Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[donald_of_tokyo]

IMHO, crew and equipment are two sides of the same coin. Shiny new kit with 21st century accommodation wireless everywhere on a high profile trip around the world will not have problems finding crew. "Build it and they will come"

Interesting point. But, shiny new ships were there for long. For example, it is officially stated that at least one T45 has long been in extended readiness because of lack of crew. Shiny new kits, which should have improved the retention rate, was NOT USED for years. This has nothing to do with its propulsion issue. The other 4 or 5 T45 was always used.

Please do not get me wrong. I am NOT against current 5 T31 and 8 T26 building. Just saying T32 is NOT in hurry. RN will find big difficulty to man all the new T31s and T26s. Even though they require relatively less man power, RN can use them in much more high-tempo than current T23 fleet, because they are new and not needing intensive maintenance.

And this will put big burden on crew daily life. Less time at home. So, more crew is needed to "over crew" all the new ships.

When these assets become a bit "tired" (say, around 2035-2040), then longer maintenance will be needed, and it will allow less tension on crew. It is exactly at this moment, RN needs T32 (or more T26 or T83).

Not now.

And now, RN has many many things to invest. Ammo and man-power, ammo and man-power, and ammo and man-power, and then drones, ASMs, BMDs etc...

[Poiuytrewq]

[around 2035-2040)

If so, what is Rosyth going to do between 2026 and 2033?

[SD67]

[around 2035-2040)

If so, what is Rosyth going to do between 2026 and 2033?

Rebuild the Ukrainian Navy, financed by a long term 4 billion £ loan from DFID / the Business Bank / the Export Guarantee Facility secured against future gas supplies from the Donbas

(IMHO)

[serge750]

I know it won't happen, but, I would love it if we could build Early replacements for the Albion class with lower crew levels & hanger with more of a focus on drones air/sea & sub surface deployment....not just a assault ship but a secondary drone control ship ?

[Repulse]

I know it won't happen, but, I would love it if we could build Early replacements for the Albion class with lower crew levels & hanger with more of a focus on drones air/sea & sub surface deployment....not just a assault ship but a secondary drone control ship ?

These things are 2 separate requirements, which is why both the “T32” and future LPD replacements are needed.

[Repulse]

As I understand it, one of the issues of forward operating the T31s is the plan for double crewing like the Kipion T23. This is where perhaps where all these sailors are going.

Another argument for keeping the B2s in their current roles IMO.

[Poiuytrewq]

[around 2035-2040)

If so, what is Rosyth going to do between 2026 and 2033?

Rebuild the Ukrainian Navy, financed by a long term 4 billion £ loan from DFID / the Business Bank / the Export Guarantee Facility secured against future gas supplies from the Donbas
(IMHO)

I agree here as very little will be getting built in Mykolaiv for the foreseeable.

Plenty of capacity to slot the Ukraine builds in between the RN builds if required to maintain the drumbeat.

[Poiuytrewq]

These things are 2 separate requirements, which is why both the “T32” and future LPD replacements are needed.

Since when did the mothership have to be a Frigate?

It’s clear that the T31 was a missed opportunity as the chosen design failed to unlock the full potential of the hull but I am still not convinced that RN really needs a class of five hybrid Frigates.

Especially if they cost £500m+ per hull.

[donald_of_tokyo]

[around 2035-2040)

If so, what is Rosyth going to do between 2026 and 2033?

If RN build 5 T32 to be delivered between 2030-3034, what is Rosyth going to do from 2033? No escort is foreseeable.

No difference.

Thus, ordering T32 around 2035 will make nothing worse.

In fact, Rosyth need to build something other than T3X series for sure.

[SD67]

We’ll the National Shipbuilding Strategy refresh lists new OPVs from about 2035 ish so there’s that to play for as well.

[Dobbo]

Some further (semi-speculative) comment on the T83.

We have seen how the Italian navy are proposing a 12-13k destroyer/cruiser. The German navy are now proposing (I believe the F127 concept but happy to stand corrected) a similar sized AAW “frigate” (they want 6 of them).

[Tempest414]

IMHO, crew and equipment are two sides of the same coin. Shiny new kit with 21st century accommodation wireless everywhere on a high profile trip around the world will not have problems finding crew. "Build it and they will come"

Interesting point. But, shiny new ships were there for long. For example, it is officially stated that at least one T45 has long been in extended readiness because of lack of crew. Shiny new kits, which should have improved the retention rate, was NOT USED for years. This has nothing to do with its propulsion issue. The other 4 or 5 T45 was always used.

Please do not get me wrong. I am NOT against current 5 T31 and 8 T26 building. Just saying T32 is NOT in hurry. RN will find big difficulty to man all the new T31s and T26s. Even though they require relatively less man power, RN can use them in much more high-tempo than current T23 fleet, because they are new and not needing intensive maintenance.

And this will put big burden on crew daily life. Less time at home. So, more crew is needed to "over crew" all the new ships.

When these assets become a bit "tired" (say, around 2035-2040), then longer maintenance will be needed, and it will allow less tension on crew. It is exactly at this moment, RN needs T32 (or more T26 or T83).

Not now.

And now, RN has many many things to invest. Ammo and man-power, ammo and man-power, and ammo and man-power, and then drones, ASMs, BMDs etc...

Here's a way out thought maybe the RN is saying ships are laid up due to crew when the real reason is the Ships them self we all know the T-23's are being nursed to the end now plus we all know the T-45's up until now are better off in port in case they brake down

Now as for the Echo class they are 20 years old and have been work hard operating a 1.5 crew in the same way as the RB2's which should give us some idea of the life of the RB2's this is many ways back up by the RB1's which would going out of service now but for the need to push them on a bit until the some B2's can be released

[Poiuytrewq]

[around 2035-2040)

If so, what is Rosyth going to do between 2026 and 2033?

Same as now: sitting around drinking beer, smoking, and talking about fitball.

[donald_of_tokyo]

Here's a way out thought maybe the RN is saying ships are laid up due to crew when the real reason is the Ships them self we all know the T-23's are being nursed to the end now plus we all know the T-45's up until now are better off in port in case they brake down

Now as for the Echo class they are 20 years old and have been work hard operating a 1.5 crew in the same way as the RB2's which should give us some idea of the life of the RB2's this is many ways back up by the RB1's which would going out of service now but for the need to push them on a bit until the some B2's can be released

May be may be not. I cannot understand you always trying to think little of man-power shortage. Skilled man-power is the heart of RN. Not letting them worn out is always at the highest priority. I am proposing "improve man-power" to make RN more powerful. I am also proposing to "make ammo-stock larger" to make RN more powerful.

I think I am never saying anything negative, decreasing RN power. Only positive comment.

Improve man-power. Then, RN will get more powerful.

[Zeno]

Since bringing back press gangs are oh so frowned apon by the modern generation perhaps the government could consider a radical idea of increasing pays to attract recruits however tempting the idea of sending out press gangs outside some areas could be lol

[SD67]

Since bringing back press gangs are oh so frowned apon by the modern generation perhaps the government could consider a radical idea of increasing pays to attract recruits however tempting the idea of sending out press gangs outside some areas could be lol

Well theres 60,000 people who have shown a buccaneering maritime spirit, the old press gang may come in handy

“Service guarantees citizenship”

[Tempest414]

Here's a way out thought maybe the RN is saying ships are laid up due to crew when the real reason is the Ships them self we all know the T-23's are being nursed to the end now plus we all know the T-45's up until now are better off in port in case they brake down

Now as for the Echo class they are 20 years old and have been work hard operating a 1.5 crew in the same way as the RB2's which should give us some idea of the life of the RB2's this is many ways back up by the RB1's which would going out of service now but for the need to push them on a bit until the some B2's can be released

May be may be not. I cannot understand you always trying to think little of man-power shortage. Skilled man-power is the heart of RN. Not letting them worn out is always at the highest priority. I am proposing "improve man-power" to make RN more powerful. I am also proposing to "make ammo-stock larger" to make RN more powerful.

I think I am never saying anything negative, decreasing RN power. Only positive comment.

Improve man-power. Then, RN will get more powerful.

It is never the whole story is it manpower is one part. The RN/RM stands at 30,000 if we add all the crews for every ship and Sub we have over 1500 tons and the all of the RM it comes 14,000 people this includes both Echos
this leaves 16,000 people for other jobs

[SW1]

Of course crewing issues could have resulted from the fact the aircraft carriers were due to have a crew “equivalent to invincible 650” but now closer to 800 and that only one was due to be in service but the 2015 sdsr at the swish of pen decided both would be in service without any manpower consideration so another 800 sailors to find.

Mind you if you want resilience in the system each crew should be manned to 115% to allow for leave/training/sickness ect.

Maybe then people wouldn’t be overtasked with multiple deployments and no family time.
Maybe even spend money on base infrastructure leading to less family peessures which may ease retention.

Overall the manpower issue has many causes and goes back to poor capital allocation by the service chiefs over the past 30 years.

Less tasks and set priorities build more resilience a must.

As escorts are now a billion quid each someone before long will be asking why so many are unusable at anyone time it’s an eye watering amount of cash for little utility. The ship itself needs to spend much more time at sea and therefore the crew to ship ratio will need to increase from here imo.

[SD67]

Here's a way out thought maybe the RN is saying ships are laid up due to crew when the real reason is the Ships them self we all know the T-23's are being nursed to the end now plus we all know the T-45's up until now are better off in port in case they brake down

Now as for the Echo class they are 20 years old and have been work hard operating a 1.5 crew in the same way as the RB2's which should give us some idea of the life of the RB2's this is many ways back up by the RB1's which would going out of service now but for the need to push them on a bit until the some B2's can be released

May be may be not. I cannot understand you always trying to think little of man-power shortage. Skilled man-power is the heart of RN. Not letting them worn out is always at the highest priority. I am proposing "improve man-power" to make RN more powerful. I am also proposing to "make ammo-stock larger" to make RN more powerful.

I think I am never saying anything negative, decreasing RN power. Only positive comment.

Improve man-power. Then, RN will get more powerful.

According to the OnS the Navy’s trained manpower has been on an upward trend for 5/6 years, from 25,100 to 27,200. Not huge but it’s moving in the right direction. I think sending the River B2s around the world may be growing the next generation of senior crew. I also question whether the RN really is short of crew right now it seems more shortage of working ships. Last time I was in Torquay there seemed to be quite a few well rested Navy types hanging around.

Hunts and Sandowns are going
River Batch 1 ditto
I also suspect there may be a few Ukrainians on board in the late 2020s both being trainings and keeping numbers up

[Ron5]

As escorts are now a billion quid each someone before long will be asking why so many are unusable at anyone time it’s an eye watering amount of cash for little utility

So about 3 Tempests worth with 50% availability between trips to periodic maintenance & breakdowns.

[SD67]

A billion in capex terms is chump change for a government. 40 million a year over a 25 year life. HMT were budgeting 40 billion for HS2 over the next 2 Years. The Airtanker PFI is I believe 13 billion.

[Poiuytrewq]

Moved across:

Impressive is the two ISO containers.

Super Photo!
Interesting how flexible the design appears to be and how capable an extended Batch3 version could ultimately become.

So what about RB2s?? How much further "stretch" is there still left in RB2 design?

Plenty of potential for stretching and personally I am disappointed that HMG haven’t got a River Batch 3 in the water even just from an export perspective. There is a rational argument that slotting in occasional OPVs for export into the Govan/Scotstoun work schedule would enable cheaper Frigates to be procured for RN. Actually the River Class is already a pretty decent export success for BAE but the design is no longer cutting edge and it’s unlikely the phone is ringing off of the hook with prospective RB3 purchasers.

However it’s a capable hull and a missed opportunity from a RN perspective. Hulls four and five really should have included hangers and a LOA of around 105m.

The BAE avenger at 111m illustrates clearly what could be achieved with a crew/flight accommodation of around 70 if required plus another 50 extra PAX below the flight deck as per the RB2.

DB4012C4-87C8-4145-9FE0-D62702CBC868.jpeg

A 15m Wildcat hanger has also been added. The open working deck amidships is around 200m2 which is large enough for two CB90s/LCVPs or XLUUVs. Alternatively the amidships working deck could embark 6 to 8 TEUs plus two more either side of the hanger. The 16t crane would need to be relocated ideally aft of the superstructure and two 8m RHIBs could also be accommodated. In addition the RB2s can embark up to 6 TEU on the flight deck giving a 111m RB3 a potential to embark up to 16 TEUs even if a helo is embarked. That’s a huge capacity for an OPV.

Alternatively the amidships working deck could be covered to create a mini T26 style mission area with port/starboard hatches. This is a much more expensive option and in many ways limits capability. The Leander concept illustrates this option very well.

EEFE78E0-12D1-4BAB-A4E0-43A688FEA446.jpeg

Should RN replace the RB1s with three or more RB3s with a LOA between 105m and 111m? It wouldn’t be a bad option and if it happened export success may follow but it really depends on fleet balance and what RN choose to do with the T31/T32.

Although tempting I think there are better options for a Royal Navy next generation, high capacity, globally deployed Ocean Patrol Vessel than a stretched River Class Batch 2.

[donald_of_tokyo]

I know a number of people laughed at the Avenger concept, but the right answer for the T31 was always an Avenger built by Babcock, coupled with another T26 IMO.

Appreciate things have moved on, and the potential for a continued pipeline of River evolutionary batches seems unlikely, but the argument remains. A solid design for an affordable Sloop of War that can be built in numbers, evolve and support a solid and sustainable pipeline that could be the future backbone of the surface fleet.

[Poiuytrewq]

I know a number of people laughed at the Avenger concept, but the right answer for the T31 was always an Avenger built by Babcock, coupled with another T26 IMO.

Water under the bridge now.

However the capability is worth exploring. If a 111m RB3 could embark and deploy two XLUUVs plus four heavy lift UAVs with sonobuoys whilst towing a containerised Captas 2 or 4compact what would be more efficient to sanitise an area in the Littoral? All for around £250m to £300m? Two or three such vessels operating in the Mediterranean with a few P8’s would be a nightmare for SSKs operating in the area.

Likewise two or three RB3s operating in the Littoral each with a Wildcat, 2x CB90s, 2x 8m RHIBs and 50 marines embarked. Containerised CAMM via Pods and a 40mm deck gun would add a reasonable level of self defence.

It would be a massive force multiplier for a modest outlay with a zero risk design. Also interesting that despite its much higher cost the T31 will be neither CB90 or XLUUV capable.

[Repulse]

However the capability is worth exploring.

Absolutely, and if the ambition is there then the future (and unknown) design for the four LSV could be that opportunity.

I’m sure there will be the usual big is beautiful discussions, but a ship of a similar size to what you suggest is the right answer to the UK’s Littoral blind spot when combined with unmanned ASW/MCM systems and optionally the ability to act as a platform for sub company level RM operations.

I think also that if these 4 could be combined with an additional 3 to replace the B1 Rivers and ultimately another 5 to start to replace the B2s in another 10 years then you’ll have a class size of 12, which gives a real and sustainable solution.