Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[inch]

The only way that 3% of GDP would be spent on defense is if the UK government got left behind and Germany ,France spent 3% on defense

[Scimitar54]

The numbers of Officers & Ratings necessary to operate an expanded escort fleet is a prerequisite of course, but it need not be double what is required today.

New build Escorts are less demanding in terms of numbers and the removal of any “double crewing” on these vessels would free up some of the people required.

If we need more escorts then HMG should facilitate whatever is needed.

[SD67]

The Defence Select Committee are saying that the Escort Fleet needs to DOUBLE.

Easier said than done….

However,

- The T26 drumbeat could be accelerated substantially if BAE could be authorised to build at the most efficient pace.

That would require scrapping of the two yard policy closure of Govan and investment in a Frigate Factory at Scotstoun or elsewhere.

- The T31 programme could swiftly transition across to building credible GP frigates with an acceptable suite of offensive/defensive weapons and sensors.

Agree, and once Babcock have proven themselves with the first batch the plan must surely be to add complexity / weapons fit to the second

- A third programme could be initiated to produce a class of long range OPV’s with immediate effect based on the RB2’s. Add a hanger, 57mm and space amidships for ISO’s and/or POD’s (like BAE’s Avenger concept) and RN would have a low cost and versatile patrol vessel for low risk environments.

I'd keep that one in the back pocket to plug gaps in workload at any of the yards, if for example there's a T26/T83 gap or a T31/32

- As a temporary measure until more suitable escorts are commissioned the RB2’s could be upgraded with Artisan, 57mm, 2x 30mm plus UAV and Captas 1 or 2. CAMM contained in PODs could also be added if required.

Is Artisan really needed for these systems?

The big problem with significantly increasing the size of the escort fleet remains manpower but recruitment could be supercharged very rapidly if the political will was there.

The only thing stopping any of this happening is the Treasury and an unwillingness to spend 3% of UK GDP on defence.

Oh I think the army's ongoing 10 billion pound abortion of vehicle strategy a carries a fair bit of the blame as well

[Repulse]

That would require scrapping of the two yard policy closure of Govan and investment in a Frigate Factory at Scotstoun or elsewhere.

Amen to that, and BAE in partnership with HMG should be doing that now. The purists were trying to play the competition card to force BAE into investing without commitment - it has clearly failed, why would BAE do this with the bias there is and without a secure pipeline? We should just commit to a warship a year a be done with it!

I'd keep that one in the back pocket to plug gaps in workload at any of the yards, if for example there's a T26/T83 gap or a T31/32

Appledore would have been (and could be again) perfect as a third shipyard. I'd argue with future OPV and Survey Ship orders there is at least a 10 ship fleet that needs replacing every 15-20 years, maybe even more. Also, Appledore was good at winning export orders, Babcock just couldn't manage the peaks and troughs. Again a commitment for the RN for a drumbeat should convince H&W to start it back up again - having a proven track record IMO will help with bids for larger ships in Belfast.

[wargame_insomniac]

That would require scrapping of the two yard policy closure of Govan and investment in a Frigate Factory at Scotstoun or elsewhere.

Amen to that, and BAE in partnership with HMG should be doing that now. The purists were trying to play the competition card to force BAE into investing without commitment - it has clearly failed, why would BAE do this with the bias there is and without a secure pipeline? We should just commit to a warship a year a be done with it!

I'd keep that one in the back pocket to plug gaps in workload at any of the yards, if for example there's a T26/T83 gap or a T31/32

Appledore would have been (and could be again) perfect as a third shipyard. I'd argue with future OPV and Survey Ship orders there is at least a 10 ship fleet that needs replacing every 15-20 years, maybe even more. Also, Appledore was good at winning export orders, Babcock just couldn't manage the peaks and troughs. Again a commitment for the RN for a drumbeat should convince H&W to start it back up again - having a proven track record IMO will help with bids for larger ships in Belfast.

And from what I have read Appledore would be perfect for smaller jobs such as OPV and survey ships, and maybe assisting with smaller sections of T31/T32, especially if UK win export orders?

Presumably H&W Belfast would be suited to building FSS and maybe MRSS?

[Scimitar54]

wargame_insomniac

Perhaps you did not know that Appledore also constructed 2 x blocks (1 for each) for the QEC Aircraft Carriers.

[wargame_insomniac]

wargame_insomniac

Perhaps you did not know that Appledore also constructed 2 x blocks (1 for each) for the QEC Aircraft Carriers.

Yes I was aware - was that their last work?

I would have no problem if H&W Appledore were also used in constructing blocks for any of the upcoming RN / RFA ships if that would get them built quicker / cheaper, but I didnt know what the existing contracrs specified. Whereas I know that QEC were built by Aircraft Carrier Alliance, with work shared across all UK shipyards.

[Lord Jim]

Maybe we need an "Escorts Alliance", and a "RFA Alliance"?

[Scimitar54]

HMS Alliance? Sounds like an Eighth SSN !

[wargame_insomniac]

[/quote]

Maybe we need an "Escorts Alliance", and a "RFA Alliance"?

HMS Alliance? Sounds like an Eighth SSN !

Well looking forwards to 2028 we are trying to intoduce T26 & T31 frigate and FSS, soon after followed by T32 and MRSS. And in the meantime we have a lot of red for restricted / lack of availability on that transaitions chart published as part of that recent House of Commons Defence Committee report.

If spreading ANY of those projects over the 4 yards (BAE / Babcock / Belfast / Apollodore) eans that we get the ships quicker and /or cheaper, then great. It's jsut a numbers gane as we are trying to juggle high-end high intensity warfighting capapility (carriers/T45's/refitted T23 ASW/Astute/CASD) with low intensity presence and patrolling from remaining T23 GP and OPV's.

After Monmouth's decommissioning, we have 4*T23 GP, one of which is in LIFEX. We have 8*T23 ASW, three of which are in LIFEX. We have 6*T45's, one of which is about to resume active service after undergoing Power Improvement Programme, meaning that the other five still have to undergo PIP by 2028. So even without counting the impact of ships that are in short term refit /maintenance, we are dangerously low on escorts over the next five-six years.

So ANYTHING we can do to reduce that escort shortfall is a good thing.....

[Tempest414]

Well if the money was found then we could up the speed of Type 26 and add 1 more we could add 1 more type 31 and then build a class of 6 Type 32 and if we really wanted we could build a class of 6 x 117 meter Leanders at CL in Liverpool keep them simple and more a heavy corvette with a 57mm , 2 x 30mm , 1 x Phalanx , 12 CAMM for a fleet of

6 x type 45 ( to be replaced by 8 Type 83 )
9 x Type 26
6 x type 31 ( up armed with 24 Mk-41 to allow 32 CAMM + 16 other weapons )
6 x Type 32 ( a up dated Absalon class )
6 x type 34 ( the 117m Leander Class )
5 x B2's

[Scimitar54]

Still 5 x “Escorts” short. The B2 Rivers are NOT “Escorts”, even though some of our politicians who do not wish to pay for the proper vessels would have us believe. We make a terrible mistake if we give any indication that we have fallen for this lack of veracity.

The B2 are only being used in their current role because “they are all that we have got and can spare”.

[Tempest414]

As we wont get even this then that list would be a dream come true

[Poiuytrewq]

6 x type 45 ( to be replaced by 8 Type 83 )
9 x Type 26
6 x type 31 ( up armed with 24 Mk-41 to allow 32 CAMM + 16 other weapons )
6 x Type 32 ( a up dated Absalon class )
6 x type 34 ( the 117m Leander Class )
5 x B2's

If HMG were to accept the Defence Select Committee recommendations this would be the fastest, most plausible way to proceed.

Extra manpower would clearly need to be trained and/or retained plus RN would need to get the army’s Wildcats to fill all those additional hangers

[Dobbo]

There is a holistic element to all of this in terms of what roles the navy is expected to deliver and what is the fleet composition needed to deliver that.

At the top end, there is carrier strike. That requires eye wateringly expensive bits of kit, and despite everything the RN has it is still short of an ABM capability, it’s arising requires significant work, it is short of available SSN and AAW escort numbers and there is the issue of FSS.

At the mid point, the littoral groups perhaps don’t need much more work doing to them (save for when we get to renewal of the amphibious fleet). Their support is driven primarily by the surface escorts fleet - which we know takes time to get back to where it should be.

At the low end it is clear that as much of the local policing type tasks are to be undertaken by OPV, RFA or T31 units to economise. I’ve got no issue with this.

Pervasive amongst this is the ability to work with allies as part of a task group and flag waving.

Delivery of each of these is going to take more time and greater resources than are currently available. The frustrating thing for me is that it illustrates the need to develop a plan and stick to it. Good examples of the pitfalls of not sticking to this are T26/31 (the result of much flip flopping between C1, C2, C3 where the outcome is very much akin to C1, C2 & C3 but with time and money wasted) and Astute (where the skills gap created by reducing numbers caused horrendous delay). Neither of these can be allowed to be repeated if the ambition is to be delivered.

[NickC]

"The Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) Navy received an additional 110 indigenously made combat speedboats on December 11 during a ceremony in Bandar Abbas "
Iran doubles Revolutionary Guard’s budget for 2022 to US $22 billions, serious money, suggest they may have the budget to build effective boghammars.

Claimed speed of their latest 110 boghammars 75 to 90 knots, looks like armed with 2 light anti-ship missiles and rockets, no mention of type of missile fitted, indigenously developed? (in response to the assassination of the Iranian IRGC commander by Trump, Iran in Jan 2020 attacked US Iraqi airfield with 12 or so SRBMs which were surprisingly accurate showcasing their home grown technical ability) or maybe 8 km variant of the Russian Kornet anti-tank licensed produced in Iran.

The headline from the recent HoC Defence Committee that the RN ships are well defended porcupines, is that true, begs the question would any RN destroyer or frigate have the capability to survive eg if ambushed by swarm attack by a dozen or so Iranian boghammars and is that a valid scenario to plan for or is it totally unrealistic as would assume RN ships operating in Gulf on convoy duty escorting tankers would have continuous air cover, though expect the Iranian boghammars would operate in range of their land based SAMs.

PS IRGC have established new navy base at mouth of the Gulf, Sirik opposite the UAR

From <https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... abilities/>

[donald_of_tokyo]

"The Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) Navy received an additional 110 indigenously made combat speedboats on December 11 during a ceremony in Bandar Abbas "
Iran doubles Revolutionary Guard’s budget for 2022 to US $22 billions, serious money, suggest they may have the budget to build effective boghammars...

US Navy has widely adopted ALaMO rounds on their 57mm guns. On paper, it will sink these fast boats in one-hit one-kill basis, at (more than) several km distance. I guess Iranian was FORCED to increase their boat number?

[Tempest414]

we will need more unmanned armed ribs say 25 deployed in the Gulf operating from a land base also the 30mm is starting to look a bit light on range and stopping power maybe we will need to move over to the 40mm on all escorts

[NickC]

"The Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) Navy received an additional 110 indigenously made combat speedboats on December 11 during a ceremony in Bandar Abbas "
Iran doubles Revolutionary Guard’s budget for 2022 to US $22 billions, serious money, suggest they may have the budget to build effective boghammars...

US Navy has widely adopted ALaMO rounds on their 57mm guns. On paper, it will sink these fast boats in one-hit one-kill basis, at (more than) several km distance. I guess Iranian was FORCED to increase their boat number?

Until the five RN T31s which will fit the Bofors 57mm and could use the ALaMO round if funded may be operational by 2028'ish otherwise would have thought RN so called 'porcupine' ships would have limited defence against the IRGC boghammars (to date the only USN ships to fit the Bofors 57mm that fire the USN ALaMO round are the two classes of LCS and USN has never had the confidence to deploy a single ship to the Gulf even though USS Freedom the first of its class was commissioned back in Nov 2008 and was recently decommissioned Sep 2021).

[Tempest414]

the best defence against a mass swam attack will be MPA's it would take time to form up a mass attack and I would make it clear as soon as it left there own waters it would be attacked

clearly we do need to move to 40mm across the board

[Repulse]

Let’s get those 57mms on the OPVs and rollout the LMMs onto UAVs and 30mm mounts. Add in the Wildcats brimming with Martlets then I think the RN has a good counter to this.

[Dahedd]

Just a thought. A number of folk commenting on the need for more air defence & BMD. What if the T32 was to be straight up UK spec Iver Huitfeldt AD frigate? As opposed to the watered down GP T31.

[Repulse]

Just a thought. A number of folk commenting on the need for more air defence & BMD. What if the T32 was to be straight up UK spec Iver Huitfeldt AD frigate? As opposed to the watered down GP T31.

You get my vote on upgrading the T32, but would want it to be more of a ASW ship than AAW/BMD as the T45s are capable ships and we really would want to free up the T26s first IMO.

[wargame_insomniac]

Just a thought. A number of folk commenting on the need for more air defence & BMD. What if the T32 was to be straight up UK spec Iver Huitfeldt AD frigate? As opposed to the watered down GP T31.

You get my vote on upgrading the T32, but would want it to be more of a ASW ship than AAW/BMD as the T45s are capable ships and we really would want to free up the T26s first IMO.

All RN ships bigger than OPV should be able to defend themselves vs AAW / ASW and ASuW. So as a minimum either ship should have at least 24 cells SAM (ideally 48 cells, currently CAMM), ASW topedoes and one 4.5"-5.0" gun. Plus 30mm secondary guns, LMM and CIWS for close in layered defense. With appropriate radar, sonar and fire control systems. Plus a Wildcat with mix of LMM / Sea Venom / Sting Ray Torpedoes depending on mission.

Neither the T31 or T32 are likely to be as optimised for ASW as T26, due it's acoustically quiet hull and sonars. Presumably to upgrade T31 or T32 beyond the minimum level I suggested above, they could be equipped with better sonar (both bow mounted and towed array) and Mk41 VLS to include ASROC?

[Tempest414]

it would be good to know the out come of fitting TAS to the Absalon's as they have the same hull form as the type 31 we also know type 31 can make 24 knot on 2 engines so should be able to make between 12 & 18 knots on reduced rev's. for me I would rather fit a 40mm gun than have LMM on a 30mm mount as LMM has a max range of 8 km's and the stopping power of a 40mm round where the 40mm Mk-4 has a max range 12km's and 100+ rounds

So a type 31 with its 57mm , 2 x 40mm carrying 320 round and Wildcat with 20 LMM should make a real mess of a swam attack of say 40+ boats