Puma Helicopter (RAF)

[Little J]

That sounds super conservative to my inexpert ears. How many combat platforms are not going to be made out of composites in say 20 years time? Honest question. I read somewhere AH64E is going to be getting a composite tail boom. How many times have bits been shot off a Puma and it actually has been patched up in the field? Is this an Afghan-specific thing or a genuine all round requirement?

Here's something I found re composite repair
file:///C:/Users/simon/Downloads/MP-AVT-266-05.pdf

The issue of composite construction came sharply into focus in Afghanistan, when shot up Blackhawks and Chinooks were patched up and rapidly sent back into the fight. Merlin on the other hand was grounded requiring specialist repairs.

With regards to Puma replacement, then we need a robust, tested and proven platform, i.e the Blackhawk.

The Blackhawk is about to be replaced with an aircraft with composite's... Or maybe we should be getting the Wessex back in service?

[SD67]

Well I would never underestimate the RAF's devotion to the prosperity of the US aviation industry so I'm guessing some Polish built Blackhawks with a "test and certification facility" in Wales creating oooh at least 100 jobs

[mrclark303]

That sounds super conservative to my inexpert ears. How many combat platforms are not going to be made out of composites in say 20 years time? Honest question. I read somewhere AH64E is going to be getting a composite tail boom. How many times have bits been shot off a Puma and it actually has been patched up in the field? Is this an Afghan-specific thing or a genuine all round requirement?

Here's something I found re composite repair
file:///C:/Users/simon/Downloads/MP-AVT-266-05.pdf

The issue of composite construction came sharply into focus in Afghanistan, when shot up Blackhawks and Chinooks were patched up and rapidly sent back into the fight. Merlin on the other hand was grounded requiring specialist repairs.

With regards to Puma replacement, then we need a robust, tested and proven platform, i.e the Blackhawk.

The Blackhawk is about to be replaced with an aircraft with composite's... Or maybe we should be getting the Wessex back in service?

The Blackhawk will be replaced, well, yes and no.

The replacement is 'years' away, probably 2030 before the first is fielded and the M version of the Blackhawk, will be in service for at least 20 more years before it's finally stood down.

[mrclark303]

That sounds super conservative to my inexpert ears. How many combat platforms are not going to be made out of composites in say 20 years time? Honest question. I read somewhere AH64E is going to be getting a composite tail boom. How many times have bits been shot off a Puma and it actually has been patched up in the field? Is this an Afghan-specific thing or a genuine all round requirement?

Here's something I found re composite repair
file:///C:/Users/simon/Downloads/MP-AVT-266-05.pdf

The issue of composite construction came sharply into focus in Afghanistan, when shot up Blackhawks and Chinooks were patched up and rapidly sent back into the fight. Merlin on the other hand was grounded requiring specialist repairs.

With regards to Puma replacement, then we need a robust, tested and proven platform, i.e the Blackhawk.

Where was the damage on Merlin that kept it grounded?

All the ground fire that Merlin took required specialist inspection and repair, Chinook and Blackhawk could have skin patches applied and back into the fight, as long as no systems were damaged.

Medivac Blackhawks were literally patched and back in the fight inside hours of getting shot up on occasion!

Something impossible on a modern, overly complex composite helicopter.

Manufacturers seem to forget that their products might just have to land right in the middle of a firefight, in a really hot LZ and do it over and over again.....

Blackhawk, keep it simple stupid!

[SW1]

That sounds super conservative to my inexpert ears. How many combat platforms are not going to be made out of composites in say 20 years time? Honest question. I read somewhere AH64E is going to be getting a composite tail boom. How many times have bits been shot off a Puma and it actually has been patched up in the field? Is this an Afghan-specific thing or a genuine all round requirement?

Here's something I found re composite repair
file:///C:/Users/simon/Downloads/MP-AVT-266-05.pdf

The issue of composite construction came sharply into focus in Afghanistan, when shot up Blackhawks and Chinooks were patched up and rapidly sent back into the fight. Merlin on the other hand was grounded requiring specialist repairs.

With regards to Puma replacement, then we need a robust, tested and proven platform, i.e the Blackhawk.

Where was the damage on Merlin that kept it grounded?

All the ground fire that Merlin took required specialist inspection and repair, Chinook and Blackhawk could have skin patches applied and back into the fight, as long as no systems were damaged.

Medivac Blackhawks were literally patched and back in the fight inside hours of getting shot up on occasion!

Something impossible on a modern, overly complex composite helicopter.

Manufacturers seem to forget that their products might just have to land right in the middle of a firefight, in a really hot LZ and do it over and over again.....

Blackhawk, keep it simple stupid!

So we’ve gone from grounded to needing an inspection. I guarantee you the other helicopters would have had an inspection and repair applied too.

Composite structure is not “overly complex” and can be patched with metallics if required.

Merlin is a complex helicopter but that is not the result of composites.

Manufactures or the engineers that design them are well aware of where there helicopters will be used.

[mrclark303]

That sounds super conservative to my inexpert ears. How many combat platforms are not going to be made out of composites in say 20 years time? Honest question. I read somewhere AH64E is going to be getting a composite tail boom. How many times have bits been shot off a Puma and it actually has been patched up in the field? Is this an Afghan-specific thing or a genuine all round requirement?

Here's something I found re composite repair
file:///C:/Users/simon/Downloads/MP-AVT-266-05.pdf

The issue of composite construction came sharply into focus in Afghanistan, when shot up Blackhawks and Chinooks were patched up and rapidly sent back into the fight. Merlin on the other hand was grounded requiring specialist repairs.

With regards to Puma replacement, then we need a robust, tested and proven platform, i.e the Blackhawk.

Where was the damage on Merlin that kept it grounded?

All the ground fire that Merlin took required specialist inspection and repair, Chinook and Blackhawk could have skin patches applied and back into the fight, as long as no systems were damaged.

Medivac Blackhawks were literally patched and back in the fight inside hours of getting shot up on occasion!

Something impossible on a modern, overly complex composite helicopter.

Manufacturers seem to forget that their products might just have to land right in the middle of a firefight, in a really hot LZ and do it over and over again.....

Blackhawk, keep it simple stupid!

So we’ve gone from grounded to needing an inspection. I guarantee you the other helicopters would have had an inspection and repair applied too.

Composite structure is not “overly complex” and can be patched with metallics if required.

Merlin is a complex helicopter but that is not the result of composites.

Manufactures or the engineers that design them are well aware of where there helicopters will be used.

It's a simple fact that Merlin was found to require considerable additional repair and downtime in comparison to Blackhawk and Chinook...

You can guarantee the Lenardo and Airbus offerings will bring three things to the table.

A: far more fragile and needlessly complex than Blackhawk.

B: Double the unit price, at the very least.

C: Be at least 5 years late after UK specific 'modifications'.

The basics, the RAF and Army need a medium support helicopter, UH60M is available right now, utterly reliable, combat proven, affordable and able to do exactly what's needed.

We could order 50 and start receiving UH60's within two years, we could also order the Spec Ops version too to back up our Spec Ops Chinook fleet.

Alas, keeping an Italian owned factory, assembling Italian Helicopters open is more important politically, so the smart money goes on the 'wastelands' factory product.

The unit cost will end up being so high the Mod will be lucky to order 25.

Anyone care to place a wager?

[Ron5]

That sounds super conservative to my inexpert ears. How many combat platforms are not going to be made out of composites in say 20 years time? Honest question. I read somewhere AH64E is going to be getting a composite tail boom. How many times have bits been shot off a Puma and it actually has been patched up in the field? Is this an Afghan-specific thing or a genuine all round requirement?

Here's something I found re composite repair
file:///C:/Users/simon/Downloads/MP-AVT-266-05.pdf

The issue of composite construction came sharply into focus in Afghanistan, when shot up Blackhawks and Chinooks were patched up and rapidly sent back into the fight. Merlin on the other hand was grounded requiring specialist repairs.

With regards to Puma replacement, then we need a robust, tested and proven platform, i.e the Blackhawk.

Where was the damage on Merlin that kept it grounded?

All the ground fire that Merlin took required specialist inspection and repair, Chinook and Blackhawk could have skin patches applied and back into the fight, as long as no systems were damaged.

Medivac Blackhawks were literally patched and back in the fight inside hours of getting shot up on occasion!

Something impossible on a modern, overly complex composite helicopter.

Manufacturers seem to forget that their products might just have to land right in the middle of a firefight, in a really hot LZ and do it over and over again.....

Blackhawk, keep it simple stupid!

So we’ve gone from grounded to needing an inspection. I guarantee you the other helicopters would have had an inspection and repair applied too.

Composite structure is not “overly complex” and can be patched with metallics if required.

Merlin is a complex helicopter but that is not the result of composites.

Manufactures or the engineers that design them are well aware of where there helicopters will be used.

It's a simple fact that Merlin was found to require considerable additional repair and downtime in comparison to Blackhawk and Chinook...

You can guarantee the Lenardo and Airbus offerings will bring three things to the table.

A: far more fragile and needlessly complex than Blackhawk.

B: Double the unit price, at the very least.

C: Be at least 5 years late after UK specific 'modifications'.

The basics, the RAF and Army need a medium support helicopter, UH60M is available right now, utterly reliable, combat proven, affordable and able to do exactly what's needed.

We could order 50 and start receiving UH60's within two years, we could also order the Spec Ops version too to back up our Spec Ops Chinook fleet.

Alas, keeping an Italian owned factory, assembling Italian Helicopters open is more important politically, so the smart money goes on the 'wastelands' factory product.

The unit cost will end up being so high the Mod will be lucky to order 25.

Anyone care to place a wager?

Yes, $1,000 says you are full of shit on your claims except the one where you maintain costs will rise and fewer will be bought. That's a given with inflation and a decreasing defence budget.

[SD67]

That sounds super conservative to my inexpert ears. How many combat platforms are not going to be made out of composites in say 20 years time? Honest question. I read somewhere AH64E is going to be getting a composite tail boom. How many times have bits been shot off a Puma and it actually has been patched up in the field? Is this an Afghan-specific thing or a genuine all round requirement?

Here's something I found re composite repair
file:///C:/Users/simon/Downloads/MP-AVT-266-05.pdf

The issue of composite construction came sharply into focus in Afghanistan, when shot up Blackhawks and Chinooks were patched up and rapidly sent back into the fight. Merlin on the other hand was grounded requiring specialist repairs.

With regards to Puma replacement, then we need a robust, tested and proven platform, i.e the Blackhawk.

Where was the damage on Merlin that kept it grounded?

All the ground fire that Merlin took required specialist inspection and repair, Chinook and Blackhawk could have skin patches applied and back into the fight, as long as no systems were damaged.

Medivac Blackhawks were literally patched and back in the fight inside hours of getting shot up on occasion!

Something impossible on a modern, overly complex composite helicopter.

Manufacturers seem to forget that their products might just have to land right in the middle of a firefight, in a really hot LZ and do it over and over again.....

Blackhawk, keep it simple stupid!

Well the fact is the US army just ordered a composite helicopter - the V-280.

And as for affordability - have you checked the USD/GBP exchange rate recently?

[mrclark303]

That sounds super conservative to my inexpert ears. How many combat platforms are not going to be made out of composites in say 20 years time? Honest question. I read somewhere AH64E is going to be getting a composite tail boom. How many times have bits been shot off a Puma and it actually has been patched up in the field? Is this an Afghan-specific thing or a genuine all round requirement?

Here's something I found re composite repair
file:///C:/Users/simon/Downloads/MP-AVT-266-05.pdf

The issue of composite construction came sharply into focus in Afghanistan, when shot up Blackhawks and Chinooks were patched up and rapidly sent back into the fight. Merlin on the other hand was grounded requiring specialist repairs.

With regards to Puma replacement, then we need a robust, tested and proven platform, i.e the Blackhawk.

Where was the damage on Merlin that kept it grounded?

All the ground fire that Merlin took required specialist inspection and repair, Chinook and Blackhawk could have skin patches applied and back into the fight, as long as no systems were damaged.

Medivac Blackhawks were literally patched and back in the fight inside hours of getting shot up on occasion!

Something impossible on a modern, overly complex composite helicopter.

Manufacturers seem to forget that their products might just have to land right in the middle of a firefight, in a really hot LZ and do it over and over again.....

Blackhawk, keep it simple stupid!

So we’ve gone from grounded to needing an inspection. I guarantee you the other helicopters would have had an inspection and repair applied too.

Composite structure is not “overly complex” and can be patched with metallics if required.

Merlin is a complex helicopter but that is not the result of composites.

Manufactures or the engineers that design them are well aware of where there helicopters will be used.

It's a simple fact that Merlin was found to require considerable additional repair and downtime in comparison to Blackhawk and Chinook...

You can guarantee the Lenardo and Airbus offerings will bring three things to the table.

A: far more fragile and needlessly complex than Blackhawk.

B: Double the unit price, at the very least.

C: Be at least 5 years late after UK specific 'modifications'.

The basics, the RAF and Army need a medium support helicopter, UH60M is available right now, utterly reliable, combat proven, affordable and able to do exactly what's needed.

We could order 50 and start receiving UH60's within two years, we could also order the Spec Ops version too to back up our Spec Ops Chinook fleet.

Alas, keeping an Italian owned factory, assembling Italian Helicopters open is more important politically, so the smart money goes on the 'wastelands' factory product.

The unit cost will end up being so high the Mod will be lucky to order 25.

Anyone care to place a wager?

Yes, $1,000 says you are full of shit on your claims except the one where you maintain costs will rise and fewer will be bought. That's a given with inflation and a decreasing defence budget.

Oh no its the Grinch .

I see you haven't changed your name on here yet for repeatedly making a fool of yourself, like your stirling efforts on the UK Defence journal and Navy Lookout Ron, aka the Grinch.

Admin, help Ron change his name please...

.

[mrclark303]

That sounds super conservative to my inexpert ears. How many combat platforms are not going to be made out of composites in say 20 years time? Honest question. I read somewhere AH64E is going to be getting a composite tail boom. How many times have bits been shot off a Puma and it actually has been patched up in the field? Is this an Afghan-specific thing or a genuine all round requirement?

Here's something I found re composite repair
file:///C:/Users/simon/Downloads/MP-AVT-266-05.pdf

The issue of composite construction came sharply into focus in Afghanistan, when shot up Blackhawks and Chinooks were patched up and rapidly sent back into the fight. Merlin on the other hand was grounded requiring specialist repairs.

With regards to Puma replacement, then we need a robust, tested and proven platform, i.e the Blackhawk.

Where was the damage on Merlin that kept it grounded?

All the ground fire that Merlin took required specialist inspection and repair, Chinook and Blackhawk could have skin patches applied and back into the fight, as long as no systems were damaged.

Medivac Blackhawks were literally patched and back in the fight inside hours of getting shot up on occasion!

Something impossible on a modern, overly complex composite helicopter.

Manufacturers seem to forget that their products might just have to land right in the middle of a firefight, in a really hot LZ and do it over and over again.....

Blackhawk, keep it simple stupid!

Well the fact is the US army just ordered a composite helicopter - the V-280.

And as for affordability - have you checked the USD/GBP exchange rate recently?

Afternoon SD67, they certainly have, but V280 is still years away from frontline service. Let's not forget the US Government V "losers weepers" law suit that's about to kick off, probably adding at least a few more years to the wait.

I fully expect the UK to eventually go the same route, but it's decades away. Re any metric you care to offer, I would guarantee you can buy at least two US Army standard UH60M's (with support) for the price of a single Wasteland build Lenardo offering...

We all know that once UK specific modifications are factored in, the delivery date will slip to the right and the price will go through the roof. It's time honoured MOD procurement tradition!

[mrclark303]

That sounds super conservative to my inexpert ears. How many combat platforms are not going to be made out of composites in say 20 years time? Honest question. I read somewhere AH64E is going to be getting a composite tail boom. How many times have bits been shot off a Puma and it actually has been patched up in the field? Is this an Afghan-specific thing or a genuine all round requirement?

Here's something I found re composite repair
file:///C:/Users/simon/Downloads/MP-AVT-266-05.pdf

The issue of composite construction came sharply into focus in Afghanistan, when shot up Blackhawks and Chinooks were patched up and rapidly sent back into the fight. Merlin on the other hand was grounded requiring specialist repairs.

With regards to Puma replacement, then we need a robust, tested and proven platform, i.e the Blackhawk.

Where was the damage on Merlin that kept it grounded?

All the ground fire that Merlin took required specialist inspection and repair, Chinook and Blackhawk could have skin patches applied and back into the fight, as long as no systems were damaged.

Medivac Blackhawks were literally patched and back in the fight inside hours of getting shot up on occasion!

Something impossible on a modern, overly complex composite helicopter.

Manufacturers seem to forget that their products might just have to land right in the middle of a firefight, in a really hot LZ and do it over and over again.....

Blackhawk, keep it simple stupid!

So we’ve gone from grounded to needing an inspection. I guarantee you the other helicopters would have had an inspection and repair applied too.

Composite structure is not “overly complex” and can be patched with metallics if required.

Merlin is a complex helicopter but that is not the result of composites.

Manufactures or the engineers that design them are well aware of where there helicopters will be used.

It's a simple fact that Merlin was found to require considerable additional repair and downtime in comparison to Blackhawk and Chinook...

You can guarantee the Lenardo and Airbus offerings will bring three things to the table.

A: far more fragile and needlessly complex than Blackhawk.

B: Double the unit price, at the very least.

C: Be at least 5 years late after UK specific 'modifications'.

The basics, the RAF and Army need a medium support helicopter, UH60M is available right now, utterly reliable, combat proven, affordable and able to do exactly what's needed.

We could order 50 and start receiving UH60's within two years, we could also order the Spec Ops version too to back up our Spec Ops Chinook fleet.

Alas, keeping an Italian owned factory, assembling Italian Helicopters open is more important politically, so the smart money goes on the 'wastelands' factory product.

The unit cost will end up being so high the Mod will be lucky to order 25.

Anyone care to place a wager?

Yes, $1,000 says you are full of shit on your claims except the one where you maintain costs will rise and fewer will be bought. That's a given with inflation and a decreasing defence budget.

Oh no its the Grinch .

I see you haven't changed your name on here yet for repeatedly making a fool of yourself, like your stirling efforts on the UK Defence journal and Navy Lookout Ron, aka the Grinch.

Admin, help Ron change his name please...

.

I'll have that $1000 bet with you Mr Grinch, just decide which name you're using and I'll draw up a contract...

[SD67]

Aaaaw c'mon. Ron keeps me going in boring Teams meetings.
I used to have this theory the he's actually Don Rumsfeld - Ron / Don geddit? but I guess 2021 blew that out of the water...

[mrclark303]

Aaaaw c'mon. Ron keeps me going in boring Teams meetings.
I used to have this theory the he's actually Don Rumsfeld - Ron / Don geddit? but I guess 2021 blew that out of the water...

I wouldn't have a problem with it SD67, but trolling has unfortunately ruined many good forums over the years...