UK Defence Forum

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Don't think that what I said and you responded are at odds. Or even touch each other, in any way??
- it was not about launch methods, either

"ecosystem"

You said that they were moving away from an environment where losing one contract kills the whole company. I disagreed.

"ecosystem"

OK, now I understand.

So , we are no nearer to an ecosystem ?

ArmChairCivvy wrote:

"ecosystem"

OK, now I understand.

So , we are no nearer to an ecosystem ?

I don't think any love is lost between Babcock's and Bae

Ron5 wrote: love is lost between Babcock's and Bae

But they do need 'adopted sons' to stretch (and shrink) capacity at low cost... C&L springs to mind

Ron5 wrote:

ArmChairCivvy wrote:

tomuk wrote: sent to Cammell Laird to launch RRS Sir David Attenborough

Small, but tangible proof of UK shipbuilding becoming an 'ecosystem' rather than just insular companies, in which type of environment losing one contract kills the whole company off
- cranes to Belfast, and all that

If Bae Govan doesn't get the type 26 batch 2 order, they close. Forever.

Good thing it will then

Nothing really new here but good news for UKPLC nonetheless.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/1 ... ssia-grow/

Dragonfire speculation.

QinetiQ said that it expected losses of £14.5 million on what it called “a large, complex project” could it possibly be losses incurred on their coherently combined fibre laser and the associated phase control system for Dragonfire, after what appears to be the failure of Dragonfire.

What makes me wonder is the precedent on the Northrop Grumman laser burning out earlier this year.

From <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/qine ... -sv0xxnbfm>

Poiuytrewq wrote: ↑17 Nov 2021, 23:29 Nothing really new here but good news for UKPLC nonetheless.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/1 ... ssia-grow/

In early November, the UK signed a treaty with Ukraine for British exports to go to Ukraine to enhance its maritime presence. The treaty will enable Kyiv to seek loans from the UK to buy British warships and missiles.

The deal will include the procurement of two mine countermeasure vessels, the joint production of eight missile ships, as well as the delivery of and retrofit of weapons systems to existing vessels.

There will also be the joint production of a frigate and technical support to the country for the building of naval infrastructure.

I just hope Ukraine is still there this time next year otherwise it could be a bit embarrassing donating ships to Putin.

I’m surprised HMG haven’t considered a barter deal like we did with the Saudis back in the day - Ukraine has a lot of gas

Tempest414 wrote: ↑06 Nov 2021, 11:06 So as of the start of 2022 the RN will have

1 x Frigate
1 x Bay class
2 x River Class
4 x MCM

East of Suez for me if we added another frigate plus a tanker and RFA Argus this could allow 3 good groups EoS

Group 1 ) 1 x frigate , 1 x Bay , 4 x MCM = Gulf
Group 2 ) 1 x frigate , Argus = LRG EoS
group 3 ) 1 x tanker , 2 x OPV's = Patrol group EoS

Group 1 would remain in the gulf at all times and groups 2 & 3 could deploy across the Indo-Pacific and if needed come together to form a LRG+

I am still not sold on the two River B2 deployed EoS. They are perfect for flying the flag / assisting with humanitarian aid / policing fishing in EEZ in Caribbean, Falklands and Gibralter, all British Overseas Territories. EoS we have the tiny Pitcairn Island and Diego Garcia, the latter of which is mainly US base.

I am concerned we are putting Spey and Tamar in harms way where you would really need a Frigate to be able to stand up for itself against similar sized vessels.

But the rest of your suggestion I like, especially if the Frigate and Wildcats in the Gulf have been equipped with Martlett, to give a simple, cheapish extra weapon against fast boats and drones.

Poiuytrewq wrote: ↑17 Nov 2021, 23:29 Nothing really new here but good news for UKPLC nonetheless.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/1 ... ssia-grow/

In early November, the UK signed a treaty with Ukraine for British exports to go to Ukraine to enhance its maritime presence. The treaty will enable Kyiv to seek loans from the UK to buy British warships and missiles.

The deal will include the procurement of two mine countermeasure vessels, the joint production of eight missile ships, as well as the delivery of and retrofit of weapons systems to existing vessels.

There will also be the joint production of a frigate and technical support to the country for the building of naval infrastructure.

Let's hope that Ukraine does nt get further invaded by Russia until not only these shipbuilding contracts have been finished, but that also that we have been paid for it by Ukranian government!!

Forgive my black humour, but I feel the same whenever I see that Taiwan is investing in a two-three year long military acquisition project. In both cases I hope these are completed, delivered and paid for.

Presumably this will involve the joint production of T31e, finally justifying it's suffix!!

The Suffix was removed some time ago !

Hmmm

Elementary my dear Watson……

The way China is behaving I'm surprised the US has not offered a military support package similar to Israel. Give them Iron Dome and enough anti ship and TLAM missiles to make China think twice and they will guarantee their sovereignty.

BB85 wrote: ↑22 Nov 2021, 16:24 The way China is behaving I'm surprised the US has not offered a military support package similar to Israel. Give them Iron Dome and enough anti ship and TLAM missiles to make China think twice and they will guarantee their sovereignty.

We are talking about Taiwan I guess? They already have indigenous Cruise Missiles and a ABM capability, but China literally had hundreds of intermediate and short ranged ballistic missiles within range of Taiwan. Even sea based ABM systems are vulnerable to the number of AShMs China can deploy. Taiwan needs the US who are by law obliged to come to its aid if China were to attack.

Sorry going off topic again.

Lord Jim wrote: ↑22 Nov 2021, 16:43 Taiwan needs the US who are by law obliged to come to its aid if China were to attack.

You are thinking about Japan, not Taiwan.

Scimitar54 wrote: ↑22 Nov 2021, 07:58 The Suffix was removed some time ago !

Sorry it was an attempt at irony, as in selling one single T31 to Ukraine would justify the e suffix!

Perhaps it should stand for Eukraine then !

wargame_insomniac wrote: ↑22 Nov 2021, 21:10

Scimitar54 wrote: ↑22 Nov 2021, 07:58 The Suffix was removed some time ago !

Sorry it was an attempt at irony, as in selling one single T31 to Ukraine would justify the e suffix!

But Babcocks already has an export order for Type 31 / A-140 with Indonesia for two ships

Ron5 wrote: ↑22 Nov 2021, 17:53

Lord Jim wrote: ↑22 Nov 2021, 16:43 Taiwan needs the US who are by law obliged to come to its aid if China were to attack.

You are thinking about Japan, not Taiwan.

No I am pretty sure that at the same time the US recognised Communist China as the China it passed a law binding the USA to the defence of Taiwan if China tried to forcefully incorporate the islands.

The T-31 appears to be a slow burner on the export market. Because of its size and innate flexibility of design I can see other order following. It is also a good design for countries wanting to expand their own ship building capability to larger warships. Fully tooled up it is a viable warship that should be cheaper then other offerings on the market. IF design also makes it easier for the vessel to be upgraded later on by its owners. If the RN modified theirs it should also increase interest in the design from other countries, hopefully.

This articles says SkySabre (or LandCeptor)'s radar can handle 24 CAMM missiles at once.

T23 has 32 CAMM. T26 has 48 CAMM. And, T31 has 12 CAMM... Surely, not only T31, but even T23/26 is not fully utilizing the systems capacity. Increasing its number shall be important.

Hope T26 batch2 carries 96 CAMM.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/new-bri ... s-service/

donald_of_tokyo wrote: ↑06 Dec 2021, 13:13 This articles says SkySabre (or LandCeptor)'s radar can handle 24 CAMM missiles at once.

T23 has 32 CAMM. T26 has 48 CAMM. And, T31 has 12 CAMM... Surely, not only T31, but even T23/26 is not fully utilizing the systems capacity. Increasing its number shall be important.

Hope T26 batch2 carries 96 CAMM.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/new-bri ... s-service/

Completely agree, also I wonder how similar the Sea Giraffe AMB is and it's capabilities for smaller vessels.

donald_of_tokyo wrote: ↑06 Dec 2021, 13:13 This articles says SkySabre (or LandCeptor)'s radar can handle 24 CAMM missiles at once.

T23 has 32 CAMM. T26 has 48 CAMM. And, T31 has 12 CAMM... Surely, not only T31, but even T23/26 is not fully utilizing the systems capacity. Increasing its number shall be important.

Hope T26 batch2 carries 96 CAMM.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/new-bri ... s-service/

We've been told that the Sea Ceptor architectural limit is 48 cells per system. Hence the 48 on the Type 26's. Or maybe the other way around

donald_of_tokyo wrote: ↑06 Dec 2021, 13:13 This articles says SkySabre (or LandCeptor)'s radar can handle 24 CAMM missiles at once.

T23 has 32 CAMM. T26 has 48 CAMM. And, T31 has 12 CAMM... Surely, not only T31, but even T23/26 is not fully utilizing the systems capacity. Increasing its number shall be important.

Hope T26 batch2 carries 96 CAMM.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/new-bri ... s-service/

Agree totally. Especially when you consider that the UK's AAW specialist, the T45 Destroyers only have 48-cell A50 VLS for Aster missiles. When compared to 90-96 cell Mk41 VLS on Arleigh Burke Class and even more on Ticonderoga Class.

I know that T45 are due to get a 24 cell CAMM but the "six ships are likely to be upgraded in the 2026 to 2032 period". It would be most polite if noone attacjed us for the next decade as we finally belatedly fit a wespon system that was FFBNW....