Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by tomuk »

Repulse wrote: 21 Nov 2022, 19:50
Ron5 wrote: 21 Nov 2022, 14:11
Repulse wrote: 20 Nov 2022, 15:48 The RN does need three new OPVs to replace the B1s.
Surely the plan is to replace the B2's with the T31's and the B1's with the B2's. Which would mean no new OPV's.
I know that’s the current plan, but I believe it’s the wrong plan.

All the GP T23s will have been decommissioned by the point that all 5 T31s are in the water, probably sooner.

Putting aside a minute the T32 debate whose commissioning will be at-least 5 if not 10 years after this date, what exactly are we not going to be doing today to allow the 2-3 T31s to be used in roles not currently supported by the GP T23s?
Of the five GPs we have one has been decommisioned, one is on its way back from the gulf to be decommisioned, one is on the way to the gulf and two are in refit.

Other than covering Kipion what other duties are the T23 GPs covering?
Given, unless something significant changes, 1 T31 will be required for Kipion, what for example will be escorting the LRG? I honestly think that even the five T31s will be stretched covering these two standing commitments.

Kipion takes one vessel on an extended basis. Anything can and has escorted LRG I wouldn't call it a standing commiment.
Better to leave the B2s where they are and focus the high end force where people believe the threat is.
ooh T31 is a high end force now? I thought it was no good and we needed more B2s
Also, I understand the OPVs are no longer responsible for fisheries in the UK EEZ, but there are numerous surveillance, anti-terrorism and escorting roles that are needed. Using frigates for these low level tasks is a very inefficient way of doing this - having numerous ships on station ready to act is key, and to replace the availability of one B1 River would require 2 T31s.
T31 is a brand new modestly armed ship designed with availability and maintainability in mind it will not take 2 T31s to replace 1 old well worn B1 River.
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Tempest414 »

Rather than talking about what replaces what we need to work on how we can do a lot more with a little more.

The type 23 are shot they should of started being replaced 10 year ago and we are now paying the price with low sea going days and long refits

As type 31 comes on line things will get better for ships at sea. They should have 24 to 30 CAMM plus NSM as standard this along with there helicopter and gun fit plus there long range and lower crew numbers would make them good global patrol frigates

The B2 River class are showing them self to be a good platform with some good options starting to show for me they do need a 40mm as a base line plus something like a Camcopter S-300 for OTH search. we have seen they can carry and deploy armed unmanned pacific 950 and RM in ORC

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by SW1 »

Personally they need to be talking about doing less with the same or less with less to allow contingency to be built up.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Ron5 »

Repulse wrote: 21 Nov 2022, 19:50
Ron5 wrote: 21 Nov 2022, 14:11
Repulse wrote: 20 Nov 2022, 15:48 The RN does need three new OPVs to replace the B1s.
Surely the plan is to replace the B2's with the T31's and the B1's with the B2's. Which would mean no new OPV's.
I know that’s the current plan, but I believe it’s the wrong plan.

All the GP T23s will have been decommissioned by the point that all 5 T31s are in the water, probably sooner.

Putting aside a minute the T32 debate whose commissioning will be at-least 5 if not 10 years after this date, what exactly are we not going to be doing today to allow the 2-3 T31s to be used in roles not currently supported by the GP T23s?

Given, unless something significant changes, 1 T31 will be required for Kipion, what for example will be escorting the LRG? I honestly think that even the five T31s will be stretched covering these two standing commitments.

Better to leave the B2s where they are and focus the high end force where people believe the threat is.

Also, I understand the OPVs are no longer responsible for fisheries in the UK EEZ, but there are numerous surveillance, anti-terrorism and escorting roles that are needed. Using frigates for these low level tasks is a very inefficient way of doing this - having numerous ships on station ready to act is key, and to replace the availability of one B1 River would require 2 T31s.
Excellent response.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Ron5 »

wargame_insomniac wrote: 21 Nov 2022, 18:20
Ron5 wrote: 21 Nov 2022, 17:01
Tempest414 wrote: 21 Nov 2022, 15:04
Ron5 wrote: 21 Nov 2022, 14:15 The RN is clear that the T31's are to perform peace time duties: showing the flag, maritime constabulary and are fitted appropriately for those tasks.

It would take major money to upgrade them to perform warlike tasks.

I suspect the Navy would chose to spend that hypothetical money in other places to much greater effect.
The problem is all RN escorts and OPV's ships are in need of up-arming type 31 needs a bit more like NSM and 24 to 30 CAMM , Type 45 needs NSM on top of the 24 extra CAMM , Type 23 will need NSM
In your opinion, with zero rationale.
@Ron5 - given how prickly you have been recently, an apt time to remind you of the quote of RN Escorts being "Porcupines - well defended herbivores with limited offensive capabilities".

Yes that's an opinion but it was the opinion of the Chairman of House of Commons Selecr Defence Committee. I hope you would give at least some weight.

Of the two suugested upgrades, fitting Kongsberg's NSM is one of the cheapest options:for Anti Ship / Land Attack missile to give RN Escorts an offensive weapon, probably containerised.

And the increase in number of CAMM was to give higher indurance against Russia8 and China. whilst requiring little extra RN Crew.
Neither the Rivers or the T31's are "escorts". They are peace time ships equipped for peace time missions.

Escorts are the T23, T26 & T45.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Ron5 »

SW1 wrote: 22 Nov 2022, 11:06 Personally they need to be talking about doing less with the same or less with less to allow contingency to be built up.
Spending more time in the pub only invites further cuts.

BTW, open your ears, the Navy has been very vocal on how it views its future.
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Tempest414 »

Quote from the 1st Sea Lord we are set to deliver Type 26 , Type 31 , Type 32 and the SSS in the next 10 to 15 years as well as the Dreadnought SSBN

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Repulse »

tomuk wrote: 21 Nov 2022, 21:07 Of the five GPs we have one has been decommisioned, one is on its way back from the gulf to be decommisioned, one is on the way to the gulf and two are in refit.

Other than covering Kipion what other duties are the T23 GPs covering?
- HMS Lancaster has been on NATO duties supporting Exercise MareAperto 22. HMS Argyll has just gone through a LIFEX and getting ready for duties.

As we all know, scrapping T23s early works as theirs is no need for further maintenance, effectively when one roles off active service it roles into the scrapyard. To manage an active fleet support Kipion and a NATO commitment which means two active, means at-least a pool of 5 frigates.
tomuk wrote: 21 Nov 2022, 21:07 Kipion takes one vessel on an extended basis. Anything can and has escorted LRG I wouldn't call it a standing commiment.
Anything can, but if you think there will be many T45s and ASW T23s/T26s spare to do this in the longer term is living on a hope and a prayer.
tomuk wrote: 21 Nov 2022, 21:07 ooh T31 is a high end force now? I thought it was no good and we needed more B2s
The general conversation at the moment is that Europe is the higher risk region, so it’s where we should be focusing our more capable platforms rather than using them for lower level constabulary / training / diplomacy operations.

My problem with the T31 is that it isn’t equipped to act as a high end escort, and even then I believe we should have more ASW optimised platforms. It also is too large / expensive to do a role that an OPV is doing.
tomuk wrote: 21 Nov 2022, 21:07 T31 is a brand new modestly armed ship designed with availability and maintainability in mind it will not take 2 T31s to replace 1 old well worn B1 River.
I’d be delighted if the T31 hits the 70%+ availability of the River Class, but it won’t.
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by tomuk »

Repulse wrote: 22 Nov 2022, 17:13
tomuk wrote: 21 Nov 2022, 21:07 Of the five GPs we have one has been decommisioned, one is on its way back from the gulf to be decommisioned, one is on the way to the gulf and two are in refit.

Other than covering Kipion what other duties are the T23 GPs covering?
- HMS Lancaster has been on NATO duties supporting Exercise MareAperto 22. HMS Argyll has just gone through a LIFEX and getting ready for duties.
Lancaster has been working up to replace Montrose and has been attached to NATO duties on its way to the Gulf. Argyll is in Devonport having a deep maintenance so she can stay in service instead of lifexing Monmouth or doing anywork to Montrose on her return.
As we all know, scrapping T23s early works as theirs is no need for further maintenance, effectively when one roles off active service it roles into the scrapyard. To manage an active fleet support Kipion and a NATO commitment which means two active, means at-least a pool of 5 frigates.
There isn't two taskings Lancaster is working with NATO during her deployment voyage and Montrose is on her farewell voyage back. It is just the changeover of the two ships. If we had the money we could deep maintenance Montrose and then swap her again with Lancaster ad infinitum. Two vessels one task Kipion. We are getting five T31 so that's three to rotate round the pacific tasks.
tomuk wrote: 21 Nov 2022, 21:07 Kipion takes one vessel on an extended basis. Anything can and has escorted LRG I wouldn't call it a standing commiment.
Anything can, but if you think there will be many T45s and ASW T23s/T26s spare to do this in the longer term is living on a hope and a prayer.
As T45s come off PIP, as T23s finish lifex and T26s come in, on top of the commitment by MOD and Navy to get more serviceable ships. We won't have any spare? Really?
tomuk wrote: 21 Nov 2022, 21:07 ooh T31 is a high end force now? I thought it was no good and we needed more B2s
The general conversation at the moment is that Europe is the higher risk region, so it’s where we should be focusing our more capable platforms rather than using them for lower level constabulary / training / diplomacy operations.
Doing what? Constabulary and diplomacy operations in the North Atlantic\Baltic? Is a T45 going to catch Vlad blowing up anther pipeline using his secret squirrel submarines?
My problem with the T31 is that it isn’t equipped to act as a high end escort, and even then I believe we should have more ASW optimised platforms. It also is too large / expensive to do a role that an OPV is doing.
The two glaringly obvious gaps in T31 capability are no AShM and no HMS. Now which other high end escorts don't have those either?

Or are we back to the nonsense argument that without a dozen more CAMM T31 is just a glorified OPV\Sloop.

On T31s size it is better that it is bigger as it aids serviceability and allows for future upgrades. On cost the T31 seems a lot better value than the forced purchse of the B2s
tomuk wrote: 21 Nov 2022, 21:07 T31 is a brand new modestly armed ship designed with availability and maintainability in mind it will not take 2 T31s to replace 1 old well worn B1 River.
I’d be delighted if the T31 hits the 70%+ availability of the River Class, but it won’t.
Do you have any numbers on that? What are the days at sea like for the B1s? How do the Danes get on with Absalon and Iver Huitfeldt?

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by SW1 »

Ron5 wrote: 22 Nov 2022, 15:10
SW1 wrote: 22 Nov 2022, 11:06 Personally they need to be talking about doing less with the same or less with less to allow contingency to be built up.
Spending more time in the pub only invites further cuts.

BTW, open your ears, the Navy has been very vocal on how it views its future.
You would have thought the start of this year would made them learn their lesson obviously not!

Yes its views change like the wind!

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Repulse wrote: 22 Nov 2022, 17:13
tomuk wrote: 21 Nov 2022, 21:07 Of the five GPs we have one has been decommisioned, one is on its way back from the gulf to be decommisioned, one is on the way to the gulf and two are in refit.

Other than covering Kipion what other duties are the T23 GPs covering?
- HMS Lancaster has been on NATO duties supporting Exercise MareAperto 22. HMS Argyll has just gone through a LIFEX and getting ready for duties.
As we all know, scrapping T23s early works as theirs is no need for further maintenance, effectively when one roles off active service it roles into the scrapyard. To manage an active fleet support Kipion and a NATO commitment which means two active, means at-least a pool of 5 frigates.
I think very good discussion it is.

Comment-1 (of 2): On how the T31 will/shall be used, my thought.

First of all, RN now is limited by crew number, not by hull number. This is fact. We must face it. So, all discussion must be based BOTH on ship availability and man-power.

Official information on T31 usage plan:
- A T31 will be stationed at Pacific, and another occasionally on Med. (See figure 2 of https://www.navylookout.com/a-future-vi ... ng-concept)
- And KIPION is there.

I think
- "T31 on Med" means "a T31 will be occasionally sent to NATO SNMG1 (north Atlantic) and 2 (Med).
- T31 as a new asset will see higher availability than T23GP. I guess 4 will be always crewed (1 in long maintenance).
- At least the 2 T31s in KIPION and Pacific will be double-crewed to support this high ship-availability, especially so when RN needs to improve retention rate.
- The 4th active T31 will be (I guess) needed for training/stand-up phase (as is now with Iron Duke). For sure, there is at least 1-3 years of work-up after "formation of a crew" for a T31 (when she is still under Babcock hands) to the ship "be ready for duty". The same after deep maintenance.

Thus, there is a need for at least 1 (stand-up) + 1 (Atlantic/Med) + 2 (KIPION) + 2 (Pacific) crew teams. T31 core-crew are said to be ~110, which means 660 souls will be needed. Now RN operates 3 T23GPs with 4 crews. Those onboard Montrose, Lancaster, Iron Duke, and another one as a rotation crew for KIPION. Core crew 180 x 4 = 720. Subtracting 660 souls, we have 60 souls left.

This is my assessment.

(continue)
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Repulse wrote: 22 Nov 2022, 17:13...
tomuk wrote: 21 Nov 2022, 21:07 Kipion takes one vessel on an extended basis. Anything can and has escorted LRG I wouldn't call it a standing commiment.
Anything can, but if you think there will be many T45s and ASW T23s/T26s spare to do this in the longer term is living on a hope and a prayer.
tomuk wrote: 21 Nov 2022, 21:07 ooh T31 is a high end force now? I thought it was no good and we needed more B2s
The general conversation at the moment is that Europe is the higher risk region, so it’s where we should be focusing our more capable platforms rather than using them for lower level constabulary / training / diplomacy operations.

My problem with the T31 is that it isn’t equipped to act as a high end escort, and even then I believe we should have more ASW optimised platforms. It also is too large / expensive to do a role that an OPV is doing.
tomuk wrote: 21 Nov 2022, 21:07T31 is a brand new modestly armed ship designed with availability and maintainability in mind it will not take 2 T31s to replace 1 old well worn B1 River.
I’d be delighted if the T31 hits the 70%+ availability of the River Class, but it won’t.
Comment-2 (of 2): On how the T31 will/shall be used, my thought. (continues)

1: I am always surprised that many here think there are only high-end-escorts and patrol vessel. No. If you look around the world, there is clearly another layer, so called "2nd-tier escorts". Actually, a "spectrum" of capabilities in ships.

high-end escorts : T45, FREMM/Constellation/T26 ASW frigates etc
2nd-tier escorts : Nansen class, many MEKO200s etc
Patrol ships (high-end): Floreal-class, Spanish BAM, Holland-class, USCG Heritage-class cutter
Patrol ships (low-end): River B1 OPVs, many Vard-7 80/85/90-OPVs, numerous Japan CG long-range cutters
...

2: What is more, tier-1 threat and lower-tier threat is going to take different tactics. Nowadays, the diversity of threat is getting even larger.

In 1990s, the major threat against ship were high-subsonic sea skimmer. There were another layer, Mach-3 class supersonic ASM. Only two layers. The former is to be handled with CIWS and short-range SAM (SeaWolf, Sea Sparrow et c), and the latter by long-range SAM (SM-1 and SM-2, as SeaDarts etc).

Modern maritime anti-ship threat is,
a: hyper-sonic ASM, and ballistic ASM (deadly expensive, but very difficult to neutralize)
b: (legacy) super-sonic ASM (like Vramos) (very expensive, but not easy to neutralize)
c: modern sub-sonic ASMs (NSM etc) (relatively cheap, stealthy and agile and soft-kill tolerant, not easy to neutralize)
d: (legacy) sub-sonic ASMs (Exocet, Harpoons, Chinese equivalent etc) (cheap, easy to neutralize)
e: slow suicide UAVs (very cheap, each easy to neutralize, but comes in number)
f: fast boat harassment/swarm (very cheap, each easy to neutralize, but comes in number)

So, there are wider spectrum of threats which "soldiers on a merchant ship" cannot handle. Advance in technology make this happen, and it will surely continue. Important to note is, items d, e, and f are so cheap that even a small nation or militila can operate them (although in reduced number). So you need numbers of assets to handle these lower-end threats. I understand this fact manifests the need for a ship like T31.

T31 can handle threats e and f much better than T23/T26/T45 can do, thanks to adopting 57 mm main gun and 40 mm guns (by forgetting NGFS). T31 is also not-bad at threat-d (57/40 mm 3P rounds). T31 can handle b and c, partly with its CAMM (if the number is limited). As such, T31 can also contribute to CVSG and LRG escort thanks to its CAMM, as a member of the escort (if threat is large) or even as a sole escort (small).

As far as T31 is cheap to build, cheap to operate, and requires (relatively) less man-power, it has its own rationale to be in RN. I think T31 is as cheap as needed. But its man-power is not so low, and therefore I am sceptical about T32.

My thoughts.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Tbenz »

A good analysis, which arguably places the Type 31 below a second-tier escort (which would typically have more SAM, 8 or more SSM and some ASW capability), but above a high-end patrol ship (which would typically not have SAM). A third-tier escort or very high-end patrol ship!?

The Type 31s in my view represent overall a significant decrease in capability from the GP Type 23s they replace, particularly with regards to ASW and ASuW.

It is very possible that a future government, Labour or Conservative, will not proceed with the Type 32, leaving the RN with 19 escorts as before, albeit with a significant decrease in overall capability due to the Type 31s.

This would leave only 8 of 19 escorts with any real ASW capability as far as I can see - the Type 45s being very limited in this regard. With a small Merlin fleet (stretched by supporting Crowsnest), a small Wildcat fleet (without any capability of locating submarines), a small SSN fleet and a small P-8 fleet, this leaves us very vulnerable to the significant numbers of modern, quiet SSKs deployed by numerous navies around the world.

If we had more first-tier escorts, i.e. Types 45 & 26, some very high end patrol ships, i.e. Type 31, might be a good idea for the flag-waving presence role, but the former is not going to happen.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by SD67 »

IMO we wouldn't be here if the T26 would have stuck to its original brief and been a kind of growth T23, around 5000t with basically the same ASW capability, but cheap enough to mass produce.

However then we wouldn't have the Ozzies and Canadians on board, as they basically want a junior AB.

(Also in a perfect world there would have been a proper competitive tender for the P-8, Boeing's pricing is off the wall.)

So we are where we are. All we can hope for is technology insertions into the lesser platforms via modularised or off board systems. Maybe some lateral thinking is needed. Does all the offensive capability need to sit on the T26? Could you not extend the reach by putting an additional Merlin or two on the accompanying RFA? Or a FireScout on a River B2?

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Caribbean »

Tbenz wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 08:44 this leaves us very vulnerable to the significant numbers of modern, quiet SSKs deployed by numerous navies around the world
Apparently they are only modern, quiet and deadly if used by foreign navies. According to the experts on here, they are completely useless if used by the RN.
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by SW1 »

And how many actual modern ssk’s are being used by countries we consider to be hostile foreign powers.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Tempest414 »

We need to brake this down

Type 31 dose not have a SSGW = No RN escort has a SSGW except a few old harpoon clinging on to one or two ships to give the look of a system

I believe Type 31 will come on line with 24 CAMM given the rise in tension a cross the globe

the lack of a HMS is a little poor but T-31 dose have a anti torpedo system

The FREMM ASW/ GP have a standard load out of 16 x Aster 15 , 8 x SSGW ,

The FDI will have 16 x Aster and 8 x SSGW

The UK needs to get on and buy NSM for Both Type 31 and Type 45. A type 31 with 1 x 57mm , 2 x 40mm , 24 CAMM , 8 x NSM plus a Helicopter with 20 LMM or 4 Sea Venom is going to be a good global patrol frigate

Also as to the question of sea going days the River class spend an average of 230 days at sea type 31 should be looking at 150 to 170 days
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Tbenz »

Agreed - 8 NSM, 24 CAMM, 57mm & 40mm guns and a Wildcat helo would make a good second-tier escort, except for ASW...

AFAIK only three kits are to be purchased for the Type 31 to enable them to be fitted with SSTD and I believe the RN only has a limited number of SSTD systems, certainly not enough for every escort to be fitted.

In terms of ASW capability, Type 31 is frequently slated for its diesel propulsion and lack of damping and HMS.

However, the Danish are converting their Absalom class into ASW frigates with TAS, despite their diesel propulsion and AKAIK lack of damping. The French FTI frigate also has diesel propulsion, yet are being fitted with both HMS & TAS. The US Constellation class are not being fitted with HMS, just TAS, again AFAIK.

Assuming all of the above is correct, is there a case for equipping the Type 31 with TAS and the associated crew and systems to produce a second-tier ASW escort?
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Tempest414 »

Tbenz wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 11:37 Agreed - 8 NSM, 24 CAMM, 57mm & 40mm guns and a Wildcat helo would make a good second-tier escort, except for ASW...

AFAIK only three kits are to be purchased for the Type 31 to enable them to be fitted with SSTD and I believe the RN only has a limited number of SSTD systems, certainly not enough for every escort to be fitted.

In terms of ASW capability, Type 31 is frequently slated for its diesel propulsion and lack of damping and HMS.

However, the Danish are converting their Absalom class into ASW frigates with TAS, despite their diesel propulsion and AKAIK lack of damping. The French FTI frigate also has diesel propulsion, yet are being fitted with both HMS & TAS. The US Constellation class are not being fitted with HMS, just TAS, again AFAIK.

Assuming all of the above is correct, is there a case for equipping the Type 31 with TAS and the associated crew and systems to produce a second-tier ASW escort?
As I have said for some time the way forward is to buy up to 5 containerised TAS systems these would have there own crew and could be fitted to a Type 31 using the container space under the flight deck or on the B2 Rivers on the work/ flight deck. The type 31 will not need a TAS all the time to be a tier 2 ship but by having containerised TAS that can fitted as and when plus be flown anywhere one is needed by A400 or C-17 we could have a flexible system

If I had my way I would fit 16 Mk-41 on type 31 loaded with Tomahawk Blk-V over a TAS

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Caribbean wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 10:12
Tbenz wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 08:44 this leaves us very vulnerable to the significant numbers of modern, quiet SSKs deployed by numerous navies around the world
Apparently they are only modern, quiet and deadly if used by foreign navies. According to the experts on here, they are completely useless if used by the RN.
First of all, except for ASEAN region, number of SSKs operated worldwide is not increasing. Modern SSK is very very expensive. (but still cheaper than SSN).

What is very different from SSK to SSN is its long-range transit capability. SSK threat is there only when you reach the area. SSK cannot maneuver far distance without snorting (even with AIP). Such SSK is not difficult to detect by aircraft's SAR radar and by ships' TASS. And, UK is aiming at operating Submarines in far theater, so the reason why SSK for UK is not a high priority is clear.

Needs for ASW capability must be assessed theater-by-theater (because SSK is rare, not everywhere). For example, Houthi Rebels has no SSK. Somaria, Liberia, Syria, Lebanon, none. Argentina will lose it soon. Iran has some, but in that theater, there are many assets capable at ASW much better than "a T31 with hull sonar", or even "T31 with TASS" (too shallow).

SD67
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by SD67 »

SW1 wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 12:08
Great news and looking forward maybe a high low mix with FCASW as the High end, I'd like to see JSM ordered for P-8 annd F35 as well
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Timmymagic »

NSM is sweeping the market at present.

Serves everyone else right for ignoring AShM for so long and only progressively updating old designs. Norway took a big gamble on NSM and its come off spectacularly.

Spain has also just announced they are ordering it as well....its becoming defacto the main Western AShM, I can only see its sales success continuing..

Bad news for MBDA France as historically Exocet was their big sales success...the rest of their portfolio is looking rather bare at present with systems not getting traction (SAMP/T, Akeron) or increasingly marginalised (Mistral and MICA variants) by competition.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Timmymagic »

Tempest414 wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 10:36 I believe Type 31 will come on line with 24 CAMM given the rise in tension a cross the globe
By the time T-31 and T-26 arrive in service, and the T45 upgrade with Sea Ceptor, there is a very real chance that CAMM-MR will have arrived as well. There's a couple of questions around that that I'm currently not sure of:

- Does the recently announced development of CAMM-MR mean that the previously trailed purchase of CAMM-ER is in abeyance? Or is it complementary to ER? The Poles look like they're going for all 3, albeit from different systems initially.
- Will T31 and T26 have the sensors and systems to support CAMM-MR? Will Artisan cut it? Should we have ordered NS200 rather than NS100 for T31?
- Is there space in the T31 and T26 missile areas for a longer missile like CAMM-MR? (no issue with T45 in that respect). Have we left space for future developments?
- CAMM is quoted as 25km, CAMM-ER 45km....(those figures are on the low side as well...suspect its more like 40km and 70km in reality). CAMM-MR is going to exceed CAMM-ER by a margin. We're probably going to have a 100km+ missile available for all Frigates, a near Sea Dart Mk.2 capability. That changes things somewhat...

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by SW1 »

SD67 wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 12:56
SW1 wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 12:08
Great news and looking forward maybe a high low mix with FCASW as the High end, I'd like to see JSM ordered for P-8 annd F35 as well
I think if we were gonna adopt it across land sea and air I’d get Raytheon uk to manufacture and we could perhaps develop it thru the complex weapons program. It’s looks very capable.

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