't think its Qatar or Egypt as they've just gone for MICA-VL from MBDA. Surely has to be somewhere in Gulf or far-east. Edit: Now confirmed as Pakistan, updated below June 21

Either way its good news, CAMM-ER will enter service with this customer at sea in 2024. For me CAMM-ER is rapidly becoming a no-brainer for the RN on Type 26 and 31 in addition to CAMM. It's getting a lot of traction in the export market for so new a system...if they added the slighly larger calibre E/O and DMB seeker topped versions to the VL line up (and perhaps a rocket boosted VL Spear) it would be an irresistible system set up in my mind.

CAMM/CAMM-ER customers to date: CAMM in Blue, CAMM-ER in Red, Both in Green)
Royal Navy
British Army (Cmdr 7 AD recently confirmed CAMM-ER will happen)
Royal New Zealand Navy
Chilean Navy
Brazilian Navy
Brazilian Marines

Italian Navy
Italian Air Force
Italian Army

Royal Canadian Navy
Pakistan Navy

Potential sale for Sweden on the Visby Class now they're thinking of actually adding surface to air missiles (the original Umkhonto missiles from South Africa are now seen as a non-starter due to lack of development and issues elsewhere.., hard to think of a more perfect fit than CAMM).

ASRAAM Users (Asraam in Blue, Asraam and Asraam CSP in Red)
Royal Air Force
Royal Australian Air Force
Indian Air Force


Could we see the Italian AF use Asraam CSP on their F-35? They don't have a compatible short range missile for it at present...(Italy does make some components for AIM-9X however..).



Press release text:

Albatros NG is a new CAMM-ER based air defence system for naval applications

MBDA has been awarded a first contract for Albatros NG, a brand new CAMM-ER based air defence system. This first order, from an undisclosed international customer (now known to be Pakistan), marks a further validation of the wide appeal of the CAMM air defence family on the global marketplace and paves the way to further acquisitions by the same customer and other Navies.

Albatros NG is a new generation Naval Based Air Defence (NBAD) system, based on the CAMM-ER, which is the extended range variant of the Common Anti-air Modular Missile (CAMM) family already delivered to customers around the world for both ground based and naval air defence.

Under the terms of this recent order, Albatros NG will be in service in 2024.

Albatros NG, deriving its name from the legacy Albatros systems which have been in service with the Italian Navy and several export customers for years, is suitable for different kinds of vessels providing air defence capability for platforms ranging from patrol vessels and corvettes to destroyers. It also allows a complementary layer for larger vessels such as frigates and destroyers already equipped with a long range air defence system. It can be easily integrated, without significant changes, in the ships’ design; its Command & Control (C2) is designed to enable flexible integration with both new and existing naval Combat Management Systems (CMS).

The CAMM-ER missile is capable of providing self and local area defence against the evolving airborne threat at ranges exceeding 40km; it will be integrated in the new ground based air defence systems for the Italian Army and Italian Air Force. CAMM family systems have already been delivered to the British Army, to the Royal Navy and to several export nations.

Air defence systems utilising the CAMM and CAMM-ER missiles can provide armed forces with advanced protection against the ever-evolving air threat, including manned and unmanned aircraft, precision guided munitions, terrain-following/sea-skimming missiles, and low radar cross section (RCS) targets; all in the presence of the latest countermeasures.

Jdam
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Re: MBDA (UK)

Post by Jdam »

Image

Ill post this picture in this thread just so we can all get an idea of the difference between the 2.

CAMM does seem to have carve a nice little market out for itself. I assume this sale is another land based system.

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Re: MBDA (UK)

Post by Timmymagic »

Jdam wrote: I assume this sale is another land based system.
This ones naval, with the potential of a land based sale to the same user/country.

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Re: MBDA (UK)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

BlueD954 wrote:
Defiance wrote:
ArmChairCivvy wrote: Does it say what is SPEAR1 capability as 2 +3 are parallel, for different uses but sharing some technology, and 4+% are different missiles, sequentially time wise, but meant for the same uses?
Paveway IV variants - one has a seeker for moving targets and the other has a penetrator warhead (as penetrating as a 500lb bomb can be). They are treated as different weapons for F-35 integration. The last drop chart I saw had SPEAR 1 seeker and SPEAR 1 penetrator as seperate entities to be rolled out during different F-35 Blk 4.X software releases
That is correct.
A useful discussion/
Who :angel: is going to put out a tabulated response
... so that posteriority can follow up with what we said :lol:

Remember, the capability was tabulated as 1,2,3 through to 5
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: MBDA (UK)

Post by Ron5 »

An excellent overview of the joint UK/Italian CAMM-ER program:

https://www.difesa.it/Amministrazionetr ... 17_020.pdf

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Re: MBDA (UK)

Post by Timmymagic »

Looks like CAMM-ER for the British Army is a thing...great news.

Just need the RN to get onboard now as well...well done to Gabi for getting an answer..


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Re: MBDA (UK)

Post by Jdam »

Seen this below that tweet.
"Mbda’s maritime launch system for sea ceptor is shorter than that for camm er, so installing them on types 26/31/32 will impact on what is currently below the launcher"
If they are resuing bits and bobs from the type 23 for the 31's camm er might not be possible.

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Re: MBDA (UK)

Post by Timmymagic »

Jdam wrote:Seen this below that tweet.
"Mbda’s maritime launch system for sea ceptor is shorter than that for camm er, so installing them on types 26/31/32 will impact on what is currently below the launcher"
If they are resuing bits and bobs from the type 23 for the 31's camm er might not be possible.
Could be true, or it could just mean extending them from the flush mounting that they currently sit in in the designs. Plenty of time for that in both T26 and T31 designs. And I have to say that if, in such large ships, specifically designed with the mantra of steel is cheap and air is free, that the RN hasn't left some growth room for an obvious improvement then someone running the requirements needs sacking...

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Re: MBDA (UK)

Post by Timmymagic »

Joint Fire Support Missile (JFS-M) concept from MBDA Germany. 3 missiles per MLRS missile pod. 499+km range



Text from Soldier Und Technik

With the Joint Fire Support Missile, MBDA has only recently presented a concept that meets both the army's demands for a modern, long-range weapon and consistently continues the joint idea of ​​the armed forces.

By using the JFS-M in conjunction with artillery systems, the armed forces should be able to achieve a precise effect at a distance of up to 499 kilometers. "MBDA and KMW have know-how and many years of experience in the areas of stand-off weapons and system platforms (MARS II / MLRS)," said the company. When designing the JFS-M, tried and tested systems and subsystems as well as new technologies are used. According to information from MBDA, components used by the Bundeswehr are taken into account in the design. “In addition, the latest technologies such as interference-free GPS navigation, 3D flight planning and image-based navigation sensors are used.

According to a KMW representative during the presentation, investigations had shown that both the MARS II rocket artillery system used in the Bundeswehr and other tracked or wheeled vehicles, such as the Boxer or an IVECO truck with a protected cabin, are basically suitable as carrier platforms would. Up to three JFS-M can be accommodated in a standardized rocket pod container. Since the MARS can accommodate two such pods, a mixed armament of the system - three JFS-M and, for example, six GMLRS missiles - can be ammunitioned as a combat load.

The next step would be to commission the Bundeswehr to implement the new type of active agent for artillery. According to the company, an operational capability of the JFS-M “a few years after the contract was signed” would be realistic.

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Re: MBDA (UK)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Much like ground-launched SDB2?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: MBDA (UK)

Post by Timmymagic »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Much like ground-launched SDB2?
No.
It's powered for one. Some sort of MMW or IR seeker head and targeting algorithm and much greater range. Presumably the ability to loiter for a period as well (although realistically thats going to be dependent on range and not likely to be more than a maximum of 30 mins).

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Re: MBDA (UK)

Post by Jdam »

The first customer for CAMM Extended Range for naval used is apparently the Pakistan Navy (would not have been my guess) and MBDA has been awarded a contract to equip the Brazilian Navy.

CAMM seems to be doing very well. :thumbup:

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Re: MBDA (UK)

Post by TheLoneRanger »

Jdam wrote:The first customer for CAMM Extended Range for naval used is apparently the Pakistan Navy (would not have been my guess) and MBDA has been awarded a contract to equip the Brazilian Navy.

CAMM seems to be doing very well. :thumbup:
Most of the Pakistani defence forums are very suprised about the choice, but it is being warmly received given its capabilites and low maintence costs compared to other options. They will be used to equip the Milgem class of ships that Turkey is building for Pakistan(4 of them ). Given the Milgem will form the basis of a "Jinnah" class of ships - ie customised Pakistani variants that will be built on mass in Pakistan(2 of the 4 will be done in Pakistan), then there is the possibility of substantial followup sales for MBDA UK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinnah-class_frigate

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MILGEM_project

Win win for all.

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Re: MBDA (UK)

Post by Ron5 »

So Chinese technicians crawling all over CAMM?

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Re: MBDA (UK)

Post by TheLoneRanger »

Ron5 wrote:So Chinese technicians crawling all over CAMM?
How would they be crawling all over the CAMM? A bit like saying the Russians will be crawling all over the Meteor missiles sold to India ?

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Re: MBDA (UK)

Post by Ron5 »

Very true.

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Re: MBDA (UK)

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CAMM-ER test footage.


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Re: MBDA (UK)

Post by Timmymagic »

Worth a quick read, peanuts in the grand scheme of things but useful work none the less..


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Re: MBDA (UK)

Post by J. Tattersall »

Timmymagic wrote:Worth a quick read, peanuts in the grand scheme of things but useful work none the less..

Press release says: explore how inter-missile communication can enable the weapons systems to work together and also improve the performance of current systems. It'll be interesting to see what performance improvements are being investigated

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Re: MBDA (UK)

Post by Ron5 »

J. Tattersall wrote:
Timmymagic wrote:Worth a quick read, peanuts in the grand scheme of things but useful work none the less..

Press release says: explore how inter-missile communication can enable the weapons systems to work together and also improve the performance of current systems. It'll be interesting to see what performance improvements are being investigated
Chatting between themselves to make sure only one goes for each target??

Something I thought Brimstone already did.

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Re: MBDA (UK)

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https://www.gov.uk/government/news/dstl ... artnership

CW ITP is a major Anglo-French collaborative programme for missile research and development. MBDA will act as the prime and will coordinate research with major suppliers in the UK and France on behalf of Dstl and the French Direction Générale de l’Armement (DGA).

The CW ITP is worth £40m over 4 years, with Dstl, DGA and UK and French industries all contributing towards this total amount.

The governments of both the UK and France have shown a commitment to harness the opportunities innovation can present for the benefit of their Defence capabilities. This new 4-year contract follows on from the work of the Materials and Components for Missiles Innovation Technology Partnership (MCM ITP) over the last 13 years. The CW ITP will collaboratively identify and develop revolutionary and innovative technology to enhance complex weapons capability in both nations for the 2030s and beyond.

Dstl’s Platform Systems Division Head, Matt Chinn said:

The new framework is fantastic and will see a sharp focus on 5 Enduring Technical Areas (ETAs) identified as unique and critical to the field of complex weapons. The capability improvements and potential disruptors will help deliver battle-winning and generation-after-next missile technologies, sustaining UK and France’s industrial and scientific base.

A renewed group of UK and French companies, split equally across both nations, will lead the ETAs:

MBDA for material, structure, electronics and mission systems and algorithms
Thales and Leonardo UK for seekers
Safran and Roxel UK for propulsion
Thales UK and CEA (the French Alternative Energies and Atomic Energy Commission) for lethality

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Re: MBDA (UK)

Post by J. Tattersall »

SW1 wrote:https://www.gov.uk/government/news/dstl ... artnership

CW ITP is a major Anglo-French collaborative programme for missile research and development. MBDA will act as the prime and will coordinate research with major suppliers in the UK and France on behalf of Dstl and the French Direction Générale de l’Armement (DGA).

The CW ITP is worth £40m over 4 years, with Dstl, DGA and UK and French industries all contributing towards this total amount.

The governments of both the UK and France have shown a commitment to harness the opportunities innovation can present for the benefit of their Defence capabilities. This new 4-year contract follows on from the work of the Materials and Components for Missiles Innovation Technology Partnership (MCM ITP) over the last 13 years. The CW ITP will collaboratively identify and develop revolutionary and innovative technology to enhance complex weapons capability in both nations for the 2030s and beyond.

Dstl’s Platform Systems Division Head, Matt Chinn said:

The new framework is fantastic and will see a sharp focus on 5 Enduring Technical Areas (ETAs) identified as unique and critical to the field of complex weapons. The capability improvements and potential disruptors will help deliver battle-winning and generation-after-next missile technologies, sustaining UK and France’s industrial and scientific base.

A renewed group of UK and French companies, split equally across both nations, will lead the ETAs:

MBDA for material, structure, electronics and mission systems and algorithms
Thales and Leonardo UK for seekers
Safran and Roxel UK for propulsion
Thales UK and CEA (the French Alternative Energies and Atomic Energy Commission) for lethality
This is interesting, while the European Defence Agency's flagship R&T project (the EDA Joint Investment Programme or JIP) essentially flopped and faded away the UK-France Innovation & Technology Partnership (ITP) has endured.

The characteristics of the ITP seem to be the linking in of a broad industry and academic research base into a cross-border prime contractor with shared state(s) and industry funding; i.e. linking lower level TRLs to a route to market. Having originally been set up in 2008 it's quite likely that the early years' investment has now been pulled through into technology in products.

Compare this with JIPs in which there was no clear route to market, where industry bore little of any of the risk, and where EDA members had essentially to pitch up with a contribution to be put in a pot (aka pork barrel if I'm unkind) and then lobby the same EDA as to how their financial contribution should be spent within the programme.

What is of course missing in the ITP is German and Italian participation, both of which nations have MBDA interests and a significant but lesser complex weapons technology base than UK or France. The unanswered question is whether over time they will concentrate their resources more and more on subsystems technologies and gradually loose a whole systems capability.

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Re: MBDA (UK)

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SW1 wrote:https://www.gov.uk/government/news/dstl ... artnership

CW ITP is a major Anglo-French collaborative programme for missile research and development. MBDA will act as the prime and will coordinate research with major suppliers in the UK and France on behalf of Dstl and the French Direction Générale de l’Armement (DGA).

The CW ITP is worth £40m over 4 years, with Dstl, DGA and UK and French industries all contributing towards this total amount.

The governments of both the UK and France have shown a commitment to harness the opportunities innovation can present for the benefit of their Defence capabilities. This new 4-year contract follows on from the work of the Materials and Components for Missiles Innovation Technology Partnership (MCM ITP) over the last 13 years. The CW ITP will collaboratively identify and develop revolutionary and innovative technology to enhance complex weapons capability in both nations for the 2030s and beyond.

Dstl’s Platform Systems Division Head, Matt Chinn said:

The new framework is fantastic and will see a sharp focus on 5 Enduring Technical Areas (ETAs) identified as unique and critical to the field of complex weapons. The capability improvements and potential disruptors will help deliver battle-winning and generation-after-next missile technologies, sustaining UK and France’s industrial and scientific base.

A renewed group of UK and French companies, split equally across both nations, will lead the ETAs:

MBDA for material, structure, electronics and mission systems and algorithms
Thales and Leonardo UK for seekers
Safran and Roxel UK for propulsion
Thales UK and CEA (the French Alternative Energies and Atomic Energy Commission) for lethality
I'm struggling to find any UK owned companies in that list. Sad.

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Re: MBDA (UK)

Post by J. Tattersall »

Ron5 wrote:
SW1 wrote:https://www.gov.uk/government/news/dstl ... artnership

CW ITP is a major Anglo-French collaborative programme for missile research and development. MBDA will act as the prime and will coordinate research with major suppliers in the UK and France on behalf of Dstl and the French Direction Générale de l’Armement (DGA).

The CW ITP is worth £40m over 4 years, with Dstl, DGA and UK and French industries all contributing towards this total amount.

The governments of both the UK and France have shown a commitment to harness the opportunities innovation can present for the benefit of their Defence capabilities. This new 4-year contract follows on from the work of the Materials and Components for Missiles Innovation Technology Partnership (MCM ITP) over the last 13 years. The CW ITP will collaboratively identify and develop revolutionary and innovative technology to enhance complex weapons capability in both nations for the 2030s and beyond.

Dstl’s Platform Systems Division Head, Matt Chinn said:

The new framework is fantastic and will see a sharp focus on 5 Enduring Technical Areas (ETAs) identified as unique and critical to the field of complex weapons. The capability improvements and potential disruptors will help deliver battle-winning and generation-after-next missile technologies, sustaining UK and France’s industrial and scientific base.

A renewed group of UK and French companies, split equally across both nations, will lead the ETAs:

MBDA for material, structure, electronics and mission systems and algorithms
Thales and Leonardo UK for seekers
Safran and Roxel UK for propulsion
Thales UK and CEA (the French Alternative Energies and Atomic Energy Commission) for lethality
I'm struggling to find any UK owned companies in that list. Sad.
MBDA is 37.5% owned by BAE Systems, 37.5% by Airbus and 25% by Leonardo. All 3 companies have major R&D and production facilities in UK and technology and intellectual they generate is subject to UK defence and security export regulations. BTW other than for private companies or state owned industries there's no such things as a country owned industry, rather stocks held by individuals or institutions.

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