EU Combined Military Thread

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Lord Jim
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Re: EU Combined Military thread.

Post by Lord Jim »

Germany will want to keep talking well after any tanks have crossed the border and could in theory hold back the activation of Article 5 in my opinion.

J. Tattersall

Re: EU Combined Military thread.

Post by J. Tattersall »

(yet another) EU RAPID REACTION FORCE http://www.janes.com/defence-news/news- ... ny-hurdles

Missed this when it first came out a few weeks ago. Not sure I've the energy left to comment on EU defence ambitions having lost count of all the 'game-changer' initiatives over the past two decades +. This will be the first re-attempt at a rapid reaction force since Brits left.

Timmymagic
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Re: EU Combined Military thread.

Post by Timmymagic »

As predicted by everyone with a brain cell following the decision of Germany to purchase 5 P-8 Poseidon it sounds like the A319 based joint Maritime Patrol Aircraft programme is on the way out....needed to happen 20 years ago to have been a success...

https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fi ... 88435.html

Lord Jim
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Re: EU Combined Military thread.

Post by Lord Jim »

They also wanted to use the same platform as the basis for an all Europe (NATO) replacement for the E-3s currently in use in the AWACS role. I suppose if Germany is still willing to fully contribute to the Future MRA programme it might continue as long as each nations timeframes still coincide.

J. Tattersall

Re: EU Combined Military thread.

Post by J. Tattersall »

Lord Jim wrote:They also wanted to use the same platform as the basis for an all Europe (NATO) replacement for the E-3s currently in use in the AWACS role. I suppose if Germany is still willing to fully contribute to the Future MRA programme it might continue as long as each nations timeframes still coincide.
I think Germany may well be baulking at the cost to its tax payers of funding various EU / Euro badged defence development projects, many of which might be seen as disproportionately favouring its next door neighbour's industry.

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Tempest414
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Re: EU Combined Military thread.

Post by Tempest414 »

The only way Germany will come back to this program is if it gets the system integration part of build

Lord Jim
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Re: EU Combined Military thread.

Post by Lord Jim »

Agreed, Germany will certainly not want to bank role the survival of the French Military Aerospace Industry.

TheLoneRanger
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Re: EU Combined Military thread.

Post by TheLoneRanger »

J. Tattersall wrote:
Lord Jim wrote:They also wanted to use the same platform as the basis for an all Europe (NATO) replacement for the E-3s currently in use in the AWACS role. I suppose if Germany is still willing to fully contribute to the Future MRA programme it might continue as long as each nations timeframes still coincide.
I think Germany may well be baulking at the cost to its tax payers of funding various EU / Euro badged defence development projects, many of which might be seen as disproportionately favouring its next door neighbour's industry.
Germany may have bitten the bullet and not backed out of the FCAS programme(for now) but i think Germany has balked on the terms of all new projects and will look to buy off the shelf or develop them with the UK. i think the Germans have had enough of French based projects, and the recent visit of Merkel to the UK is a sign that they are looking to build new relations in the area of defence co-operation.

I personally do not approve of any new projects with Germany, given their behaviour towards Northern Ireland and their attempts to break up the UK.

J. Tattersall

Re: EU Combined Military thread.

Post by J. Tattersall »

TheLoneRanger wrote:and the recent visit of Merkel to the UK is a sign that they are looking to build new relations in the area of defence co-operation.
Did Merkel and Johnson discuss security and defence during her visit?

J. Tattersall

Re: EU Combined Military thread.

Post by J. Tattersall »

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... nd-of-2021
Update on the EU's developing Operational HQ. Not clear if all CSDP missions will be controlled from here. If so the figure of 154 staff doesn't seem unreasonable. If however it's there for contingencies only, with other missions farmed out to national OHQs, then a small core of J2/J3/J5 staff officers (of at most a few dozen), augmented as needed, might seem more in order.

J. Tattersall

Re: EU Combined Military thread.

Post by J. Tattersall »

From defenceviewpoints.co.uk back in May https://www.defenceviewpoints.co.uk/art ... erspective

Author concludes thus:
My prediction is that the neighbours will find many reasons to co-operate across a wide range of policy areas. The present post-Brexit turbulence will pass. The COVID 19 pandemic has shaken up the world of commerce to an unexpected degree. Strategic Autonomy should not translate into a protectionist mind-set among the political classes; nor should Global Britain translate into an anti-European attitude. This will require statesmanship. But one lesson learnt through the experience of COVID, is that we are better when we share expertise and technology, rather than try to withhold co-operation. It is the job of the politician to deliver both peace and prosperity to their citizens.

Nick Watts is Deputy Director of the U K Defence Forum and Vice President, Eurodefense-UK. This article was first published in Geopolitica magazine in May 2021
Although one should never say never, I have to say I find it increasingly difficult to foresee the UK making overtures to the EU on defence or security, particularly so when there are other means of cooperating with Europe (e.g. NATO, the Northern Group, the JEF or bilaterally). I also expect that the UK's expulsion from Galileo will have coloured how it views high-tech and defence industrial cooperation with the EU for many years, or even decades, to come.

Gtal
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Re: EU Combined Military thread.

Post by Gtal »

J. Tattersall wrote:From defenceviewpoints.co.uk back in May https://www.defenceviewpoints.co.uk/art ... erspective

Author concludes thus:
My prediction is that the neighbours will find many reasons to co-operate across a wide range of policy areas. The present post-Brexit turbulence will pass. The COVID 19 pandemic has shaken up the world of commerce to an unexpected degree. Strategic Autonomy should not translate into a protectionist mind-set among the political classes; nor should Global Britain translate into an anti-European attitude. This will require statesmanship. But one lesson learnt through the experience of COVID, is that we are better when we share expertise and technology, rather than try to withhold co-operation. It is the job of the politician to deliver both peace and prosperity to their citizens.

Nick Watts is Deputy Director of the U K Defence Forum and Vice President, Eurodefense-UK. This article was first published in Geopolitica magazine in May 2021
Although one should never say never, I have to say I find it increasingly difficult to foresee the UK making overtures to the EU on defence or security, particularly so when there are other means of cooperating with Europe (e.g. NATO, the Northern Group, the JEF or bilaterally). I also expect that the UK's expulsion from Galileo will have coloured how it views high-tech and defence industrial cooperation with the EU for many years, or even decades, to come.

Viewed from the other side of the channel I dare say there is still a lot of (desperate?) wishful thinking going on among foreign policy "experts" from the UK.

As long as the UK fails to fulfill it's treaty obligations, relations will remain frosty. In all areas.
The people that are most pissed at the UKs behavior towards the EU don't sit in Brussels.
They sit in Berlin, Paris, Amsterdam etc. and are fed up to the hilt.

Even without that, where have you been these past 5 years? ALL EU memberstates see the EU as their principle absolute priority an will always turn to their EU partner first.

Of course we're all in Nato, so on an operational level and on non essential projects like medium lift helicopter we will still cooperate. But it won't be close to the same.
And as the EU grows its frameworks and polices and sets about creating a single defence industrial market ever fewer opportunities will present themselves where the UK can get involved without feeling like the junior partner and the UK will get ever more bitter.

Oh yeah and the UKs expulsion from Galileo? :lol: :lol:
The UK left! It didn't get kicked out?!
The EU never said the UK would be unable to access the service either. Just that it could no longer be involved in the management and production of the program.

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Re: EU Combined Military thread.

Post by Repulse »

Gtal wrote:The EU never said the UK would be unable to access the service either. Just that it could no longer be involved in the management and production of the program.
Umm, the point of Galileo was to have secure access to an alternative to GPS with access to military standard data. Even though the UK was a key contributor (£1bn+ to date), the answer was no because of the illogical condition of you are either in or out of the EU, and French and German industrial opportunism through its control of the Union.

Best thing is for the UK to take a step back, and look at where collaboration aligns with the UK regional interests with individual European nations like the JEF. The rest isn’t worth the risk.
Gtal wrote:As long as the UK fails to fulfill it's treaty obligations, relations will remain frosty. In all areas.
The people that are most pissed at the UKs behavior towards the EU don't sit in Brussels.
They sit in Berlin, Paris, Amsterdam etc. and are fed up to the hilt.
That’s probably fair, but the whole feeling that the UK is the sole villain in this is bollocks, the feeling of mistrust and being pissed off is mutual.

The EU manipulated the NI question, with support from elements of the UK political class (some of whom were in power) that couldn’t accept a democratic vote, into forcing the UK into a NI protocol that is not balanced and cannot stand the test of time. The current NI situation is more than just impractical it’s dangerous.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

J. Tattersall

Re: EU Combined Military thread.

Post by J. Tattersall »

Gtal wrote:And as the EU grows its frameworks and polices and sets about creating a single defence industrial market
Gosh, if I'd had a £ for every time I'd heard that in my career then I'd be employing Jeff Bezos as my butler!

J. Tattersall

Re: EU Combined Military thread.

Post by J. Tattersall »

In The Times
A senior figure in the Irish Defence Forces has been appointed to advise the European Union’s military staff on cyberdefences and secure communications.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brig ... -rn0b5sddp

Lord Jim
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Re: EU Combined Military thread.

Post by Lord Jim »

I cannot see an EU military being really viable without the member nations increasing their defence spending to levels they would see as unacceptable. The EU has significant and expensive holes in its military capability, and a lack of mass in others. Most EU members are struggling to meet the NATO minimum of 2%, imagine them trying to find a way that is politically acceptable to spend 3-4%? If the idea has been to form a much more low key force with lower capabilities to handle mission such a Mali, how would member states feel about taking up the slack that was/is the UK's contribution to that operation. Finally for the EU to form a multination command structure for such missions is simply adding layers of red tape that are not needed. Such operations are currently done on a nation basis or under NATO or the UN.

J. Tattersall

Re: EU Combined Military thread.

Post by J. Tattersall »

Lord Jim wrote:If the idea has been to form a much more low key force with lower capabilities to handle mission such a Mali, how would member states feel about taking up the slack that was/is the UK's contribution to that operation. Finally for the EU to form a multinational command structure for such missions is simply adding layers of red tape that are not needed.
I think in reality most EU members would be content to have an office block in Brussels with a sign outside it advertising itself as some sort of EU force on the tacit understanding that, other than for PR purposes, it won't actually be used for much.

Gtal
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Re: EU Combined Military thread.

Post by Gtal »

What has the UK contributed to mali? Some transport assistance I believe? And 300 troops?

Pretty sure there are contributions from a handful of EU countries in Mali. I believe Germany has been there since 2017? At one point something like 1000 men and a suad of attack helicopters?
The UK has provided a staggering 2% of men and equipment to EU missions in the last 15 years or so.
If CSDP was just going to continue as is, meaning low level peacekeeping missions etc. there would be no need to do anything to replace the UKs contribution.



The UK has been very happy to use GPS as a user. So much so that it tried to obstruct Galileo happening because the US would have preferred to have the whole of Europe remain reliant on passiv access to its system.
Only after the rest of the EU had outflanked the attempts to sabotage the plan did the UK suddenly change tack and lobby hard for uk companies to be involved because of course building and operating this sort of capability is in every countries interest, but it requires resources on a continental scale for the investment to be reasonable.
So the UK tried to kill a joint european capability development that was massively in it's own interest just to curry short term favors elsewhere.
Not to forget the UK also led the charge on making it a real "EU project" ie restricting access to and involvement in the program by third countries because the EU were cooperating with China in the project and the US wanted China excluded.

So on Galileo alone the UK demonstrated it was happy to undermine not just the rest of Europe's interests but also it's very own on a whim.
It also championed the exclusion of non-EU countries from Galileo.
Then the UK leaves the EU unilaterally and unprompted and throws a literal tantrum because rules it lobbied and voted for are applied to itself.
Yeah it's totally the EU that us being unreasonable here...




And you guys do understand that the UK has been the main obstacle to the development of any meaningful EU defence structures to ingratiate itself with US administrations right?
It's important to understand that EU minus UK completely changes the game on defence cooperation and integration on an EU level.

And if the EUs ambitions were as lacklustre as suggeted here then why do the US and by extension UK get so worke up about it all the time?

Lord Jim
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Re: EU Combined Military thread.

Post by Lord Jim »

Well excluding China was and still is a good idea so nothing wrong there. But you do realise the satellites for the EU's GPS are bring built in this country don't you. As for Mali, no one else stepped in at the begging to help the French get their forces in place quick but the UK because we could and wanted to. Yes we now only have a small contingent in Mali, but we are trying to recover after deploying a reinforced Brigade in Afghanistan as well as forces in Iraq and so on.

The EU could make a difference if it increases its defence spending to cover the capability gaps that the US provides to NATO formations. they had to bail the EU out in both the Balkans and Libya, because the EU, including the UK lack key capabilities, many of which the EU still lacks.

So my argument is not that the EU can't create its own effective military force structure, but whether it has the will to pay for it.

Gtal
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Re: EU Combined Military thread.

Post by Gtal »

Lord Jim wrote:Well excluding China was and still is a good idea so nothing wrong there. But you do realise the satellites for the EU's GPS are bring built in this country don't you. As for Mali, no one else stepped in at the begging to help the French get their forces in place quick but the UK because we could and wanted to. Yes we now only have a small contingent in Mali, but we are trying to recover after deploying a reinforced Brigade in Afghanistan as well as forces in Iraq and so on.

The EU could make a difference if it increases its defence spending to cover the capability gaps that the US provides to NATO formations. they had to bail the EU out in both the Balkans and Libya, because the EU, including the UK lack key capabilities, many of which the EU still lacks.

So my argument is not that the EU can't create its own effective military force structure, but whether it has the will to pay for it.

The satellites were built by multinational consortium,
OHB from Germany was the prime and SSTL, the major participating UK based SSTL is a wholly owned subsidiary
of Airbus which of course is controlled by Framce, Germany and Spain.
CGI is canadian owned I believe.

Look I'm not denying that UK expertise contributed to the effort but uk was neither the main player here, nor fo6e that matter was it's expertise irreplaceable.

As evidenced by the fact that the EU executed the restructuring of supply chains before the original Brexit day instead of buying time to buil up expertiseby allowing the UK to continue to contribute during the transition period.

Why do you keep going on about the logistical support of the french? Is that the most significant UK contribution you can think of?
And helping France out there was the least the UK could do after the french had been covering maritime patrol duties for the UK for years for example.


And lol why am I even answering anymore?

BOSNIA?????
In 1996??
THERE WAS NO CSSP/ CFSP UNTIL 1998!!!
BECAUSE THE US AND IT'S MINIME(the UK) INSISTED THAT NATO IS THE CORNERSTONE OF EUROPEAN DEFENCE AND FOR EUROPEAN COORDINATION IT WAS TOTALLY ADEQUATE TO HAVE THE WEU WHICH WAS BASED ON WEAK INTERGOVERNMENTALISM, THE UK'S PREFERRED FORTM OF COOPERATION BTW!!!
SO IT WAS THE WEU AND NATO THAT FAILED IN BOSNIA. AND THE WEU FAILED SO BAD IT'S ERSTWHILE CHAMPION THE UK SCRUBBED ANY MEMORY OFF IT APPARENTLY.

LYBIA WASN'T AN EU THING EITHER, MANY EU COUNTRIES OPPOSED THE CAMPAIGN.
IT WAS THE US, THE UK AND FRANCE AS A COALITION OF THE WILLING THAT CREATED THAT MESS AND ACCORDING TO THE AMERICANS THEY WERE LEADING!

Sorry for the CAPS @mods but wow come on! Talk about revisionism!

Lord Jim
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Re: EU Combined Military thread.

Post by Lord Jim »

Wow I must have hit a nerve or something. I'm not being revisionist, but having a discussion rather then an argument. my point as my last paragraph highlighted was whether the EU would be willing to pay for a military capability and force structure to match NATO's as it would have to compensate for the lack of the key capabilities and enablers that the US provide to NATO.

I avoided mentioning things like the likelihood that any operations by such a force would most likely require the unanimous support of ALL members of the EU, good luck with that, as would setting the military budget for the joint military force and so on. The only thing that has unified the EU over the past years has been Brexit so you can thank us later for that. :)

Gtal
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Re: EU Combined Military thread.

Post by Gtal »

What you were doing was taking the embarrassing failures of your beloved US coalitions/NATO and blaming them on the EU and then saying this was proof the EU was unfit for a role in Europes defence.
That's the definition of revisionism.

It's like watching Johnson talking about brexit. Just lie shamelessly and when you're called out on reality, refuse to acknowledge it and just waffle some other nonsense. I'm out.

Lord Jim
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Re: EU Combined Military thread.

Post by Lord Jim »

No the EU was originally responsible for operations in the Balkans, including the UK and we all messed up and it took NATO Command and Control capabilities and US resources to get things under control. We had a number of similar issues with operations in Libya, where the gaps in Europe's capabilities were again highlighted, being it lacked key enablers and force multipliers for example, and again the US had to provide these even though it initially did want to be involved stating that this was to be a European operation.

The EU can certainly have a key role in the Defence of Europe, but why would it want to do so separately form NATO. Tis means the costly process of basically duplicating what NATO already does, just to gain independence for non European NATO members interference in EU military actions. If the EU wishes to do this they if it has the will, especially to spend the considerable extra money to do so, but do they. Or are they simply relabelling existing NATO committed units as well as establishing formations that are barely more than paper entities until spend the money which may never happen. All great for PR but greatly restricted on what it can actually do.

In the end the UK will always be willing to offer what assistance it can to its allies, as will I imagine other non EU NATO states as long as the EU is not ashamed to ask for such help.

J. Tattersall

Re: EU Combined Military thread.

Post by J. Tattersall »

RAF Chinooks support French Recovery Operations following French Mirage jet crash in Mali
https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/ra ... h-in-mali/

J. Tattersall

Re: EU Combined Military thread.

Post by J. Tattersall »

Gtal wrote:INSISTED THAT NATO IS THE CORNERSTONE OF EUROPEAN DEFENCE AND FOR EUROPEAN COORDINATION IT WAS TOTALLY ADEQUATE TO HAVE THE WEU WHICH WAS BASED ON WEAK INTERGOVERNMENTALISM
Out of interest both CFSP and CSDP are both still intergovernmental too, the European Council having recently not taken up a 'passerelle clause' based approach to introduce limited QMV.

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