Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[donald_of_tokyo]

The solution is simple, get 3 containerized versions of the CAPTAS 4 Compact VDS and rotate them throughout the T31 fleet. Have one in the Gulf and 2 in the UK… then add a simple HMS, which the T31 is FFBNW, 8 or 16xI-SSM, 24 Sea Ceptor and you have a perfectly fine GP frigate, for not very much money, not the oversized OPV they are supposed to be now…and they’re still FFBNW MK41 VLS.

IF you were really serious about it, instead of 16x I-SSM, the RN could have just 8 and add 8 MK41 for land attack with the long range version of FC/ASW.

The price increase of doing the above add-ons would be relatively low, probably no more than £200-250 million for the 5 ships…

[donald_of_tokyo]

No big objection adding a CAPTAS4-CI to T31 will "help" the situation. Rotating the system will be also good (but you cannot rotate it, when the sonar system itself needs maintenance, which is surely needed), and it will only cost "so-so". Also, adding the ATLAS low-frequency active-passive towed array sonar system (LFAPS) system will also be a cheaper option (I understand it is similar to CAPTAS2 in its capability).

My "push" for SEASENSE ARCIMS USVs is based on recent gas pipeline hole issues. NATO needs number there, but it is relatively near the NATO nations.

UK can add 5 (or 6) LFAPS in number with small amount of money, and small amount of additional crew. As the system is small and focused, its maintenance load is small, which means BOTH smaller man-power and larger availability. As such, a fleet of 5 SEASENSE USV system (with LFAPS), will provide more sonars on station than a fleet of 5 T31 with LFAPS system.

On the other hand, T31 with its long endurance can go anywhere in the world and follow CVTF/LRG, while ACRIMS USV cannot. But, in the North Sea, around Norway, and/or Baltic sea. In other words, like current cases, it will work.

The same applies to SeaGuadian UAV-ASW. Not good for expenditure operations, but good for defense operations.

[wargame_insomniac]

Donald-San,
I totally agree with your post, the protection of vital undersea infrastructure around the UK and Europe should be the purview of unmanned assets (air, sea and sub-sea) with long endurance/loitering capabilities.

Maybe I wasn’t clear in my post, but I’m my mind, the T31 GP I just proposed would not have that role. One would probably be in the Far East to complement the two Rivers. The plan right now is to replace the latter with two T31s, but the Rivers have shown to be incredibly suited to visit smaller harbors and other confined waters, so I’d keep them there and just add a T31 GP.

Another two need to go to the Gulf, because you’ll need to maintain Kipion and provide escort to LRG(S).

The remaining two would probably stay in the UK for other duties, eg., training, FRES, LRG(N), CASD protection, etc. This would release the T45s and T26s for the high-end work, e.g., High North ASW, CSG, NATO, etc.

[Repulse]

The biggest threat from Russia is its sub surface force, which is on par with the west,, and the counter to which are P8s, SSNs and yes super quiet frigates designed specifically to hunt submarines. In the future I’m sure XLUUVs etc will have a role. A noisy frigate, not designed for ASW, using modularised ASW kit part-time would not be anywhere near the top of my list.

[wargame_insomniac]

The idea that the UK is going to produce a class of Frigates without a hull mounted sonar or a tail is now completely absurd.

Considering the capabilities of the T23’s that they are replacing the entire T31 weapon systems and sensor fit-out needs a complete rethink asap.

A modest batch of River Batch 3 would cover the global flag waving and maritime security role but the T31 class now need to replace the T23s like for like both in terms of capability and in numbers.

AS mentioned before, before Monmouth was retired the RN had 8 T23 ASW Frigates and 5 T23 GP Frigates. The current plan is to have 8 T26 ASW Frigates and 5 T31 GP Frigates. ie LIKE for LIKE!!

So you should nt compare the T31 with T23 ASW but with T23 GP Frigates. Now bear in mind I also agree that both the T26 and T31 need uparming (primarily more Mk41 VLS and also ASM Canisters) to reflect the much higher tensions and possible conflicts with either Russia and / or China.

So I do think that T31 need better sonar and armanents, as all RN Frigates should be able to contrubute to ASW operations even if not as fully optimised for that as the T26.

[JohnM]

The biggest threat from Russia is its sub surface force, which is on par with the west,, and the counter to which are P8s, SSNs and yes super quiet frigates designed specifically to hunt submarines. In the future I’m sure XLUUVs etc will have a role. A noisy frigate, not designed for ASW, using modularised ASW kit part-time would not be anywhere near the top of my list.

Agreed, but not all surface vessels will have to be devoted to sub-hunting or carrier escort… there are a lot of second line tasks, e.g., convoy escort, choke point control, for which a GP frigate is perfectly adequate and that releases the high-end ASW and AAW assets for the high-intensity tasks… a RN surface force of 14 high-end escorts (T45 and T26) and 5 properly armed GP ones (T31), offers a really good mix and balance, I feel.

[wargame_insomniac]

The biggest threat from Russia is its sub surface force, which is on par with the west,, and the counter to which are P8s, SSNs and yes super quiet frigates designed specifically to hunt submarines. In the future I’m sure XLUUVs etc will have a role. A noisy frigate, not designed for ASW, using modularised ASW kit part-time would not be anywhere near the top of my list.

Again I think you are confusing the roles of the T31 with the existing T23 ASW / GP. You are totally correct that we we need the T26, P8's and Astute SSN's to face the Russian submarines in North Atlantic, GIUK Gap and High North. And you are laso correct we need more USV and XLUUV;s to protect closer to home with undersea cables being vital.

But the only reason that T23 GP Frigates would have been assigned to those misions is the chronic unavailability of RN's escorts generally, with T23's going through long LIFEX and T45's needing PIP in case it got a bit warm. As the T23 ASW finish their LIFEX over the next year or so, and then longer term as the T26 start getting operational, then the remaining T23 GP frigates initially, and longer term the T31;s, are freed up to undertake missions further east, with Med, Persian Gulf and Gulf of Oman vital for UK shipping lanes, and then also reinforcing the Batch 2 OPV's in the Indo Pacific.

[wargame_insomniac]

The biggest threat from Russia is its sub surface force, which is on par with the west,, and the counter to which are P8s, SSNs and yes super quiet frigates designed specifically to hunt submarines. In the future I’m sure XLUUVs etc will have a role. A noisy frigate, not designed for ASW, using modularised ASW kit part-time would not be anywhere near the top of my list.

Agreed, but not all surface vessels will have to be devoted to sub-hunting or carrier escort… there are a lot of second line tasks, e.g., convoy escort, choke point control, for which a GP frigate is perfectly adequate and that releases the high-end ASW and AAW assets for the high-intensity tasks… a RN surface force of 14 high-end escorts (T45 and T26) and 5 properly armed GP ones (T31), offers a really good mix and balance, I feel.

100% agree. We need the T31's to enable the T26 and T45 concentrate on warfighting missions which they were designed for.

The T31's wont always be working alone - often they will be UK's participation with allied forces in keeping the global shipping lanes clear and anti-piracy, vital for UK's interests as a maritime nation.

[SW1]

The biggest threat from Russia is its sub surface force, which is on par with the west,, and the counter to which are P8s, SSNs and yes super quiet frigates designed specifically to hunt submarines. In the future I’m sure XLUUVs etc will have a role. A noisy frigate, not designed for ASW, using modularised ASW kit part-time would not be anywhere near the top of my list.

Is it? I thought Russian submarines are noisy are we over egging there submarines like there mythical surface to air systems?

I thought part of the investigation around the pipe line incidents was possibly commercial shipping passing in the few days previously which certainly suggests rovs and mines may have played a part.

[Repulse]

… for which a GP frigate is perfectly adequate..

Is it though, if you are escorting a HVU in the North Atlantic, Gulf or wherever and have nothing downstairs, and limited capability upstairs, I would say now it’s not adequate. An escort is there to protect the asset it is sailing with, a”GP” T23 (capable of ASW operations) is not the same as a T31.

I’m a firm believer of high end globally deployable forces combined with low end global presence - the T31 is neither.

[Repulse]

Is it? I thought Russian submarines are noisy are we over egging there submarines like their mythical surface to air systems?

Nothing is certain until tried in anger, but I would very cautious about complacency, the Yasen-M in particular is one to watch.

[JohnM]

… for which a GP frigate is perfectly adequate..

Is it though, if you are escorting a HVU in the North Atlantic, Gulf or wherever and have nothing downstairs, and limited capability upstairs, I would say now it’s not adequate. An escort is there to protect the asset it is sailing with, a”GP” T23 (capable of ASW operations) is not the same as a T31.

I’m a firm believer of high end globally deployable forces combined with low end global presence - the T31 is neither.

1. We’ll agree to disagree on the need for a entirely high end force…

2. Tell me again exactly how a T31 (which, btw, meets all the NATO noise levels required for a surface escort), equipped with a VDS and a HMS is totally defenseless against submarines? If that’s the case, then so is 90% of the NATO escort fleet, basically everything minus T26 and FREMM…

[dmereifield]

The biggest threat from Russia is its sub surface force, which is on par with the west,, and the counter to which are P8s, SSNs and yes super quiet frigates designed specifically to hunt submarines. In the future I’m sure XLUUVs etc will have a role. A noisy frigate, not designed for ASW, using modularised ASW kit part-time would not be anywhere near the top of my list.

Is it really on a par with the West, or is it just a case of it not being exposed as being sub par, yet, as opposed to their surface fleet, land and air assets which have been

[Poiuytrewq]

The idea that the UK is going to produce a class of Frigates without a hull mounted sonar or a tail is now completely absurd.

Why?

I would argue that GP Frigates without sonar aren’t very general purpose.

The T45s and the T26s are high cost specialists whereas the T31 are low cost all rounders. Without a hull mounted sonar they are not credible general purpose Frigates. That is why no other 1st tier navy is introducing a class of Frigates without a sonar capability. It’s bonkers.

Containerised Captas 1,2 or 4 would be great as would additional Sea Guardians, XLUUVs and various other unmanned sonar systems but first and foremost the T31s need to be credible GP Frigates.

The T31 concept was conceived when the global security picture was much more stable and predictable than it is today. What was acceptable then is not acceptable now. I simply do not believe that HMG, MoD and/or RN would commission such a class in today’s world.

Given this deterioration in the short, medium and long term global security picture it is time for the T31s weapons and sensor fit-out to be completely reassessed.

[Poiuytrewq]

Agreed! So, it’s a good thing the AH140 design won the T31 competition… big hull with lots of room to be up sensored and up armed…

[Repulse]

1. We’ll agree to disagree on the need for a entirely high end force…

2. Tell me again exactly how a T31 (which, btw, meets all the NATO noise levels required for a surface escort), equipped with a VDS and a HMS is totally defenseless against submarines? If that’s the case, then so is 90% of the NATO escort fleet, basically everything minus T26 and FREMM…

1. Never said an “entirely high end force” I said hi-lo no middle that is overkill for constabulary roles and requiring a baby sitter in a high risk one.

2. Just because it passes NATO minimal standards and is good enough for a tier 2 navy doesn’t mean it’s the right fit for a RN role, especially when the RN has stripped down its war fighting capabilities.

Btw - I haven’t a clue where you got 90% from. NATO has @240 destroyers and frigates and 1/3 of those are Arleigh Burke-class, so I think it’s closer to 50%.

[JohnM]

1. We’ll agree to disagree on the need for a entirely high end force…

2. Tell me again exactly how a T31 (which, btw, meets all the NATO noise levels required for a surface escort), equipped with a VDS and a HMS is totally defenseless against submarines? If that’s the case, then so is 90% of the NATO escort fleet, basically everything minus T26 and FREMM…

1. Never said an “entirely high end force” I said hi-lo no middle that is overkill for constabulary roles and requiring a baby sitter in a high risk one.

2. Just because it passes NATO minimal standards and is good enough for a tier 2 navy doesn’t mean it’s the right fit for a RN role, especially when the RN has stripped down its war fighting capabilities.

Btw - I haven’t a clue where you got 90% from. NATO has @240 destroyers and frigates and 1/3 of those are Arleigh Burke-class, so I think it’s closer to 50%.

The ABs are NOT specialist ASW assets, so I’ll keep my ratio…

[wargame_insomniac]

1. We’ll agree to disagree on the need for a entirely high end force…

2. Tell me again exactly how a T31 (which, btw, meets all the NATO noise levels required for a surface escort), equipped with a VDS and a HMS is totally defenseless against submarines? If that’s the case, then so is 90% of the NATO escort fleet, basically everything minus T26 and FREMM…

1. Never said an “entirely high end force” I said hi-lo no middle that is overkill for constabulary roles and requiring a baby sitter in a high risk one.

2. Just because it passes NATO minimal standards and is good enough for a tier 2 navy doesn’t mean it’s the right fit for a RN role, especially when the RN has stripped down its war fighting capabilities.

Btw - I haven’t a clue where you got 90% from. NATO has @240 destroyers and frigates and 1/3 of those are Arleigh Burke-class, so I think it’s closer to 50%.

The ABs are NOT specialist ASW assets, so I’ll keep my ratio…

True the ABs are not ASW specialist, certainly not in the way that the T26's will be hopefully world leading ASW specialists. But the ABs are arguably the best balanced ships in the world between ASW, AAW, anti ship and land attack, albeit at the cost of high price tag, which is why USN is now belatedly adding Frigates to their fleet.

(Arguably with their Aegis system, radars and volume of Mk 41 VLS, you could argue that ABs are if anything specialised towards AAW and BMD (especially the Flight III's) but they do this without losing much on those other capabilities).

[JohnM]

And while all that is true, my point still stands… the only absolutely 1st tier ASW surface assets in NATO are the FREMMs and, soon, the T26. Nothing else can stand a chance one-on-one against a modern sub… a lone AB against a top tier, well driven sub is fish fodder… Repulse’s point is that you need an all-1st tier ASW navy and my reply was meant to demonstrate that is absolutely not true, because there’s more to life than hunting subs… and I stick by it…

[Scimitar54]

And while all that is true, my point still stands… the only absolutely 1st tier ASW surface assets in NATO are the FREMMs and, soon, the T26. Nothing else can stand a chance one-on-one against a modern sub… a lone AB against a top tier, well driven sub is fish fodder… Repulse’s point is that you need an all-1st tier ASW navy and my reply was meant to demonstrate that is absolutely not true, because there’s more to life than hunting subs… and I stick by it…

I never said the RN needed “an all-1st tier ASW navy”.

I said that the RN needed to focus on a hi-lo mix, and that the biggest threat from Russia was below the surface. You then tried to group the T31 in with other “GP” platforms, which is absurd - I’d be very happy if the T31 was a AB.

Also, for those trying to say that a T23 ASW is radically different from a T23 GP then I suggest taking away the TAS from the former and then list out the differences.

[Tempest414]

The way forward is to buy 6 containerised sonars which can be used by both the type 31 and RB2's and maybe the RB1's

[Caribbean]

Just because it passes NATO minimal standards and is good enough for a tier 2 navy doesn’t mean it’s the right fit for a RN role, especially when the RN has stripped down its war fighting capabilities.

As I understand it, the T23 operates in "sprint and drift" mode, when conducting passive sonar operations. The IH can be operated in exactly the same way. The difference is likely to be the speed that they can sustain in the "drift" phase while remaining quiet. The IH hull is designed for a "quiet mode" capability (I have read that that means up to 9 knots, but I have no idea whether that was fact or conjecture)

I suspect that the T26 is designed to operate quietly at much higher speeds than that.

[Poiuytrewq]

The way forward is to buy 6 containerised sonars which can be used by both the type 31 and RB2's and maybe the RB1's

Great solution.

The T31 should be built so that such PODS slot in from day 1 without further adaption.

Regardless, I would argue that a hull mounted sonar is still a prerequisite for a GP Frigate.

Considering the deteriorating security environment could ASW PODS now be procured as a UOR?

[Repulse]

To make the point in a different way, if the RN (in a lead role within NATO) wanted to ensure dominance of the North Atlantic (inc Artic) above and below the surface what fleet composition is required?

[SW1]

With off board systems and multi statics the age of the specialist manned ship is coming to an end. It will no longer need to be the ultra quiet passive receiver, it will more likely be the active pinger with off board systems being the silent receiver.