Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.
SD67
Senior Member
Posts: 1036
Joined: 23 Jul 2019, 09:49
United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by SD67 »

Personal .02 euro worth - the elephant in the room is Successor being taken into the core defence budget.

T26 for sure is a bit overspecced - why the Chinook capable flight deck - but it’s marginal in the greater scheme. A 10 billion program vs 35 . The vast majority of the cash is going beneath the surface. Which is why IMHO AUKUS is huge. The long term payoff of amortising all that R&D over say 20 SSNs rather than 8. That’s what is going to create the headroom, wouldn’t be surprised if the SSN fleet goes back to 10-11 once all the efficiencies kick in
These users liked the author SD67 for the post (total 4):
Repulseserge750PoiuytrewqJohnM

Repulse
Donator
Posts: 4583
Joined: 05 May 2015, 22:46
United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Repulse »

Tempest414 wrote: 03 Jun 2023, 14:48 Type 31 will end up costing around 320 to 340 million
It will be more, especially if we are comparing like for like with the T26, but that will come out in time
Tempest414 wrote: 03 Jun 2023, 14:48 Type 31 is not trying to be a frigate it is a frigate and if it comes as above it will be a very good global Patrol frigate
A hull does not make a frigate, it’s what it can do which comes down to systems and weapons. It will be a frigate if all that has been discussed recently happens, but it will be more that a global patrol frigate, it will be a ASuW escort which is fine. We do not need global Patrol frigates.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

Online
User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5552
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Tempest414 »

Repulse wrote: 03 Jun 2023, 15:28
Tempest414 wrote: 03 Jun 2023, 14:48 Type 31 will end up costing around 320 to 340 million
It will be more, especially if we are comparing like for like with the T26, but that will come out in time
Tempest414 wrote: 03 Jun 2023, 14:48 Type 31 is not trying to be a frigate it is a frigate and if it comes as above it will be a very good global Patrol frigate
A hull does not make a frigate, it’s what it can do which comes down to systems and weapons. It will be a frigate if all that has been discussed recently happens, but it will be more that a global patrol frigate, it will be a ASuW escort which is fine. We do not need global Patrol frigates.
At this time type 31 is 268 million per ship or 400 million per ship full program costs the Batch 2 T-26's are 840 million per ship or 1.125 billion per ship full program costs it is my view that both will go up in cost leaving type 31 at 340 million and type 26 at 860 to 880 million per ship type 31's program cost will end up being 2.3 billion and type 26 program cost will be 9.6 billion

As for the global patrol ship we could call it a Global Combat Ship
These users liked the author Tempest414 for the post:
new guy

Repulse
Donator
Posts: 4583
Joined: 05 May 2015, 22:46
United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Repulse »

Let’s see shall we.

As for calling it a Global Combat Ship, we’ve got that already called the T26. What’s more it can fight above and below the waterline. Regardless, we need CSG escorts we do not need singleton GCSs who will be quickly overcome by any half decent near peer nation.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5657
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by SW1 »

Repulse wrote: 03 Jun 2023, 14:29
SW1 wrote: 03 Jun 2023, 11:02 No it was the RN claiming type 26 would be a £250m pound frigate originally no one else. The government/treasury allocated a budget of around £10 billion for the frigate replacement program the RN could have order 100 rivers for that budget or 9 type 26s or anything in between. What happened was the RN we want 13 type 26 and the government went ok what’s that cost and they went 13 billion. Government went your budget it 10 billion your not getting any more so either cut something or come up with a different plan.
If it was really £250mn why was £10bn allocated? I agree that the budget was what the RN had to live within, but there are three fundamental things that drove things to the conclusion:

- the bias against BAE was clear, they were blamed for inflating costs, rather than realising that what these were caused primarily by the RN and government with their requirements and famine and feast approach. With all the bells and whistles that are being added to the T31 the cost will be far north of £250mn.

- the RN could have got 10 or more T26s if the government had committed upfront. Whilst I would argue this would have been a better outcome, politics and political top-trump attitudes made reducing the escort fleet size impossible.

- the Government wanted to use the RN as an economic stimulant for exports; creating a second warship shipbuilder was never about the requirement.
SW1 wrote: 03 Jun 2023, 11:02 Not it doesn’t there have been and continue to be lots of conflicts with people who aren’t Russia and China (high end conflict) and issues below conflict with Russia or China. The RN surface fleet can be equipped for such conflict. It’s certainly not about colonial sloops slapping wrist, infact the less we have to do with worrying about conflict on land beyond our select group allied countries and dependant territories the better.
Agree on the land conflict comment. Completely disagree on the rest, there is a new global game going on. There will for sure be limited local ground flash points, but most conflicts, especially if there is a maritime impact, will be backed by one of the major powers. The proliferation of sophisticated but cheap capabilities makes even a fully kitted warship vulnerable, let alone a light frigate pretending it can do it cheaper.
SW1 wrote: 03 Jun 2023, 11:02 Our tier 1 warfighting big stick is and should be the nuclear submarine fleet not the surface fleet.
SSNs are about sea control, as soon as they launch something they become a target. Also, WW2 should again the limitations of subs when you aren’t able to control the skys. CEPP is critical.
The RN could have got a lot of things it didn’t and not only that it has procured ships without weapons. Perhaps the original budget contained more in stockpiles and maintenance support I do not know.

I don’t think the global game has changed that much to be honest seems to just to be the same old we may have chosen to ignore Chinese expansion for economic expediency but it’s always been there.

Cheap capabilities have proliferated yes but not at the scale that would be prevalent in very high end conflict.

Yea ssns are sea control (all we really should be interested in) and holding targets of national importance at risk with stand-off missiles when they launch they disappear they Russian and Chinese have nothing to counter them. We will agree to disagree on the criticality of cepp for the U.K..

wargame_insomniac
Senior Member
Posts: 1135
Joined: 20 Nov 2021, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Repulse wrote: 03 Jun 2023, 18:39 Let’s see shall we.

As for calling it a Global Combat Ship, we’ve got that already called the T26. What’s more it can fight above and below the waterline. Regardless, we need CSG escorts we do not need singleton GCSs who will be quickly overcome by any half decent near peer nation.
If I have understood your viewpoint correctly, you would have preferred a couple more T26, giving RN 16 escorts in total (6*T45 & 10*T26) once all T26 have replaced the remaining T23??

If so, I would be interested to know how you would have intended to cover all RN escort missions apart from TAPS, CSG escort and ASW patrol in GIUK Gap. Do you see RN's surface escorts having ANY role(s) outside the T26's ideal intended missions?

Repulse
Donator
Posts: 4583
Joined: 05 May 2015, 22:46
United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Repulse »

wargame_insomniac wrote: 03 Jun 2023, 21:32 If so, I would be interested to know how you would have intended to cover all RN escort missions apart from TAPS, CSG escort and ASW patrol in GIUK Gap. Do you see RN's surface escorts having ANY role(s) outside the T26's ideal intended missions?
In short no. The only one that is questionable is Kipion, but actually I think that would still be possible with 10 T26s. 2 (with ability up to surge 4) for CSG, 1 for TAPS and 1 for Kipion, 4-6 in refit and training.

The rest can be done with MHPCs.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

Online
User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5552
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Tempest414 »

Repulse wrote: 03 Jun 2023, 18:39 Let’s see shall we.

As for calling it a Global Combat Ship, we’ve got that already called the T26. What’s more it can fight above and below the waterline. Regardless, we need CSG escorts we do not need singleton GCSs who will be quickly overcome by any half decent near peer nation.
We don't have to wait and see it all there to be seen type 31 has a 2 billion pound program cost and it is public record that the build contact is 250 per ship with 18 million GFE = 268 million the question is how much is left in the 2 billion program for MK-41's and NSM. we can a figure of about 200 million on buying and fitting 5 sets of 32 MK-41

As for type 26 it is going to be a world class ASW frigate very much held to the CSG and TAP's

And yes we do very much need Global Patrol Frigates OPV / MHPC's are very good but can only do so much
These users liked the author Tempest414 for the post:
new guy

Poiuytrewq
Senior Member
Posts: 3958
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Poiuytrewq »

new guy wrote: 02 Jun 2023, 10:34 https://t.co/wioWsoClWR
Combining the LPDs with the Holland OPVs?

The LPX sounds very much like a HiCap OPV, the Vard 7 313 as discussed previously would be a perfect fit. https://vardmarine.com/wp-content/uploa ... -7-313.pdf

Or could Damen finally get their first Crossover in the water?

Perhaps a 140m Enforcer will be the ultimate destination and if built in numbers they would be great additions to any fleet. https://www.damen.com/vessels/defence-a ... -enforcers
These users liked the author Poiuytrewq for the post:
wargame_insomniac

Repulse
Donator
Posts: 4583
Joined: 05 May 2015, 22:46
United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Repulse »

Tempest414 wrote: 04 Jun 2023, 07:39
Repulse wrote: 03 Jun 2023, 18:39 Let’s see shall we.

As for calling it a Global Combat Ship, we’ve got that already called the T26. What’s more it can fight above and below the waterline. Regardless, we need CSG escorts we do not need singleton GCSs who will be quickly overcome by any half decent near peer nation.
We don't have to wait and see it all there to be seen type 31 has a 2 billion pound program cost and it is public record that the build contact is 250 per ship with 18 million GFE = 268 million the question is how much is left in the 2 billion program for MK-41's and NSM. we can a figure of about 200 million on buying and fitting 5 sets of 32 MK-41

As for type 26 it is going to be a world class ASW frigate very much held to the CSG and TAP's

And yes we do very much need Global Patrol Frigates OPV / MHPC's are very good but can only do so much
We will need to wait and see as the drip drip of increasing costs when buys that were left off the T31 are added - only then can we assess value for money.

There is no priority need for a Global Patrol Frigate - we need a combination of soft and hard power. Soft power to counter the grey war for which OPV/LSV style vessels are the right subtle solution, combined with regular demonstration of power through regular SSN/CSG/ESF global deployments.

If there is spare money go for more SSNs and even another CSG.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

Repulse
Donator
Posts: 4583
Joined: 05 May 2015, 22:46
United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Repulse »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 04 Jun 2023, 08:08
new guy wrote: 02 Jun 2023, 10:34 https://t.co/wioWsoClWR
Combining the LPDs with the Holland OPVs?

The LPX sounds very much like a HiCap OPV, the Vard 7 313 as discussed previously would be a perfect fit. https://vardmarine.com/wp-content/uploa ... -7-313.pdf

Or could Damen finally get their first Crossover in the water?

Perhaps a 140m Enforcer will be the ultimate destination and if built in numbers they would be great additions to any fleet. https://www.damen.com/vessels/defence-a ... -enforcers
The LPX is interesting and should be watched closely by the RN. I’ve reused the MHPC label but would see lower level forward amphibious capabilities being part of role also.

In terms of the Enforcer the “13000“ model is much more interesting IMO. There have already been rumblings that the RN may take its next LPD off the shelf, and this would be an interesting model to sail as part of the Expeditionary Strike Groups (a name I prefer to CSG). I’m sure some people will shake their heads and grumble about the lack of a hangar, but it’s not needed when you are sailing with a mobile airfield.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 5545
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Japan

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Tempest414 wrote: 04 Jun 2023, 07:39 We don't have to wait and see it all there to be seen type 31 has a 2 billion pound program cost and it is public record that the build contact is 250 per ship with 18 million GFE = 268 million the question is how much is left in the 2 billion program for MK-41's and NSM. we can a figure of about 200 million on buying and fitting 5 sets of 32 MK-41
I simply do not think so. NAO report says £2Bn for T31 everything, years before Mk.41 discussion nor NSM. Not related.

For Mk.41 and NSM, surely additional money is needed.

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5657
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by SW1 »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 04 Jun 2023, 10:33
Tempest414 wrote: 04 Jun 2023, 07:39 We don't have to wait and see it all there to be seen type 31 has a 2 billion pound program cost and it is public record that the build contact is 250 per ship with 18 million GFE = 268 million the question is how much is left in the 2 billion program for MK-41's and NSM. we can a figure of about 200 million on buying and fitting 5 sets of 32 MK-41
I simply do not think so. NAO report says £2Bn for T31 everything, years before Mk.41 discussion nor NSM. Not related.

For Mk.41 and NSM, surely additional money is needed.
We do not know what was included in the 2b figure as it only broken dwn as far as 1.25b to Babcock for the supply of 5 frigates as currently equipped with the extra .75b for commissioning, risk management and government furnished equipment.
These users liked the author SW1 for the post:
Tempest414

Repulse
Donator
Posts: 4583
Joined: 05 May 2015, 22:46
United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Repulse »

Exactly, we will have to wait for the final numbers
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 5545
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Japan

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

SW1 wrote: 04 Jun 2023, 10:46
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 04 Jun 2023, 10:33
Tempest414 wrote: 04 Jun 2023, 07:39 We don't have to wait and see it all there to be seen type 31 has a 2 billion pound program cost and it is public record that the build contact is 250 per ship with 18 million GFE = 268 million the question is how much is left in the 2 billion program for MK-41's and NSM. we can a figure of about 200 million on buying and fitting 5 sets of 32 MK-41
I simply do not think so. NAO report says £2Bn for T31 everything, years before Mk.41 discussion nor NSM. Not related.

For Mk.41 and NSM, surely additional money is needed.
We do not know what was included in the 2b figure as it only broken dwn as far as 1.25b to Babcock for the supply of 5 frigates as currently equipped with the extra .75b for commissioning, risk management and government furnished equipment.
We know Mk.41 nor NSM were included within. If it was, it must be announced then. It's big big win for RN, why not announce it? I'm very surprised some of you dream of such things. Look at the history of RN program? Have we ever been surprised with such a thing?

Sorry, never. I've never had such experience. Simply sorry. I will only believe it only after I see it. And, I think this is very reasonable assumption looking back the past. Sorry. Pessimistic?? No, far from it. Just realistic. (If in pessimism, I doubt £2Bn can deliver the 5 T31 as originally planned).

new guy
Senior Member
Posts: 1184
Joined: 18 Apr 2023, 01:53
United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by new guy »

SW1 wrote: 04 Jun 2023, 10:46
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 04 Jun 2023, 10:33
Tempest414 wrote: 04 Jun 2023, 07:39 We don't have to wait and see it all there to be seen type 31 has a 2 billion pound program cost and it is public record that the build contact is 250 per ship with 18 million GFE = 268 million the question is how much is left in the 2 billion program for MK-41's and NSM. we can a figure of about 200 million on buying and fitting 5 sets of 32 MK-41
I simply do not think so. NAO report says £2Bn for T31 everything, years before Mk.41 discussion nor NSM. Not related.

For Mk.41 and NSM, surely additional money is needed.
We do not know what was included in the 2b figure as it only broken dwn as far as 1.25b to Babcock for the supply of 5 frigates as currently equipped with the extra .75b for commissioning, risk management and government furnished equipment.
NSM costs will be for integration/instillation, and while not cheap the actual NSM bits have already been ordered for the fleet. MK41 will be around £50m per hull hopefully as a maximum and will probably be a bit under. As for the 2bn figure it included many stuff such as ship contract, GFE, others (like commissioning and stuff like the £70m T31 system test centre) It would also include an X amount for extra, but the cost break down is not fully known and we will only be able to piece it together by looking at additional contracts, cost overruns, guesswork, and see if the total programme budget increases.

new guy
Senior Member
Posts: 1184
Joined: 18 Apr 2023, 01:53
United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by new guy »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 04 Jun 2023, 08:08
new guy wrote: 02 Jun 2023, 10:34 https://t.co/wioWsoClWR
Combining the LPDs with the Holland OPVs?

The LPX sounds very much like a HiCap OPV, the Vard 7 313 as discussed previously would be a perfect fit. https://vardmarine.com/wp-content/uploa ... -7-313.pdf

Or could Damen finally get their first Crossover in the water?

Perhaps a 140m Enforcer will be the ultimate destination and if built in numbers they would be great additions to any fleet. https://www.damen.com/vessels/defence-a ... -enforcers
I was actually referring to the TRIFIC image.

Poiuytrewq
Senior Member
Posts: 3958
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Poiuytrewq »

new guy wrote: 04 Jun 2023, 12:58 I was actually referring to the TRIFIC image.
I know you were but adding containers containing new-tech to commercial Damen workboats is hardly good news. It’s just another sign of underfunding and low manpower levels. The UK is not alone in these struggles.

The interesting part was the LPX announcement IMO.

new guy
Senior Member
Posts: 1184
Joined: 18 Apr 2023, 01:53
United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by new guy »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 04 Jun 2023, 13:39
new guy wrote: 04 Jun 2023, 12:58 I was actually referring to the TRIFIC image.
I know you were but adding containers containing new-tech to commercial Damen workboats is hardly good news. It’s just another sign of underfunding and low manpower levels. The UK is not alone in these struggles.

The interesting part was the LPX announcement IMO.
That is a LSV

Poiuytrewq
Senior Member
Posts: 3958
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Poiuytrewq »

new guy wrote: 04 Jun 2023, 13:47 That is a LSV
What is a LSV?

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5657
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by SW1 »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 04 Jun 2023, 12:47
SW1 wrote: 04 Jun 2023, 10:46
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 04 Jun 2023, 10:33
Tempest414 wrote: 04 Jun 2023, 07:39 We don't have to wait and see it all there to be seen type 31 has a 2 billion pound program cost and it is public record that the build contact is 250 per ship with 18 million GFE = 268 million the question is how much is left in the 2 billion program for MK-41's and NSM. we can a figure of about 200 million on buying and fitting 5 sets of 32 MK-41
I simply do not think so. NAO report says £2Bn for T31 everything, years before Mk.41 discussion nor NSM. Not related.

For Mk.41 and NSM, surely additional money is needed.
We do not know what was included in the 2b figure as it only broken dwn as far as 1.25b to Babcock for the supply of 5 frigates as currently equipped with the extra .75b for commissioning, risk management and government furnished equipment.
We know Mk.41 nor NSM were included within. If it was, it must be announced then. It's big big win for RN, why not announce it? I'm very surprised some of you dream of such things. Look at the history of RN program? Have we ever been surprised with such a thing?

Sorry, never. I've never had such experience. Simply sorry. I will only believe it only after I see it. And, I think this is very reasonable assumption looking back the past. Sorry. Pessimistic?? No, far from it. Just realistic. (If in pessimism, I doubt £2Bn can deliver the 5 T31 as originally planned).
We do not know what was included in the government furnished equipment portion of the budget. It was likely an amount was set aside within the budget to buy a system or integrate a weapon that had not yet to be decided upon it did not have to spelled out at contract signature.

The only portion of the contract made public has been the contract with Babcock for the design and manufacture of 5 frigates to the current spec for a price of 1.25b pounds. Which remains the case.

The decision to buy nsm for any of the surface fleet has only been taken in the past few months.

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 5545
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Japan

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

SW1 wrote: 04 Jun 2023, 14:27We do not know what was included in the government furnished equipment portion of the budget. It was likely an amount was set aside within the budget to buy a system or integrate a weapon that had not yet to be decided upon it did not have to spelled out at contract signature.
We knot it did NOT include Mk41 nor NSM. If you mean it must have included "some spare money", I really doubt it. Do you remember the original T31 program budget? It was £1.25Bn total including GFE, first-year support, and even FX risk. Just recall the RFI. All bidders failed to meet the budget, and new bid was issued, and suddenly, it became a £2Bn T31 program. NAO report clearly stated it was 65% of cost overrun, already.

I cannot believe RN successfully installed "budget for future Mk.41 addition" in this situation. If I were HMT, I will surely say "take it off and keep the budget significantly less than £2Bn. T31 is already significantly exceeding the program budget of £1.25Bn". All guess, I agree, but this "guess" is much more realistic than "guessing that Mk.41 is included"? Am I saying anything pessimistic? Just being realistic, honestly?
The decision to buy nsm for any of the surface fleet has only been taken in the past few months.
Yes, with un-known amount of budget newly assigned (of course using the £250M originally allocated for interim SSM program, so may be more than £300M?). And I think it does not include any amount from the £2Bn assigned for T31.
These users liked the author donald_of_tokyo for the post:
Ron5

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5657
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by SW1 »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 04 Jun 2023, 14:51
SW1 wrote: 04 Jun 2023, 14:27We do not know what was included in the government furnished equipment portion of the budget. It was likely an amount was set aside within the budget to buy a system or integrate a weapon that had not yet to be decided upon it did not have to spelled out at contract signature.
We knot it did NOT include Mk41 nor NSM. If you mean it must have included "some spare money", I really doubt it. Do you remember the original T31 program budget? It was £1.25Bn total including GFE, first-year support, and even FX risk. Just recall the RFI. All bidders failed to meet the budget, and new bid was issued, and suddenly, it became a £2Bn T31 program. NAO report clearly stated it was 65% of cost overrun, already.

I cannot believe RN successfully installed "budget for future Mk.41 addition" in this situation. If I were HMT, I will surely say "take it off and keep the budget significantly less than £2Bn. T31 is already significantly exceeding the program budget of £1.25Bn". All guess, I agree, but this "guess" is much more realistic than "guessing that Mk.41 is included"? Am I saying anything pessimistic? Just being realistic, honestly?
The decision to buy nsm for any of the surface fleet has only been taken in the past few months.
Yes, with un-known amount of budget newly assigned (of course using the £250M originally allocated for interim SSM program, so may be more than £300M?). And I think it does not include any amount from the £2Bn assigned for T31.
From less than 3 weeks ago in parliamentary committee.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/type-31 ... 0-million/

“In response, James Cartlidge, the Minister of State at the Ministry of Defence, confirmed that the overall price of the contract had indeed risen. He stated, “…the Ministry of Defence has agreed with Babcock an increase in the overall price of the contract of some £40 million as a result of the impact of COVID and supply chain volatility.”

The Minister of State went on to explain that this £40 million increase amounts to only approximately 3% of the production cost of the ships.

Despite the rise in costs, he assured that the average production cost remains at £250 million per ship.

The Type 31 manufacturing contract was initially signed in November 2019, and the cost increase has been attributed to the challenges posed by the COVID-19 pandemic and its effects on global supply chains.”

How do u or any of us know what was in the government furnished equipment part of the contract. There may have a been a budget line of integration of future anti ship missile or similar as an example

Repulse
Donator
Posts: 4583
Joined: 05 May 2015, 22:46
United Kingdom

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Repulse »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 04 Jun 2023, 13:54
new guy wrote: 04 Jun 2023, 13:47 That is a LSV
What is a LSV?
Littoral Support Vessel, like our new Ocean Support Vessel, and part of the MCM mothership package
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 5545
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Japan

Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

SW1 wrote: 04 Jun 2023, 15:06How do u or any of us know what was in the government furnished equipment part of the contract. There may have a been a budget line of integration of future anti ship missile or similar as an example
Why didn't HMT cut it right at the beginning?

RN came with £2Bn proposal for a program with £1.25Bn assigned. How can RN "avoid" the strong and simple "questions" from HMT, "why do you need this money assigned now, even though you are already 65% over budget ? (are you serious?)".

And, if RN succeeded to include its budgets, why not RN stated so already?

Sorry, very sorry, but I cannot simply follow your idea. Anything can happen, yes, RN might be "hiding" its great success to add Mk.41 from the begining but somehow kept it secret for years. Really? From where such an super-optimistic thinking comes, after looking at the RN/MOD budgetary issue for nearly a decade?
These users liked the author donald_of_tokyo for the post:
Ron5

Post Reply