RFA Diligence

[ArmChairCivvy]

Let's see what "they"
webmaster@parliament.uk say.
- asked about the last page as all the rest of the information has been available, and blacking it out would provide no benefit.

[Jake1992]

Out of curiosity Diligence will need to be replaced soon, with it being a capability that really shouldn't be gapped ( like HMG seem to like to do at the min ) a replacement needs to be looked at.

Would using RRS sir David Attenborough as a base for the design be any good ?
It has the polar strength hull so would not need the support of a icebreak witch is required, as well as s large heli pad. The hull could be extended to around say 150m in length and the internal lay out modified.

Would it be a good starting point instead of starting from scratch ?

[shark bait]

Wouldn't be surprised if Diligence is never replaced, and we see more agreements with onshore facilities.

The Polar ship could make a good starting point, but there are tonnes off offshore support vessels that may be a closer starting point.

Again I would be surprised to see some of those support vessels contracted to the MOD to supplement expanded shore facilities around the world.

My favourite concept however has to be the BMT float-on float-off barge;

[marktigger]

diligence will be replaced in time probably after another trip to an op at the end of a long supply line with limited support facilities available.
Falklands showed the need for her but recent ops haven't needed it so the planners feel they can dispense with her. the wheel will go full circle in the future.
we had repair ships in the past Ramehead and Berryhead were the last generation both cast in the 60's/70's

[shark bait]

Falklands shows very little, it was 35 years ago, nothing that was true back then can be considered true today without a rigorous reassessment.

[Jake1992]

Is it really wise though not to replace her and become wholly reliant on allies being kind enough to allow us to use their shores ?

[marktigger]

Is it really wise though not to replace her and become wholly reliant on allies being kind enough to allow us to use their shores ?

nope but was it sensible to retire Ramehead and Berryhead?

politicians, accountants,civil servants and Defence chiefs don't seam to look at the history

[shark bait]

When was the last time Diligence was used properly?

Retiring her is sensible, no point paying for a ship that's never used. The underhand way she was retired is where the problem lies.

Yes its good to have the capacity in reserve, but with so much reserve available in civilian fleets its difficult to justify the MOD shelling out for it, especially when more important things are left unfunded.

[ArmChairCivvy]

When was the last time Diligence was used properly?

I got the impression (cannot remember from where) that she was used like some modern-day submarine tender
... could have been that there were repairs to be made but if so and what kind not publicly disclosed?

[Rambo]

She hasn't been used much in the last 6-7 years judging by the time she has been alongside at Birkenhead. I don't totally agree with disposing of her, but just like in 1982 this vessel was still with 'Stena'? and was requisitioned during the campaign. I suspect that the same would happen again if needed. I think that was the MOD line like it or lump it that we would hire out commercial vessels as and when needed which probably costs less than running Diligence permanently.

[abc123]

She hasn't been used much in the last 6-7 years judging by the time she has been alongside at Birkenhead. I don't totally agree with disposing of her, but just like in 1982 this vessel was still with 'Stena'? and was requisitioned during the campaign. I suspect that the same would happen again if needed. I think that was the MOD line like it or lump it that we would hire out commercial vessels as and when needed which probably costs less than running Diligence permanently.

How many similar vessels there is under Red pennant?

[ArmChairCivvy]

How many similar vessels there is under Red pennant?

They use tugs,

[whitelancer]

How many similar vessels there is under Red pennant?

They use tugs,

I think abc was referring to the Red Duster!

Falklands shows very little, it was 35 years ago, nothing that was true back then can be considered true today without a rigorous reassessment.

I think you dismiss the Falklands War too lightly. It may have been 35 years ago but their are still many lessons relevant today, both in terms of equipment and the conduct of war.

[shark bait]

Yes, but people jump straight to the Falklands at every opportunity, preparing for the last war etc....

[Gabriele]

A repair ship / submarine tender was a big Royal Navy advantage that no one else in Europe has. Now that too is gone, and another bit of that "global" nature of the RN is lost.

It is not a matter of "last war". Things are still going to break down at sea. Submarines are still going to need supplies, torpedoes and repairs. The RN had a mean to do it far away from home and without having to tow a ship to some friendly port somewhere. Now it can't.

And unlike the french navy, italian navy or others it does not have ocean-going tugs either, so even the towing bit, was it to ever be needed, would mean calling SERCO or someone else.

[Timmymagic]

It is not a matter of "last war". Things are still going to break down at sea. Submarines are still going to need supplies, torpedoes and repairs. The RN had a mean to do it far away from home and without having to tow a ship to some friendly port somewhere. Now it can't.

I agree. Given the longstanding commitment in the Persian Gulf for a Tender/HQ vessel even with the Bahrain base it makes sense for the RFA to replace Diligence. Particularly with the shipping industry in a state at present. There are real bargains to be had out there, especially on the type of ships we would need.

[abc123]

A repair ship / submarine tender was a big Royal Navy advantage that no one else in Europe has. Now that too is gone, and another bit of that "global" nature of the RN is lost.

It is not a matter of "last war". Things are still going to break down at sea. Submarines are still going to need supplies, torpedoes and repairs. The RN had a mean to do it far away from home and without having to tow a ship to some friendly port somewhere. Now it can't.

And unlike the french navy, italian navy or others it does not have ocean-going tugs either, so even the towing bit, was it to ever be needed, would mean calling SERCO or someone else.

Agreed.

[whitelancer]

Yes, but people jump straight to the Falklands at every opportunity, preparing for the last war etc....

While Generals and others are often accused of preparing for the last war, in truth its more usual for them to ignore the lessons from the previous war or select only those lessons that support their own particular view. We then find them having to relearn the lessons from the past over and over. How well did the British Army and Government learn the lessons from Iraq and apply them to Afghanistan?

[Gabriele]

TD had a very good post ages ago about how the British Army forgot about mines, if not IEDs, several times over, every time ending up beginning from scratch and buying new mine-protected vehicles because those it had purchased the time before had been quickly thrown out of the window at the end of immediate need.

That was a good example. Another giant case is the sniper. It took Afghanistan to bring back snipers into focus, after yet another period of complete neglect. Unbelieavable.
I'm sure we could come up with several other cases with very little effort. AEW in the Navy (still heading for a gap, although partial, if you look at CROWSNEST dates); ASW, increasingly heading the wrong direction once again...

[marktigger]

[quote="Gabriele"]
That was a good example. Another giant case is the sniper. It took Afghanistan to bring back snipers into focus, after yet another period of complete neglect. Unbelieavable.
I/quote]

Actually gabriele you are very wrong on that score the army and royal marines certainly have promoted sniping for many years! What came into focus in Afghanistan was the poor choice in ammunition for the standard infantry rifle. And the need for intermediate to long range like 7.62mm meant the need for the Designated marksman rifle. all these shortcommings were being highlighted in Ulster in the 90's The LSW was being used in the role of DMR along the border along with LMG and GPMG being deployed in larger numbers to give sections reach.
L96 rifle was already in service and the L115 was well down the road to deployment pre afghanistan.......But we digress

[whitelancer]

I think we are getting a bit (well a long way) off thread. But I think I must add that Gabriele gives some good examples, but I was also thinking in a much wider sense about how to fight Wars. Take the Principles of War- The distillation of lessons learned from past Wars. All officers learn them (and all Politian's should), but they are consistently ignored. In Afghanistan I can think of at least 5 Principles that were ignored. Hardly a surprise that things go wrong.

[marktigger]

diligence has left liverpool for portsmouth and disposal

[Repulse]

Does anyone know the state of RFA Diligence?

It might be cheaper to buy / convert a new vessel, but on paper she looks to be a good trials vessel for the new USV MCM kit, and more importantly we have her already. Moving her to the gulf as the MCM (manned and unmanned) mothership would free up a RFA Cardigan Bay to return to LRG duties.

The ship returning to service maybe pure fantasy, but I’ve always wondered why she is berthed within 3 Basin rather than in Fareham Creek like other RFAs that were disposed.

[Jensy]

Does anyone know the state of RFA Diligence?

Funny you should ask, was considering her last night after seeing the Serco ship Northern River on Twitter...

Unfortunately it looks like her situation has deteriorated, somewhat recently. Evidently boredom is staring to set in with the Navy, just as with the rest of the country...

Royal Navy sailors 'wrecked' RFA Diligence with crowbars and hammers, reports say as navy confirms investigation

THE Royal Navy has confirmed an investigation is underway after sailors reportedly boarded ship before going on a ‘wrecking spree’ with hammers and crowbars.

Technical equipment including radars, sonars and communications equipment are thought have already been removed from the 10,000-tonne vessel.

https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/defen ... on-2990721

[ArmChairCivvy]

Now we can proceed to discuss the functions; how they are to be covered (if at all) in the future
- is forward basing the 100% answer?

Take our SSNs EoS? The docking facilities in Singapore/ DG/ Bahrain are modest and the dry docks in Oman are not a secure (base) facility
- what if one is damaged in that wide area (that will ? see more ops, sorry operating, going forward)