Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.
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Tempest414
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Tempest414 »

Lord Jim wrote:He maybe Leonardo's Test Pilot, but his descriptions of the AW149 shows it to be a very impressive platform, probably ticking all the boxes we have and then some. We just need to give them all to the AAC and leave the RAF with the Chinooks.
As said before for me there should be a buy of 70 AW-149 50 for the AAC and 20 for the RAF with one Regiment and the RAF based at Benson and the other Regiment based at Wallop

Anthony58
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Anthony58 »

With real term cuts in the defence budget, how are you going to pay for it, the same applies to your other posts?

Ron5
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Ron5 »

SW1 wrote:Indeed the army will be like the navy after the carrier debacle on the naughty step of special fiscal measures for 10 years.
Carrier debacle???

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Ron5 »

The replacement program has gone very quiet. Isn't it about time they announced that the requirements are ready and the competition can start?

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Ron5 wrote:about time they announced that the requirements are ready and the competition can start?
Have to pick the winner first - and then reverse engineer the rqrmnts :D
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Ron5
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Ron5 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Ron5 wrote:about time they announced that the requirements are ready and the competition can start?
Have to pick the winner first - and then reverse engineer the rqrmnts :D
Nice one!

Of course they've had little trouble going single source. I'm assuming a competition, no procurement process has been announce AFAIK.

SW1
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

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RichardIC
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by RichardIC »

UK could buy up to 44 helicopters under £1 billion NMH acquisition

https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopter ... 62.article

UK defence officials are prepared to spend up to £1 billion ($1.3 billion) on as many as 44 aircraft under the country’s nascent New Medium Helicopter (NMH) programme, according to newly published tender documents.

Posted by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) on 11 November, the contract opportunity notice is the first step in the effort to replace the Royal Air Force’s 23-strong fleet of Puma HC2 helicopters, plus three other types operated by the British Army.

Airbus Helicopters is likely to propose military version of H175

Potential suppliers have been invited to a “market interest day” on 25 November to “further inform the NMH requirement and procurement strategy”, says the document.

“As part of market industry day and to better understand the market, the [MoD] intends to issue requests for information with invited suppliers on key elements of the NMH programme and for industry to respond to in writing,” it says.

According to the draft scope of the requirement, between 36 and 44 helicopters could be acquired, alongside simulators, training and support services; the estimated total value of the contract is £1 billion.

The MoD hopes to publish the contract by 1 July 2022, it adds.

Aside from the Pumas, types to be replaced include Airbus Helicopters AS365 Dauphins operated by UK special forces, plus the Bell 212s and 412s flown by the army.

Contenders for the NMH contract are likely to be the Airbus Helicopters H175M, Leonardo Helicopters AW149 and Sikorsky UH-60/S-70i Black Hawk.

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by J. Tattersall »

RichardIC wrote:Contenders for the NMH contract are likely to be the Airbus Helicopters H175M, Leonardo Helicopters AW149 and Sikorsky UH-60/S-70i Black Hawk.
Interesting that flight global doesn't mention NH90 which is roughly UH-60 size.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

May be it is more down to Airbus than the magazine (having made the choice for their offer)?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Jensy
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Jensy »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:May be it is more down to Airbus than the magazine (having made the choice for their offer)?
Yep. From past Flight Global in may:
Airbus Helicopters, meanwhile, has indicated that it could offer the H175 or H225M for the NMH contest, depending on the exact requirement, or even the NH Industries NH90
https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopter ... 03.article

They seem willing to offer anything we want, from their range, but the suggestion is that only the H175m is going to be an option for UK build. Have seen previous suggestions that there are already too many NH-90 assembly lines. Zero appetite for another.

Numbers sound more promising than I expected. All the more reason to keep this programme low risk.

Ron5
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

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Surely NH90 is too big and too expensive?

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Ron5 »

RichardIC wrote:UK could buy up to 44 helicopters under £1 billion NMH acquisition

https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopter ... 62.article

UK defence officials are prepared to spend up to £1 billion ($1.3 billion) on as many as 44 aircraft under the country’s nascent New Medium Helicopter (NMH) programme, according to newly published tender documents.

Posted by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) on 11 November, the contract opportunity notice is the first step in the effort to replace the Royal Air Force’s 23-strong fleet of Puma HC2 helicopters, plus three other types operated by the British Army.

Airbus Helicopters is likely to propose military version of H175

Potential suppliers have been invited to a “market interest day” on 25 November to “further inform the NMH requirement and procurement strategy”, says the document.

“As part of market industry day and to better understand the market, the [MoD] intends to issue requests for information with invited suppliers on key elements of the NMH programme and for industry to respond to in writing,” it says.

According to the draft scope of the requirement, between 36 and 44 helicopters could be acquired, alongside simulators, training and support services; the estimated total value of the contract is £1 billion.

The MoD hopes to publish the contract by 1 July 2022, it adds.

Aside from the Pumas, types to be replaced include Airbus Helicopters AS365 Dauphins operated by UK special forces, plus the Bell 212s and 412s flown by the army.

Contenders for the NMH contract are likely to be the Airbus Helicopters H175M, Leonardo Helicopters AW149 and Sikorsky UH-60/S-70i Black Hawk.
So sloooooow, really need to put some more giddy into their giddy up.

bobp
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by bobp »

More here on the contract, they want deliveries to start in 2023....

https://www.contractsfinder.service.gov ... 3ac03cc640

Ron5
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Ron5 »

bobp wrote:More here on the contract, they want deliveries to start in 2023....

https://www.contractsfinder.service.gov ... 3ac03cc640
Dat's more like it :thumbup:

dmereifield
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by dmereifield »

Ron5 wrote:
bobp wrote:More here on the contract, they want deliveries to start in 2023....

https://www.contractsfinder.service.gov ... 3ac03cc640
Dat's more like it :thumbup:
Not if it's 31/12/23

bobp
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by bobp »

I wonder whether this story will have relevance in any decision as the UK signed up to it.

https://www.defensenews.com/smr/nato-pr ... ndustries/

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Lots of 'on the one hand, and on the other' but:
"Airbus is pushing strongly for a European-built system, an industry source told Defense News. Leonardo has also advocated for that option, but also indicated it wants to participate in the U.S. Army’s Future Vertical Lift program, Jaworowski noted. FVL is the service’s major overhaul of its rotorcraft fleet and includes the FLRAA effort along with four other aircraft designs of varying sizes."
- Leonardo reaching out more, across the Pond, as for the prgrm paticipation/ meeting the rqrmnts cannot be overlooked

Except 8-) if you believe in 'Blackhawk forever'
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

bobp
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by bobp »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Except if you believe in 'Blackhawk forever'
Getting long in the tooth. But a proven design.

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RichardIC
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by RichardIC »

bobp wrote:More here on the contract, they want deliveries to start in 2023....
The contract starts in 2023.

But they know what they want. Couldn't even be bothered to get the documentation proofed.

bobp
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by bobp »

RichardIC wrote:The contract starts in 2023.
Sorry you are correct October 2023 is contract start date.

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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by bobp »

This is what the government requirement requirement is so far...

1.2. The draft scope for NMH procurement includes:

1.2.1. Between 36 and 44 aircraft.
1.2.2. Design Integration services.
1.2.3. Simulators: 2 x cockpit Flight Simulation Training Devices (FSTD) and 1 x cabin FSTD.
1.2.4. Industry supplied Qualified Helicopter Instructor (QHI) training, Aircrew training and Maintainer training.
1.2.5. Courseware material for enduring aircrew and maintainer training.
1.2.6. An initial In-Service Support Package to include: Initial Provisioning Spares, Deployed Support Packages (DSPs), Ground Support Equipment and Specialist Tooling, Technical Publications and Aircrew Publications, Logistics (Spares) Management, Depth Maintenance, Forward Maintenance and Design Organisation (DO) technical supp

Missing is expected performance criteria such as range, payload etc etc so it is actually pretty vague at this point.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

bobp wrote:expected performance criteria such as range, payload etc etc so it is actually pretty vague at this point.
I think it is just a reflection of 'them' this time being serious about MOTS... rather than just quoting the intention and then going into extensive modifications
- I bet the budget is already confirmed, above are the quantities, and if more than one alternative provides a fit, there will be the luxury of 'heuristics' ie. taking the subjectively best
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

bobp
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by bobp »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:I think it is just a reflection of 'them' this time being serious about MOTS... rather than just quoting the intention and then going into extensive modifications
- I bet the budget is already confirmed, above are the quantities, and if more than one alternative provides a fit, there will be the luxury of 'heuristics' ie. taking the subjectively best
That is highly likely.

Little J
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Re: Puma Helicopter (RAF)

Post by Little J »

Ron5 wrote:Surely NH90 is too big and too expensive?
I wouldn't say it was too big, but it is way, way too expensive.

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